Trying to Make to Predict Performance Against a Skull

[HumptyDumpty]

I wasn't sure where to ask this, hopefully this is the right place.
I'm interested in testing the performance of several "weak" rounds, such as 32 S&W and 25 ACP from diminutive pocket-guns, against a human skull. There are some very nice dummy heads and bodies available for ballistic testing, but they are expensive. Given the breadth of knowledge present on this forum, I was wondering if anybody knew what would be required to make an accurate analogue. Can I get useful information from the bones at my local butcher shop, or is there some other material that would work better?

[Chena]

I doubt that there is an exact analog for living human cranial bone and tissue. You might try searching the forensics literature using Google Scholar for medical autopsy and emergency treatment literature.

[racepres]

Hog??? Cattle??
Never gave it much thought as most Slaughter houses by me use a 22RF, bang stick...right between the eyes... Pole Axes 'em...

[M-Tecs]

Actual accounts indicate perpendicular hits will penetrate. At some point they will skid as the angle increases. I know someone the was shot in the forehead just below his helmet with a 9mm. The shot came for below him and skidded along his skull than followed the shape of his helmet an hitting the top of his body armor on his back.

Having many slaughtered hogs and cattle with a 22RF the spot that allows for penetration is relatively small.

[GhostHawk]

Like M-Tecs I have killed hogs, cattle, horses with a .22lr, some rifle, some with pistol.
I helped a vet put down an old mare with a Heritage pistol. He told me how to make the X, right eye to left ear, left eye to right ear. Where they crossed was the spot. Tricky part was waiting until the head was neither raised nor lowered.

My first shot on a pig failed because it had its nose up. Second one worked though.

Even if the pocket pistols don't always have the speed of the .22lr, they do tend to have boolits that are twice as heavy or more. Instead of 36 or 40 grains they tend to shoot 90 to 110 grain bullets. To me that spells better penetration through bone. For penetration, too much speed is contra-indicated. Can actually lower penetration.

[HumptyDumpty]

Interesting notes about slaughtering livestock; I have no experience with that, so it is helpful to hear. The two main drivers her, are my Walther Model 5 (2" barrel, 25 ACP), and a snub-nosed top-break in 32 S&W Short (also 2", with a cylinder too short to be helpful). On the rare occasions when I actually carry these tiny pistols, I've wondered whether it would be better to direct their miniature fury towards the thoracic cavity, or the cranium, especially with soft lead in the 32. I recall vividly an account in one of Jim Cirillo's book, of LRN 38 Special failing to penetrate a criminal's skull. Of course, that may have been the equivalent of winning the lottery.

[jdfoxinc]

Jorge Sprag " The Slingshot Channel " on YT uses a coconut cast inside ballistic gelatin.

[HumptyDumpty]

Jorge Sprag " The Slingshot Channel " on YT uses a coconut cast inside ballistic gelatin.

I like that idea. At the very least, if the round fails, I know the odds aren't in my favor.

[Photog]

Not exactly a skull, but Paul Harrell on youtube has a meat target that he tests with all kinds of ammo. Gives some information regarding penetration.

[Head Shot]

Hello:
YOUR MOTHER INLAW :-)
I didnt type that :-)
Head Shot

[HumptyDumpty]

So, I called up Ballistic Dummy Labs, and they agreed to sell me one of their skulls, without any of the "brains", for $50. That's a fraction of what the completed heads normally cost, so it seemed justifiable to me. I intend to make a video comparing results with the skull, a coconut, and a section of cow tibia or femur, if I can find a butcher to sell me one. I'll post a link here, once I get everything put together.

[M-Tecs]

For me the question is using your listed firearms can you hit the skull square enough to not skid? That would be a 2 1/2" to 3" target under high stress?

[HumptyDumpty]

For me the question is using your listed firearms can you hit the skull square enough to not skid? That would be a 2 1/2" to 3" target under high stress?

At the close ranges these guns are intended for, there are certainly scenarios wherein I would feel confident in my ability to hit the head, especially with the revolver. I honestly don't know how close to 90 degrees the impact must be, and with such low-powered rounds, similar problems could be presented by ribs, items in pockets, or features of clothing, as happened with president Mckinley. I'll try to hit the skull and coconut at multiple angles.

[GhostHawk]

At the range the RSO on duty upon seeing my NAA Ranger II 5 shot revolver in .22mag commented "that's a Nose gun, wait till he is close enough, stick it in his nose. Lead him where you want him. Let him go as long as he is no longer trying to harm you or yours.

