HR Handi R 45-70

[Dieselhorses]

So, I decided to sell my S&W 500, and in exchange for the ammo I supplied with it, I am now the owner of an HR 45-70 Gov. SB2 w/22" barrel. So, upon referencing some load data in Lyman 51st, I discovered 3 different sections. One for the Springfield 1873, one for the Winchester/Marlin and one for the Ruger no. 1 & 3. I was told by a friend who has reloaded for quite some time, to NOT use the Ruger loads because of the pressure only the Ruger can handle.

If you reload for 45-70 and own a handi-rifle, just point me in the right direction, pls & thx!

[725]

You'll get varied responses for this but even if the H&R doesn't disassemble with Ruger loads, you still won't want to hold on to it when it goes off. I've loaded to the H&R and, frankly, anything beyond trapdoor is unnecessary. Lots of good boolts and bullets shoot well in that gun. I am happy with between 300 & 400 grain bolts. So many of them do well. My favorite is from an old group buy (IIRC - 460-420 but I could be way off on that). Flat meplat, about 415 grains, big lube grooves. I've given it to several other in my area and they jokingly refer to it as the "matrix bullet", because it just turns the life force off on game. Accurate, too. The Gould bullet is good. Anything around 400 / 405 grains work well. Just find accuracy around the top end of trapdoor levels and you'll have all the fun you can stand. Good luck.

[pworley1]

The Handi rifle is a strong action but your shoulder will let you know what level of load you need. Load 10 450-500g of each level and by the time you get through them you will know.

[elmacgyver0]

Personally, I would not even shoot the hot loads in the Ruger.

[Midohhntr]

I've had a Handi-rifle in 45-70 since 2014 when Ohio first went to straight wall cartridges and used the Hornady lever revolution ammo.
Now I have learned to download a bit and use the Noe 315 RF loaded to 1300-1500 fps. Evan that is more than enough. The deer don't need water buffalo level loads.

[Head Shot]

Hello:
I can from experience tell you that the Handi Rifle can and does handle the ruger hi pressure loads just fine.
And i can also tell you that what others already stated that recoil can be right up there and beyond for some is true.
I personally am loading hot with a 250 gr hornady monoflex spire type red plastic tip slug not so much for punch but for flatter trajectory further out .
I load for accuracy at the higher velocities if i can get the groups so that i can for example sight in at a given yardage so that i can aim dead on from muzzle to the best trajectory that will still land in what i refer to as PBR (Point Blank Range)
Meaning say a 8 inch kill zone for example so ill set scope so its hits no higher than 4 inches but yet no lower than 4 inches and compute how far that may be per the loads specs etc.
So as an example the 45-70 hot load might say shoot to dead on center but still be plus or minus 4 inches of bullseye kill zone from muzzle to say 300 yards as an example but still stays within the 4 low to 4 high 8 inch kill zone out to say as just an example here 300 yards.
No hold over just aim straight dead on let the slug do its job by landing in the 8 inch kill zone.
I have a computer ballistics program that gives me the info after ive found the best accuracy at the fastest fps loading but yet within sami chamber pressures.
Head Shot

[lar45]

The SB2 was supposed to be rated for the higher pressure rounds like 30-06, the SB1 wasn't made of the same materials, or heat treated the same... Atleast that's what I remember from way back when they were still being made...
I corrected the above numbers.
Sorry for the misinformation :)

[Michael J. Spangler]

It depends on the frame. One is much stronger than the other but I don’t recall which. I’m sure a little googling will help.

I can say I’ve fired full snuff loads in a 500 S&W H&R Handi Rifle. So the right frame can take the pressure for sure.

That being said, as noted above, in that light rifle you’re going to give up before the gun does. Wether it’s the soft frame or the heat treated frame. ��

[Dieselhorses]

It depends on the frame. One is much stronger than the other but I don’t recall which. I’m sure a little googling will help.

I can say I’ve fired full snuff loads in a 500 S&W H&R Handi Rifle. So the right frame can take the pressure for sure.

That being said, as noted above, in that light rifle you’re going to give up before the gun does. Wether it’s the soft frame or the heat treated frame. ��

I did some research and was actually explained on CB’s.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?135930-H-amp-R-NEF-Handi-SB1-amp-SB2-Frames-There-is-a-Difference!


