.45 auto - "CB bear loads"?

[signalcorpsoperator]

Morning all,

I've heard rumblings of some heavy loads for .45 auto, reportedly there was some writings doe this done back in the 80s?

Anyone have any data like this they'd be willing to share? Just curious to see what's out there. :)

Thanks!
Tom

[gc45]

In all respect, why would you want to?

[megasupermagnum]

255gr swc 8.5 gr Bluedot 1.210" OAL. It's a listed load, but I can't recall where. That should be a standard pressure load.

[huntinlever]

Not a handload, but my son bought some 45 ACP + P "Outdoorsman" from Buffalo Bore (255 gr. Hard Cast FN @ 925 fps/M.E. 484 ft lbs). Supposed to be pretty stiff but to be honest my son didn't find it much out of line with other ammo he shoots. FWIW. Can't comment on the cartridge for bear (not sure if you mean hunting, or defense), not knowledgable enough. My go to there was .44 mag loaded hot, and hard cast WFN bullets.

[Electrod47]

How big of a bear?....Treed Black Bear or a charging Grizzly at bad breath range.

[signalcorpsoperator]

Afternoon everyone,

No particular reason, just general curiosity more than anything honestly. :) I've got a .44 Mag and a .45 Colt, was just curious to see if there were/are any "thumper" loads out there for the old ACP.

Appreciate the info gents!
Tom

[frank505]

8 grains of power pistol and a 230 truncated or the wonderful saeco 058.

[justindad]

There’s load data for Ramshot Rnforcer in .45ACP, but they removed this from the newer manuals.

[ddixie884]

Speer #11 and #13 both have the Speer 260gr jhp under stout loads of Herco and Unique probably at least as stout as factory .45Colt.............

[725]

ddixie884 beat me to it. The Speer manual details the use of the 260 gr. bullet, normally used in .45 Colt and its use in the .45 ACP platform.

[charlie b]

Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman bullets if you really want to. I'd still not want to wrestle a grizzly with one.

.45acp +P
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=395

.45super
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=397

[deltaenterprizes]

45ACP ain’t the cartridge for bear!
Nowhere near the penetration needed to get into the vitals !
I read about a Grizzly bear that was taken out by the park rangers and when they skinned it they found every imaginable handgun bullet and quite a few rifle bullets in him.
A friend did research and found that the bullets need to go through about 12” of hair, hide fat and muscle before being able to damage a vital organ.

[jreidthompson1]

There’s load data for Ramshot Rnforcer in .45ACP, but they removed this from the newer manuals.https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Fast+loads+for+the+.45+ACP%3A+using+ramshot+enforc er+and+230-grain...-a0495829693

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/fast-loads-for-the-45-acp/99214

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

[The Kid]

I’d take anything hard enough to not expand but soft enough to not fragment, with a flat nose, and drive it 900-1000 fps and feel reasonably well armed. 200gr wadcutters driven 1000fps will penetrate a long ways in an animal.

Plus contrary to popular belief, most grizzly bears do not weigh half a ton, 350-500lb would be a much more common weight. They also do not have particularly heavy bones, the bones of cattle and large ungulates such as moose and elk are much heavier.

[RJM52]

If one checks the AmmoLand website, they have a half dozen .45 ACP black and grizzly bear defense shootings...no failures...

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/06/handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attacks-104-cases-97-effective/#axzz7OqMMNaDn

When carrying a .45 ACP or Colt in the woods it is with the original Keith Lyman 452423 245 grain SWC...velocity is 950-1100 fps depending on the gun..

Bob

[Larry Gibson]

For a bear defense load with a 45 ACP, particularly in a M1911, a hard cast Lee 230 TC or a jacketed 230 gr TC over a +P load of 7.5 gr Unique is what I would carry and have carried in bear country. I also use a 20 lb recoil spring in my M1911 and use 8 round mags. That's 9 rounds in the pistol which are accurate and controllable for very fast, accurate shooting.

[Beerd]

Larry,
I'm fresh out of Unique but have a Lee 230 TC mould and a bottle of Blue Dot.
Any suggestions?
..

[Larry Gibson]

10.7 gr Blue Dot under the Lee 230 TC is a top end standard load. Under a 230 jacketed it sneaks into +P range. I should also mention with such loads I use one of those buffers that fit between the recoil spring and guide.