Seemed to make sense to me. Also a part of me would like to add "Are you ready to wake up in Hell tomorrow morning? If not you might want to consider some major life changes.

[racepres]

Interesting notes about slaughtering livestock; I have no experience with that, so it is helpful to hear. The two main drivers her, are my Walther Model 5 (2" barrel, 25 ACP), and a snub-nosed top-break in 32 S&W Short (also 2", with a cylinder too short to be helpful). On the rare occasions when I actually carry these tiny pistols, I've wondered whether it would be better to direct their miniature fury towards the thoracic cavity, or the cranium, especially with soft lead in the 32. I recall vividly an account in one of Jim Cirillo's book, of LRN 38 Special failing to penetrate a criminal's skull. Of course, that may have been the equivalent of winning the lottery.

Some Scribes would have us al Packing a 45 Race pistol, or going unarmed... the 22rf is much more potent than Most give it credit for..
I prefer to trust it more so than either the 25 or the 32S&W...the 32S&W Long however, loaded to the same Pressure as the 32S&W, that I trust...Maybe I should Test My Theory...Nah...someone either Has, or Will....

[hoodat]

Years ago, a guy I worked with at the mill showed up one Monday morning with a bandaid taped near center of his forehead. I asked him what happened, and he said his crazy girlfriend shot him in the head. Story was .25 ACP from a few feet away.

I was kind of skeptical, but a few days later, off came the bandage, and -- it looked believable. Horrible round divit, not a grazing or glancing shot. :shock: jd

[jdfoxinc]

A friend's brother is a trauma surgeon in a major metropolitan hospital. He states that more people have been killed with. 22LR than any other caliber.

[Jungle Dave]

Not sure this will help the discussion in any way, but a friend of mine had to put down a donkey that had become quite insane. Estimated distance of 8 paces with a 9mm and fmj. The bullet bounced or skidded right off the skull without any effect at all except perhaps giving the poor animal more problems in the upstairs department. A lot depends on the angle of the shot. Human skulls are a lot less formidable, but with a .25 ACP it could do the same thing. The .32 S&W, I would tend to think would do better, as pure lead has a tendency to 'grab' better and break through. Just some thoughts.

[BLAHUT]

I wasn't sure where to ask this, hopefully this is the right place.
I'm interested in testing the performance of several "weak" rounds, such as 32 S&W and 25 ACP from diminutive pocket-guns, against a human skull. There are some very nice dummy heads and bodies available for ballistic testing, but they are expensive. Given the breadth of knowledge present on this forum, I was wondering if anybody knew what would be required to make an accurate analogue. Can I get useful information from the bones at my local butcher shop, or is there some other material that would work better?

In the past, when talking with medical professionals and ballistic experts, consensus has led to, a firm head of cabbage, will supposedly duplicate the human scull, close enough for penetration testing..

[HumptyDumpty]

In the past, when talking with medical professionals and ballistic experts, consensus has led to, a firm head of cabbage, will supposedly duplicate the human scull, close enough for penetration testing..

No kidding? Well, I can certainly add that to the list of items for comparison. I'm really looking forward to conducting this test. The dummy skull should ship sometime next week, and my local supermarket can provide all the necessary produce.

[M-Tecs]

Not sure this will help the discussion in any way, but a friend of mine had to put down a donkey that had become quite insane. Estimated distance of 8 paces with a 9mm and fmj. The bullet bounced or skidded right off the skull without any effect at all except perhaps giving the poor animal more problems in the upstairs department. A lot depends on the angle of the shot. Human skulls are a lot less formidable, but with a .25 ACP it could do the same thing. The .32 S&W, I would tend to think would do better, as pure lead has a tendency to 'grab' better and break through. Just some thoughts.

While I have never put down a donkey I have put down several horses. It's the same as hogs and cattle. A 22LR works fine if you hit them in the thin spot going into the brain. I've been told from the side in the ear works the same but I have never seen or done it. I started being the designated shooter for hogs and cattle at 7 or 8 years old when my uncle was having a hard time seeing the front sight. The extended family would get together and slaughter hogs and cattle in the spring and in the fall. When I was 7 or 8 he missed the mark several times with the 22 LR rifle on a steer and the bullets did flatten and basically fell straight down. That was a very long time ago and I don't remember if there was any bounce but I clearly remember watching the bullets flatten and fall. I have used a 22 Mag a couple of times on baloney bulls. I did use a 7mm Remington Mag on a car struck bull once. I did use a 12 gauge slug on a couple of others hit by cars. As a kid a worked 2 1/2 as a very small-town gas station. Car cattle, deer and antelope collisions were common. The wrecker had a single shot 22 and a single shot 12 gauge for that purpose. While technically not legal for game animals game warden and cops had no issue with putting down animal at the scene of a collision.