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[Jal5]

In mine I shoot trapdoor type loads. Recoil is about the same as a 20 ga. Slug. 350 gr lead or 405 gr both will kill deer to 100 yds if I do my part. Good fun!


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[Dieselhorses]

The SB1 was supposed to be rated for the higher pressure rounds like 30-06, the SB2 wasn't made of the same materials, or heat treated the same... Atleast that's what I remember from way back when they were still being made...

As per link I quoted further down and many other sources, SB1 is mainly for shotgun barrels, and .357 and .44 caliber. From what I’ve read the SB1 is cast and the SB2
is forged.


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[Dieselhorses]

Hello:
I can from experience tell you that the Handi Rifle can and does handle the ruger hi pressure loads just fine.
And i can also tell you that what others already stated that recoil can be right up there and beyond for some is true.
I personally am loading hot with a 250 gr hornady monoflex spire type red plastic tip slug not so much for punch but for flatter trajectory further out .
I load for accuracy at the higher velocities if i can get the groups so that i can for example sight in at a given yardage so that i can aim dead on from muzzle to the best trajectory that will still land in what i refer to as PBR (Point Blank Range)
Meaning say a 8 inch kill zone for example so ill set scope so its hits no higher than 4 inches but yet no lower than 4 inches and compute how far that may be per the loads specs etc.
So as an example the 45-70 hot load might say shoot to dead on center but still be plus or minus 4 inches of bullseye kill zone from muzzle to say 300 yards as an example but still stays within the 4 low to 4 high 8 inch kill zone out to say as just an example here 300 yards.
No hold over just aim straight dead on let the slug do its job by landing in the 8 inch kill zone.
I have a computer ballistics program that gives me the info after ive found the best accuracy at the fastest fps loading but yet within sami chamber pressures.
Head Shot

Just watched a YT video where a fellow was driving the Hornady Monoflex through almost the same hole!


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[Dieselhorses]

Thanks for everyones replies! Will get a box of factory to check scope and than start developing. But first have to put the icing on this rabbit hole and get dies, brass, mold etc. I successfully loaded for the 500, I can do it for this one.


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[Walks]

I've had and H&R SB-2 in .223Rem for almost 30yrs. Had a .45-70 and .30-30 bbl's added a few years later.
I was used to recoil from a Trapdoor Carbine, the H&R .45-70 was much heavier. I tried the M1886/M1895 loads. Nope not for me.
I stick to light loads, after 50yrs of Trap shooting, My old shoulder prefers it.

[murf205]

Don't worry, the Handi Rifle will tell you when to stop. When it detaches a retina and you have a really difficult time keeping the fore end in your hand, that's about it. My son is a big man and he is strong as dragon breath, but when he shot mine, he said "find someone you hate and GIVE it to them"! He has a 458 Win Ruger and I swear the HR 45/70 is more painful WITH full house loads. Trapdoor speeds will shoot through a buffalo anyway. Good luck

[Head Shot]

The SB1 was supposed to be rated for the higher pressure rounds like 30-06, the SB2 wasn't made of the same materials, or heat treated the same... Atleast that's what I remember from way back when they were still being made...

Hello:
CORECTION RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED
The SB1 is low pressure receiver for shotgun and yes even the 357 mag and 44 mag but thats the only exception im aware of.
The SB2 receiver is high pressure receiver for the 30-06 and 45-70 larger cal rifle cartridges.
Head Shot

[Dieselhorses]

I've had and H&R SB-2 in .223Rem for almost 30yrs. Had a .45-70 and .30-30 bbl's added a few years later.
I was used to recoil from a Trapdoor Carbine, the H&R .45-70 was much heavier. I tried the M1886/M1895 loads. Nope not for me.
I stick to light loads, after 50yrs of Trap shooting, My old shoulder prefers it.

Really nice having that option to add barrels/calibers! As far as 45-70, will stick to moderate loads which I'm sure will drop a deer at 100.

[Dieselhorses]

Hello:
CORECTION RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED
The SB1 is low pressure receiver for shotgun and yes even the 357 mag and 44 mag but thats the only exception im aware of.
The SB2 receiver is high pressure receiver for the 30-06 and 45-70 larger cal rifle cartridges.
Head Shot

What ballistics program do you use? Yes I'm glad I got the SB2. I wonder if they make a .50 barrel?