[Hamish]

I’m a .45acp lover but grizzlies? Give me a hot 10mm,,,,,better yet, take a 10mm auto and turn it into a 11.5x25mm acp. Chopped BR brass should do nicely.

[txbirdman]

For a bear defense load with a 45 ACP, particularly in a M1911, a hard cast Lee 230 TC or a jacketed 230 gr TC over a +P load of 7.5 gr Unique is what I would carry and have carried in bear country. I also use a 20 lb recoil spring in my M1911 and use 8 round mags. That's 9 rounds in the pistol which are accurate and controllable for very fast, accurate shooting.

Larry,
Can you give us the velocity on that load? I assume you’re using it in a Government model rather than Commander.
Thanks

[GregLaROCHE]

45ACP ain’t the cartridge for bear!
Nowhere near the penetration needed to get into the vitals !
I read about a Grizzly bear that was taken out by the park rangers and when they skinned it they found every imaginable handgun bullet and quite a few rifle bullets in him.
A friend did research and found that the bullets need to go through about 12” of hair, hide fat and muscle before being able to damage a vital organ.

You’re right about that!

[OS OK]

:bigsmyl2: A Bear fight with a 45ACP in the 1911 is just like an Indian fight with the old Colt SAA 45 Colt...the wise always said..."Save the last cartridge for yourself!" :bigsmyl2:

[charlie b]

Except....several of the large bears have been killed with marginal guns. Not one round stops, but, the bears ended up dead on the spot. The most notable was the guide who shot one at close range with his subcompact 9mm. IIRC 7 rounds and most penetrated to the lungs and heart.

OTOH, an old story was from a famous gun writer who was making the claim that a .30-06 wasn't enough to hunt grizzlies. The bear took 6 shots and was still walking around. The .300H&H was deemed superior since it finally killed the bear, but, it took 4 more shots.

Me? I don't go out in grizzly country. :)

[dla]

I reload the 45acp and I won't carry it in bear country because I have other cartridges better suited. Apart from the common semi wadcutter, the 45acp chamber won't handle a penetrating bullet profile.
IMHO of course.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
Can you give us the velocity on that load? I assume you’re using it in a Government model rather than Commander.
Thanks

That +P load [7.5 gr Unique under the 230 TC bullet] runs 960 fps out of my Series 70 M1911. I have killed 2 BBs with the 45 ACP, one with a Combat Commander and the other with the M1911.

[Gray Fox]

Larry:

Can an S&W 25-6 or later revolver handle that +P load safely? I've got 500 of the ACME Bullet Co. HiTek coated 230 TC boolets. I'm much more into revolvers these days than my 1911s. I lucked into 4# of Unique recently. GF

[RJM52]

Talked to one of the Techs at Buffalo Bore...they have a whole following that use their .45 Super loads in late model S&W revolvers, including the Tech I spoke with... So +P should not be a problem...

I used +P loads in a 70s vintage 25-2 for 20 years with no issues. Have also used them in a Mountain Gun and 625-7 PC 5"...

[35 Whelen]

255gr swc 8.5 gr Bluedot 1.210" OAL. It's a listed load, but I can't recall where. That should be a standard pressure load.

I found this very load in an annual publication called 45 Auto, of which there were two published back in the early '80's. I tried this load 30+ years ago with a generic commercial 255 gr. SWC in my '76 production Colt Series 70 Gov't Model and it averaged almost exactly 950 fps on the nose from the Colt's 5" barrel. Recoil was quite exciting and much to my surprise it was quite accurate as I was able to put a full magazine into a 7" group at 100 yds., off a bench, of course. I tried the same load again just a few years ago with newer Blue Dot and a home-cast SWC from a Lyman 454424 mold and it ran closer to 925 fps, don't recall how it grouped without looking in my load log (that's in the shop...I'm in the house...in my skivvies).


I’m a .45acp lover but grizzlies? Give me a hot 10mm,,,,,better yet, take a 10mm auto and turn it into a 11.5x25mm acp. Chopped BR brass should do nicely.

I frequently read statements such as yours regarding the 10mm on internet forums. May I throw in a little perspective?

I own a 137 year old '73 Winchester chambered in 38 WCF, it's uses exactly the same diameter bullet as the 10mm. Loaded with a 192 gr. FP bullet (RCBS 40-180-FN) over a case full of Swiss 3Fg black powder (Or ~ 9.0 gr. of Unique), said bullet averages 1410 fps, significantly more powerful than a 10mm from a handgun. Yet if I were to tell someone I was going to carry this rifle for grizzly bear defense, they'd probably give me a ride to the funny farm. :kidding:

35W

[pmer]

I had this out with myself last summer and concluded that I'm better off hitting with my +P .40 Smith & Wesson than missing with a .44 double action. In fact it's almost like a laser in comparison.