Again I have not seen it, but I have heard same failed results the with 38/357's when the hits were off the mark.

I have watched Buffalo being slaughtered with a 375 Winchester Levergun. Missing the brain will penetrate but it will not put them down. That resulted in a charge and the second shot hit the mark and did the job. Dad was the shooter. I still have both bullets.

With the low cost of subcompact 380's that is the smallest SD round I am willing to carry. I do carry a 22 LR as a camp gun at times but the intend targets would be rapid skunks or coyotes. If its two legged SD its 380 or larger.

Good video here on the 25 ACP

https://americanshootingjournal.com/is-this-25-acp-mouse-gun-enough-for-personal-defense/#:~:text=The%20ideal%20penetration%20is%20%E2%80%9 Ctwelve%20inches%E2%80%9D%20according%20to,to%20ha ve%20to%20stop%20someone%20in%20its%20track.

[elmacgyver0]

Gotta watch out for those rapid skunks, quick little suckers.

[M-Tecs]

Gotta watch out for those rapid skunks, quick little suckers.

My cousin was mauled by a rabid skunk when she was five or six years old. That was in the 70's when you needed the 21 shots in the stomach. She tried running away and fell down. She was in a swimsuit. First bite was in the ankle than stomach than face and hands. She still has some visible scaring on her face.

Shooting rabid skunks to protect kids and dogs is much preferred to pulling them off with your bare hands.

Couple of examples of adults here https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Delmar-man-gets-rabid-skunk-attack-with-his-17427766.php

[Messy bear]

I have pondered a similar project. I thought about some sort of building material somewhat like hard plastic. Haven’t tryed any yet. Considered putting pvc pipe in wet newsprint to simulate bone in flesh. Haven’t tryed that yet either.
But there should be a cheap widely available material out there that would be repeatable. Actual bone is going to be hard to make repeatable. And that’s the crutch I believe. Good luck and let us know what you find!

[John Taylor]

I know from experience that a 44 round ball from a cap and ball pistol will stop a wild hog. It was a strait on shot from about 3 feet. Didn't have any trouble penetrating the skull.

[Electrod47]

Go to a Sam's or Costco and get you a 1 gallon metal can of cooked grits and bang away, should tell you what you want to know.

[Ernest]

Angle of impact is critical. No one would tell you that a 30-06 with 165 grain Hornady is inadequate for a head shot but I have seen a mid sized wild hog get shot in the forehead while it's nose was up looking at the hunter. This made a very shallow angle for bullet impact. At the shot the pig went down, you could hear the bullet whine off as it ricocheted off the pigs skull. As we stood there congratulating our selfs on on what amazing hunters we were the hog jumped up and ran off never to be recovered! The medical literature is full of instances of bullets big and small ricocheting off of human skulls.

The neck is a far better target to stop a fight. All the tissue is soft and a bullet hitting the spine in the cervical area will almost always cause at least temporary spinal cord shock causing the attacker to stop his assault instantly.

[jmorris]

I have shot hundreds of pigs in our traps a .22lr does the trick just fine in the right spot.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=314765&d=1685971310

I trust results on them more than I would shooting at dry bones.

[Texas by God]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230607/3ef39456b2d2ef3f4bbb2e98eb0a4ca9.jpg
This one died about a month ago. From Johnson grass bloat.
But that .380 is meaner than it looks….

[Earl54]

Uncle Sam gave me a suppressed Ruger 22 auto to use in my former occupation. In human skulls the fore head is the strongest part, eye sockets, temple/ear,and base of the skull are your targets. 90 degree angle is the best. Round nose ammo has a better chance of skidding/glancing off if the angle is less than 90 degrees. Even 38 special round nose has a habit of failure. A few years back there was a 25 acp SD load with a mono metal bullet with a cup point to help penetration.

[Barry54]

Look carefully at the bullet shape of the bullet of the Federal 22 Punch defensive ammunition.

I’d wager they put some research into it.