[Skipper]

Years ago I called NEF about handloading the 45-70. The nice lady on the phone said "we rate our rifles with the lever action data".

[wallacem]

First I need to know how you know yur frame is a SB2? Did you read it on the barrel? If so, that means nothing. You have to remove the stock to find out which frame you have. If the part of the frame that fits to the stock is hollow, it is a SB2. If it is solid it is a SB1. This is important. Wallace

[Dieselhorses]

First I need to know how you know yur frame is a SB2? Did you read it on the barrel? If so, that means nothing. You have to remove the stock to find out which frame you have. If the part of the frame that fits to the stock is hollow, it is a SB2. If it is solid it is a SB1. This is important. Wallace

Interesting. My SN starts with "HX" which indicates it should be a 2 but will remove stock and unveil tang/frame SN.

[Dieselhorses]

This is VERY interesting!

These are the second letter of the serial number. The first letter designates either a H&R (H) model or a NEF (N) model.

K=1996
L=1997
M=1998
N=1999
P=2000
R=2001
S=2002
T=2003
U=2004
V=2005
W=2006
X=2007
Y=2008
Z=2009

HARRINGTON & RICHARDSON SERIALIZATION 1940-1982
Year starting S.N. Prefix
1940 A
1941 B
1942 C
1943 D
1944 E
1945 F
1946 G
1947 H
1948 I
1949 J
1950 K
1951 L
1952 M
1953 N
1954 P
1955 R
1956 S
1957 T
1958 U
1958 V
1960 W
1961 X
1962 Y
1963 Z
1964 AA
1965 AB
1966 AC
1967 AD
1968 AE
1969 AF
1970 AG
1971 AH
1972 AJ
1973 AL
1974 AM
1975 AN
1976 AP
1977 AR
1978 AS
1979 AT
1980 AU
1981 AX
1982 AY

[JAMESGR]

It would be great if we could still buy an extra barrel or two from the factory.

[Dieselhorses]

It would be great if we could still buy an extra barrel or two from the factory.

Yes it would.


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[Dieselhorses]

First I need to know how you know yur frame is a SB2? Did you read it on the barrel? If so, that means nothing. You have to remove the stock to find out which frame you have. If the part of the frame that fits to the stock is hollow, it is a SB2. If it is solid it is a SB1. This is important. Wallace

I assume this is hollow?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230317/b57dd6bdb2b5675395150618e831c6e0.jpg


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[John Guedry]

I have about 40 or 50 pieces of 45/70 I'm going to take apart and load lighter. My shoulder has had about all the "fun " it can stand.

[Dieselhorses]

Still have questions. The action locks tight but if I hold a flashlight on opposite side of breach I can see a slither of light. Is this normal? Also, is this caliber supposed to throw spent cases or just extract manually?


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[sukivel]

My 45-70 is an extractor, but I am not sure which are which until you open them. Half of my Handi’s are extractors, and half eject. I prefer extractors, cause my 22 Hornet ejects that little dude behind me into the next county.


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[Dieselhorses]

My 45-70 is an extractor, but I am not sure which are which until you open them. Half of my Handi’s are extractors, and half eject. I prefer extractors, cause my 22 Hornet ejects that little dude behind me into the next county.


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I agree, as much as this brass costs, I don't wanna be plundering around in the grass trying to locate.

[JSnover]

Ya know...
I hate to urinate in the punch bowl but my HR hasn't been out of the safe in close to fifteen years. It's too light for anything more than target loads, for one thing. Fun to shoot, I guess but that's about it.
And I was Not impressed by the way the breech used to pop open when firing - even with light loads - unless I slammed it shut before pulling the trigger. I know, there's a simple fix but a Brand New rifle shouldn't behave that way, the owner shouldn't have to fix it, and The Manufacturer Should Never Let It Leave The Shop In That Condition.
If mine was unique I'd call it a fluke but mine was one of many with that same problem. I'll never own another.
Sorry. Rant Off.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Ya know...
I hate to urinate in the punch bowl but my HR hasn't been out of the safe in close to fifteen years. It's too light for anything more than target loads, for one thing. Fun to shoot, I guess but that's about it.
And I was Not impressed by the way the breech used to pop open when firing - even with light loads - unless I slammed it shut before pulling the trigger. I know, there's a simple fix but a Brand New rifle shouldn't behave that way, the owner shouldn't have to fix it, and The Manufacturer Should Never Let It Leave The Shop In That Condition.
If mine was unique I'd call it a fluke but mine was one of many with that same problem. I'll never own another.
Sorry. Rant Off.


