RCBS FL sizing die - cams over, with case in, won't raise completely

[huntinlever]

This is really dumb and I'm sure I'm having a senior moment. Setting up RCBS FL dies for 30-06, this time just to get a baseline before measuring headspace taking once fired brass and bumping shoulder. Just FL sizing per RCBS instructions.

Shellholder 3, raise ram, just kiss, back off ram, turn in 1/8-1/4, lower ram, cams over. I deprime with a Lee Universal deprimer so the RCBS depriming stem depth is not important, though it's roughly 3/16" or so.

Place a lubed deprimed case into the holder, raise ram....and case gets stopped solid with about 1/2" about between the shellholder/ram and press. Case is not fully sized. For the life of me I can't figure out what's going on.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Just possible that it's the wrong die for some other cartridge.

DG

[huntinlever]

Just possible that it's the wrong die for some other cartridge.

DG

That's what I wondered but at least the die is stamped properly - FL 30-06 Springfield, 22. I even removed the expander plug/stem completely, and the case goes no further. Stuck about the same place. Am I missing something, or is it possible they simply mis-stamped the die and it's the wrong cartridge?

[M-Tecs]

If the depriming stem and expander ball is backed into the die enough that it's in the neck area that will bind it up.

[huntinlever]

If the depriming stem and expander ball is backed into the die enough that it's in the neck area that will bind it up.

OK, thanks, that's interesting.

The stem and expander ball are as I normally do (I think, now I'm wondering?) - depriming stem exposed about 3/16", and as I say it cams over fine.

311615

But this is as high as I can raise the case.

311616

edit: sorry about the rotated photos.

[hades]

That's what I wondered but at least the die is stamped properly - FL 30-06 Springfield, 22. I even removed the expander plug/stem completely, and the case goes no further. Stuck about the same place. Am I missing something, or is it possible they simply mis-stamped the die and it's the wrong cartridge?

I helped a new reloader trouble shoot an issue he was having with a brand new RCBS 9mm carbide die set scraping the hell out of the sides of his 9mm cases. To make a short story long, it was a 380 size die, or at least a 380 carbide ring. 380 doesn't taper like the 9mm does and it was working his 9mm over pretty bad after about half way down the case. He happened to have a 380 and one quick press stroke later confirmed that it just wasn't a 9mm size die.


I'm assuming this isn't your first rodeo and you are aware that there's a fair amount of pressure involved, depending on the press and the brass, to size after the neck hits that part of the die and sets the shoulder back.

I don't know if a guy could really tell just by looking up in there? But it being mislabeled is definitely not out of the realm of possibilities.

Not sure how 308 compares with 30 06 with neck angles and diameters, but if it is a mis stamp that would be my first cartridge I'd be looking at to see if it was a 308 win instead.

[huntinlever]

I helped a new reloader trouble shoot an issue he was having with a brand new RCBS 9mm carbide die set scraping the hell out of the sides of his 9mm cases. To make a short story long, it was a 380 size die, or at least a 380 carbide ring. 380 doesn't taper like the 9mm does and it was working his 9mm over pretty bad after about half way down the case. He happened to have a 380 and one quick press stroke later confirmed that it just wasn't a 9mm size die.


I'm assuming this isn't your first rodeo and you are aware that there's a fair amount of pressure involved, depending on the press and the brass, to size after the neck hits that part of the die and sets the shoulder back.

I don't know if a guy could really tell just by looking up in there? But it being mislabeled is definitely not out of the realm of possibilities.

Not sure how 308 compares with 30 06 and neck angles and diameters, but if it is a mis stamp that would be my first caliber I'd be looking at to see if it was a 308 win instead.

Thanks. Yeah, I can feel the expander move through the neck as per normal, but then the case stops dead cold. I did press a bit on one and the neck by the mouth was ringed pretty well, pressed in. Almost like it's trying to crimp, even though this is the sizing die?

[hades]

you could try and take some measurements and find where that neck angle starts with a piece of wire and compare to the 30 06. I'm guessing it's just for the 308 or something significantly shorter and you're just running out of die and about to crush the case. Probably that 'crimp' feel you're getting.

Pressing more is just shoving the mouth up through the pilot holt/expander threads if it is for a shorter 30 cal case.

[huntinlever]

you could try and take some measurements and find where that neck angle starts with a piece of wire and compare to the 30 06. I'm guessing it's just for the 308 or something significantly shorter and you're just running out of die and about to crush the case. Probably that 'crimp' feel you're getting.

Pressing more is just shoving the mouth up through the pilot holt/expander threads if it is for a shorter 30 cal case.

I think that's exactly what it's doing - I think the shoulder is cramming into the plug well before the case is fully sized. Like I'm trying to bump the shoulder back by a good 1/2" or something?

[hades]

Yep that's my guess. I don't have any shorter 30 cal dies except the big rushkie and the little rushkie.