[ddixie884]

I found this very load in an annual publication called 45 Auto, of which there were two published back in the early '80's. I tried this load 30+ years ago with a generic commercial 255 gr. SWC in my '76 production Colt Series 70 Gov't Model and it averaged almost exactly 950 fps on the nose from the Colt's 5" barrel. Recoil was quite exciting and much to my surprise it was quite accurate as I was able to put a full magazine into a 7" group at 100 yds., off a bench, of course. I tried the same load again just a few years ago with newer Blue Dot and a home-cast SWC from a Lyman 454424 mold and it ran closer to 925 fps, don't recall how it grouped without looking in my load log (that's in the shop...I'm in the house...in my skivvies).



I frequently read statements such as yours regarding the 10mm on internet forums. May I throw in a little perspective?

I own a 137 year old '73 Winchester chambered in 38 WCF, it's uses exactly the same diameter bullet as the 10mm. Loaded with a 192 gr. FP bullet (RCBS 40-180-FN) over a case full of Swiss 3Fg black powder (Or ~ 9.0 gr. of Unique), said bullet averages 1410 fps, significantly more powerful than a 10mm from a handgun. Yet if I were to tell someone I was going to carry this rifle for grizzly bear defense, they'd probably give me a ride to the funny farm. :kidding:

35W

Thats what I'm talkin-bout..................

[megasupermagnum]

I found this very load in an annual publication called 45 Auto, of which there were two published back in the early '80's. I tried this load 30+ years ago with a generic commercial 255 gr. SWC in my '76 production Colt Series 70 Gov't Model and it averaged almost exactly 950 fps on the nose from the Colt's 5" barrel. Recoil was quite exciting and much to my surprise it was quite accurate as I was able to put a full magazine into a 7" group at 100 yds., off a bench, of course. I tried the same load again just a few years ago with newer Blue Dot and a home-cast SWC from a Lyman 454424 mold and it ran closer to 925 fps, don't recall how it grouped without looking in my load log (that's in the shop...I'm in the house...in my skivvies).



I frequently read statements such as yours regarding the 10mm on internet forums. May I throw in a little perspective?

I own a 137 year old '73 Winchester chambered in 38 WCF, it's uses exactly the same diameter bullet as the 10mm. Loaded with a 192 gr. FP bullet (RCBS 40-180-FN) over a case full of Swiss 3Fg black powder (Or ~ 9.0 gr. of Unique), said bullet averages 1410 fps, significantly more powerful than a 10mm from a handgun. Yet if I were to tell someone I was going to carry this rifle for grizzly bear defense, they'd probably give me a ride to the funny farm. :kidding:

35W

I think that load was right around 850-875 fps in my slightly shorter barrel of 4". I like like 10mm auto myself just fine, but people need to get real on what they have. A 10mm auto is pretty much 1:1 a 357 magnum, nothing more, nothing less. Yeah, a 200 gr bullet at 1200 fps from a semi auto is cool, definitely effective. If you gave a 45 acp a 5 1/2" or 6" barrel like most 10mm's, it could definitely send a 200gr bullet close to 1100 fps. My 4" barrel with Aliant's book load of 10.5 gr Bluedot is pretty much right on 1000 fps. That's just standard pressure stuff, not even going to +p.

Again, nothing against 10mm auto, but it doesn't get you THAT much more than a 45 acp, plus you have to deal with all the things that come with 10mm auto such as guns being pretty much all steel framed and heavy. The 1911's, Glock 20, Sig P220 (10mm), EAA Witness, they are all at or over 40 ounces. There's a number of light, but full size options in 45 acp out there that you just can't get in 10mm auto. My plain old Sig P220 in 45 acp has an aluminum frame gets it right down to 30 ounces.

Is the extra 100-150 fps REALLY worth that much? I won't judge. I love 10mm.

[Abert Rim]

This thread has me trying to recall loads for the .45 ACP using the Lee 452-255 RF. Think I used Unique or Universal, but also have Blue Dot on hand. From my range scrap alloy, the Lee boolit runs about 260 grains.