So what you’re saying is you wanna sell it?

[JoseBob]

Guess I'll jump in here with my experience. I have a 45-70 H&R and my load consists of 38 gr of IMR 4198. This is with a 405 cast boolit. There is one problem I have discovered. The Bore on this rifle is bigger than .457 or 458. It is .460 and as such needs a boolit that is about .462 or a smidge bigger. I started out wrapping the boolit with plumbers teflon tape. 3 wraps bumped it up to where it would shoot. I then figured out powder coating. One coat was not enough. 2 coats was much better and 3 coats put the boolit at about .463 and shot very well. Just takes time to shake and bake em. With the 38 gr. of IMR 4198 I am in the 1550 FPS ballpark. It is above trapdoor level, but nowhere near Ruger territory. This load works in my gun, YMMV. Please use this information at your own risk.

[Dieselhorses]

Guess I'll jump in here with my experience. I have a 45-70 H&R and my load consists of 38 gr of IMR 4198. This is with a 405 cast boolit. There is one problem I have discovered. The Bore on this rifle is bigger than .457 or 458. It is .460 and as such needs a boolit that is about .462 or a smidge bigger. I started out wrapping the boolit with plumbers teflon tape. 3 wraps bumped it up to where it would shoot. I then figured out powder coating. One coat was not enough. 2 coats was much better and 3 coats put the boolit at about .463 and shot very well. Just takes time to shake and bake em. With the 38 gr. of IMR 4198 I am in the 1550 FPS ballpark. It is above trapdoor level, but nowhere near Ruger territory. This load works in my gun, YMMV. Please use this information at your own risk.

Good work. So, if you can when you get time, see if you can see any light coming through between barrel and breech. Also let me know if you ever had problems with rifle unlocking after a shot? Thx

[farmerjim]

I have shot my 45-70 Handi with a 500 grain rnfp bore rider heavy load.
I will not do it a second time.

[Dieselhorses]

I have shot my 45-70 Handi with a 500 grain rnfp bore rider heavy load.
I will not do it a second time.

As I've mentioned, I got this rifle in return for some ammo that went with the S&W 500 I sold. I've shot the 500 beast for years with no pain, even with handloads of 40 gn of H110. I guess the wrist can take more than the shoulder? I will look into a "Limb saver" nonetheless!

Gee, just noticed you in St. Francisville! Used to work on ferry for DOTD until they shut it down! (2011)

[JSnover]

So what you’re saying is you wanna sell it?
It had other issues; Like shooting 24" to the right at 50 yards, with the rear sight drifted all the way left. Drifted the front sight over to the right and got it back on paper. The barrel does not appear to be bent and the crown looks great; square and concentric.
If I did sell it, it would be at a bargain price, as-is, No Returns.

[farmerjim]

As I've mentioned, I got this rifle in return for some ammo that went with the S&W 500 I sold. I've shot the 500 beast for years with no pain, even with handloads of 40 gn of H110. I guess the wrist can take more than the shoulder? I will look into a "Limb saver" nonetheless!

Gee, just noticed you in St. Francisville! Used to work on ferry for DOTD until they shut it down! (2011)

One of the retired ferry captains lives across the street from me.

[Gtek]

I have a few of these and several in the 45-70, a couple BC's and this little monster. When first received in its nice little black plastic stocked weighs nothing self I put one of the Marlin rounds in it. A nice little stack up of 52 gr of 3031 behind a FPHP, one shot and that round was delegated back to the lever world. Then I found a laminate set with Monte Carlo and that changed the world, it calmed the recoil dramatically either by fit, weight or both but was much more enjoyable to shoot. It has been a while but when staying in the 300-400 zone in the 1800 range it is very manageable. In regard to "light" between barrel and receiver, close weapon and feeler gauge the gap, place a round in chamber and feeler that between base and receiver. That is the headspace.

[Michael J. Spangler]

It had other issues; Like shooting 24" to the right at 50 yards, with the rear sight drifted all the way left. Drifted the front sight over to the right and got it back on paper. The barrel does not appear to be bent and the crown looks great; square and concentric.
If I did sell it, it would be at a bargain price, as-is, No Returns.