I do have a new within the last year 30 06 rcbs die though.

With the decapping assembly removed the entire die is almost exactly 3 1/8 long. (I'm not sure how many die body sizes there are..)


Going from the top side down I've got about 5/8" of threads and including a small unthreading space before it gets to a 'step'

[hades]

Going the other way from the bottom of the die back up to the second angle where the neck and mouth meet is a hair under 2" best I can measure with a red spray straw. Hopefully this helps and you can determine if it's much off those numbers it's not the 30 06 die its supposed to be.

[huntinlever]

OK, thanks for the help. I think it must be a mis-stamped die. The case is way too long and the die hits the shoulder with this much sticking out.

311617

[Land Owner]

Sounds like it is time to contact RCBS at 800-533-5000 (last I checked) and ask for their assistance.

[243winxb]

Try RCBS 2 lube. Apply from a pad. The fl die does not need to be turned down the extra 1/8-1/4. It's to much.

A Rock Chucker press will turn a 30-06 case into a 243 win, with a Very long neck. Expander removed.

[huntinlever]

You nailed it! I can't believe it - I'd wondered if it was just friction binding and so slathered the case inside and out with Imperial wax - it's all I use - but when it made no difference I thought that confirmed it was the wrong size. Using the RCBS lube did it.

Boy do I feel like an idiot. Thank you!

ps: I'm picking up the Hornady OAL gauge today, along with comparator and insert, and modified 30-06 case. I'll set the shoulder back from one of his fired cases. Just wanted to run a couple at SAAMI reset.

[243winxb]

Glad you found the problem.

I like the RCBS 2 lube. Easily washed off sized brass with warm water & 2 drops of Dawn.

Also, Good lube when sizing cast bullets, using Lees push thru sizer. I size, wash off lube. Oven heat treat bullets. Relube* with 50/50.

[huntinlever]

Glad you found the problem.

I like the RCBS 2 lube. Easily washed off sized brass with warm water & 2 drops of Dawn.

Also, Good lube when sizing cast bullets, using Lees push thru sizer. I size, wash off lube. Oven heat treat bullets. Relive with 50/50.

It's funny as I used to use it, can't recall why I moved over to the wax, it's been so many years. Do you lube the inside of your bottleneck necks at all? I do use the RCBS lube for cast boolits, exactly as you say. I'll roll a ton at the same time, then run them through the push through sizer. Breeze.

[243winxb]

I use RCBS 2 on their brush to lube and clean the inside of the necks. Then wipe any excess out with a Qtip.

I need to change to a better inside DRY neck lube. But at 78, its getting to late to change.

[M-Tecs]

You nailed it! I can't believe it - I'd wondered if it was just friction binding and so slathered the case inside and out with Imperial wax - it's all I use - but when it made no difference I thought that confirmed it was the wrong size. Using the RCBS lube did it.

Boy do I feel like an idiot. Thank you!

ps: I'm picking up the Hornady OAL gauge today, along with comparator and insert, and modified 30-06 case. I'll set the shoulder back from one of his fired cases. Just wanted to run a couple at SAAMI reset.

Something is still amiss. Imperial wax is the go-to gold standard for hard sizing operations like reforming cases. I am not aware of any product that reduces friction more than Imperial sizing wax?

[243winxb]

Seems Imperial wax is not easily removed? https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/imperial-die-wax-removal.4089749/ :D

The lanolin & alcohol blends seem hard to remove also. Even more so if using the wrong homemade grade of lanolin.

I have seen the sizing problem online more then a few times. Mostly trying to size 5.56 or 308 "once fired" brass. 2 things fix it. Small base die and/or RCBS 2 lube.

Spray waxes seen to be the worst. Failure to let it dry, is mostly the problem. Or sticky wax build up.:D

RCBS has said they get a lot of fl bottle neck dies returned with stuck brass, where some kind of wax was used as lube.

I have always used RCBS Case lube. Never had a reason to change. .

The RCBS lube was a different blend when i started reloading around 1973. I like the current water soluble lube.

If it works, it works. No reason to change.

[huntinlever]

Good info guys. I've since tried both and both work perfectly fine. I have no idea what the problem was, especially since I'd previously deliberately lubed healthily after I couldn't get any resolution.

It occurred to me - is it possible the vent hole in the die was somehow blocked? I blew it out and cleaned the die with solvent and it was after that that things went to normal. I still can't believe the system is so airtight it would do this, or even if it was, that's enough air pressure to prevent the full sizing. I didn't change anything and it now works so my guess is simple friction, though I've never had anything seize like this.

[243winxb]

Is the wax a heavier viscosity? Does it dry out? Strange that it works now. Plugged went hole, maybe? But some dies may not have a vert? Strange.

[huntinlever]

Is the wax a heavier viscosity? Does it dry out? Strange that it works now. Plugged went hole, maybe? But some dies may not have a vert? Strange.

Yeah, the only thing I can figure out is the vent hole (this does have one). Just seems weird, can't imagine that would completely seize it up. Yep, really weird.

[M-Tecs]

Yeah, the only thing I can figure out is the vent hole (this does have one). Just seems weird, can't imagine that would completely seize it up. Yep, really weird.

Air is compressible. It's not a venting issue.

[huntinlever]

Air is compressible. It's not a venting issue.

Right. Duh, lol. I should know - scuba diver and blasted a hole in my leg when I was a kid from sandblasting, working for my dad's company. 50 years ago, scar looks like a lamprey latched on. :awesome:


311692

[jetinteriorguy]

In your picture it looks like it stopped right about where the depriming pin would be making contact. Perhaps the pin was skewed just enough and the flash hole was off centered just enough to jam everything up. Then the next time the case was turned enough for the pin to hit properly. I’d pull the depriming pin/expander out and roll it on a flat surface to see if the pin is slightly off centered.

[Rickf1985]

He had tried it without the ball and pin with the same results.

[jetinteriorguy]

He had tried it without the ball and pin with the same results.

Ah yes, silly me. I did read that but had forgotten it.

[omgb]

Remove the decapping assembly and try again. If it works, just adjust the decapper as required. BTW, to properly set the FL die, raise the ram and screw down the die until it makes contact. Lower the ram. Now screw in the die 1/8 of a turn. Raise the ram and check for slight, and I mean slight, cam over. You are good to go.

[hades]

Remove the decapping assembly and try again. If it works, just adjust the decapper as required. BTW, to properly set the FL die, raise the ram and screw down the die until it makes contact. Lower the ram. Now screw in the die 1/8 of a turn. Raise the ram and check for slight, and I mean slight, cam over. You are good to go.

Who's this comment to?


OP did exactly this....

[huntinlever]

Sorry for the late reply guys. I mentioned I got the RCBS to work, though don't ask me how, still a mystery. That said, I've since acquired the Hornady new dimension die and vastly prefer it - never much of a fan of the RCBS locking system (on either the body, or stem), much prefer the simple O-Ring of the Hornady. Also considering getting the Microjust seating stem. Now that I'm using the Hornady OAL gauge and comparator, I'm feeling a lot more confident in the seating and curious on whether the Microjust will make switching between bullets (here, Speer 200 Hot Cor, Hornady 225-250's Sp-RP, and Barnes 250 TSX) easier. Cheaper, too, if it means one die can handle the many bullets.

Thanks again.

[Willbird]

Sorry for the late reply guys. I mentioned I got the RCBS to work, though don't ask me how, still a mystery. That said, I've since acquired the Hornady new dimension die and vastly prefer it - never much of a fan of the RCBS locking system (on either the body, or stem), much prefer the simple O-Ring of the Hornady. Also considering getting the Microjust seating stem. Now that I'm using the Hornady OAL gauge and comparator, I'm feeling a lot more confident in the seating and curious on whether the Microjust will make switching between bullets (here, Speer 200 Hot Cor, Hornady 225-250's Sp-RP, and Barnes 250 TSX) easier. Cheaper, too, if it means one die can handle the many bullets.

Thanks again.

IMHO we will never know exactly what caused the issue. I still wonder if the die has an incorrect inner profile somehow. I always thought of imperial as a better lube than other stuff, it was often marketed for case forming and such things.

[nitro-express]

I have found on occasion that a new die needs to be seasoned. I'm guessing that the finish may have some micro surface issue and brass sticks to it. On one particularly bad one I even polished the interior of the die, but in the end I had to run the brass in until it went hard, removed it and cleaned and re-lubed it and repeat. Eventually the die worked like it should, no issues, normal effort.

I did a bit of experimenting with different lubes in the process of "seasoning" the die, and one lube towered above the rest. The LEE Resizing Lube was noticeably better than the rest. I found Imperial sizing wax to be noticeably inferior in just about every aspect. After "seasoning" I just use the old RCBS or Bonanza "syrup oil" on a pad, old school. The inside of the necks get a wipe with LEE.

The LEE is an industrial lube used on forming dies in factories, LEE just has it packaged for them. There is usually a tube or two within easy reach, it works. I think it liquifies under pressure and penetrates the metal, how it does that I've just chalked up to magic. Imperial sizing wax lacks the magic.

Nitro

[1hole]

I've been doing this reloading stuff for a really long time and find that any commercial case sizing lube works good IF it's applied and used correctly. I like Lee Lube, Hornady Unique and Imperial best because they are easy/fast to finger apply and they're clean to use.

What cases are really hard to size? I've happily reformed a lot of common surplus military .30-06 machine gun brass into premium .22-250 cases with Imperial. For most of us, sizing doesn't get any more demanding than that.