Offer it up on S&S
There are some handy guys around here that would either get it running or use it as a donor for some new project

[JSnover]

Offer it up on S&S
There are some handy guys around here that would either get it running or use it as a donor for some new project

That's probably the best idea at this point.
** Note to Mods; this has NOT been a WTS fishing expedition.
To the OP, I do hope you have good luck with your rifle, just had to get a thing or two off my chest.

[Grayone]

I assume this is hollow?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230317/b57dd6bdb2b5675395150618e831c6e0.jpg


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That is an SB-2.

[Dieselhorses]

That is an SB-2.

Thanks. Have located various barrels on Fleebay. Seems the barrels cost more than what I paid for the whole gun lol.

[JoseBob]

Good work. So, if you can when you get time, see if you can see any light coming through between barrel and breech. Also let me know if you ever had problems with rifle unlocking after a shot? Thx

No light between the barrel and the breech in the 45/70. I do have a .44 mag Handi Rifle and it unlocks about 75% of the time. Very disconcerting to say the least. There may be a fractional amount of light between the barrel and breech on it. I don't use the .44 very much. It is just in the safe. The 45/70 is the go to rifle for close in brush hunting. It has never unlocked on me. I have a other rifles for more open hunts.

[Gtek]

Too much lubrication on breech locking area (ramp lower barrel) can cause unlocking which usually indicates it is right on ragged edge of proper fitting. I had one that did this occasionally, a little fine compound on shelf and worked a couple times then torn down and cleaned all really well and fixed. I believe a search over on Greybeards there are several discussions on this topic/process. It is a low and slow attempt, file or grind too difficult to control quality of fit, compound perfectly mates the two but too much bad, so sad!

[Dieselhorses]

Too much lubrication on breech locking area (ramp lower barrel) can cause unlocking which usually indicates it is right on ragged edge of proper fitting. I had one that did this occasionally, a little fine compound on shelf and worked a couple times then torn down and cleaned all really well and fixed. I believe a search over on Greybeards there are several discussions on this topic/process. It is a low and slow attempt, file or grind too difficult to control quality of fit, compound perfectly mates the two but too much bad, so sad!

Makes sense. I am leaning towards this rifle not being shot a whole and needs some breaking in. If I slam it shut firmly, I don't get any "light" creeping through! Will clean thoroughly and check out Greybeards. I used to have an old Topper model .410 that upon closing the action I would hear a distinct "click".

[Jal5]

Graybeards forum has all the info, tips etc. you could ever need on these rifles. The fit of barrel to receiver is the key to fixing the opening after firing problem.
Joe


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[Dieselhorses]

Deleted

[olafhardt]

The Handi was sold in 500 S&W. I have one I bought brand new years ago. The 500 has a larger base area and was designed with a 65000 operating pressure. Loading to Ruger pressure is acceptable. I know guys who love recoil . You can get it with a Handi.

[Skipper]

Ya know...
I hate to urinate in the punch bowl but my HR hasn't been out of the safe in close to fifteen years. It's too light for anything more than target loads, for one thing. Fun to shoot, I guess but that's about it.
And I was Not impressed by the way the breech used to pop open when firing - even with light loads - unless I slammed it shut before pulling the trigger. I know, there's a simple fix but a Brand New rifle shouldn't behave that way, the owner shouldn't have to fix it, and The Manufacturer Should Never Let It Leave The Shop In That Condition.
If mine was unique I'd call it a fluke but mine was one of many with that same problem. I'll never own another.
Sorry. Rant Off.
Removing all oil from the locking surfaces will usually fix this. It's a common problem.

[Dieselhorses]

The Handi was sold in 500 S&W. I have one I bought brand new years ago. The 500 has a larger base area and was designed with a 65000 operating pressure. Loading to Ruger pressure is acceptable. I know guys who love recoil . You can get it with a Handi.

I just scanned over the .500's pressures in the Lyman 4th and didn't see anything over 44000. I wonder (with some fitting) will a .500 barrel mate up to my frame? There are quite a few barrels for the H&R on eBay.

[Dieselhorses]

Removing all oil from the locking surfaces will usually fix this. It's a common problem.

It sure did! Locks up snug as a bug now.