Boolit fit after Firing

[racepres]

Odd occurrence for me.. Happens to be my 7TCU Contender, but will check other calibers Now..
I am accustomed to sticking a Boolit into the neck of Fired Cases...just to "see", and having a few real wildcats .. I thought I was ensuring the necks were proportioned correctly, (not too tight).
Welp..new one on me.. I was testing the Lee 130 RN GC .284 (Mine are .285) using 7.6 gr of Unique with Rem 6-1/2 primers, and 15.5 gr H110 with WSR primers.. Unique load at the bench seem exceedingly mild.. upon inserting boolit into fired neck...The ctgs that had the Unique loading slide in like I am accustomed to..
The hotter sensation, (yes I need to chrono next), H110 loading, will Not accept a Boolit into the neck!!!
I am now officially confused.. seems to me a Noticably hotter loading should have left the neck at least as large.. Same Lot, and Number of firings previous.. But...I have Not recorded all of the firings, as Now these are relegated to "experimental", so more than a few!
Yup...Still Learning...
What Thinks We????

[Winger Ed.]

Interesting.
I'd measure the IDs of the cases, and the OD of the boolits to see how they jive up.

[dtknowles]

Same lot of brass?

[243winxb]

Starting loads of 4350 in a 243 win will not expand necks enough to allow a bullet to enter the neck of fired brass. As pressures go up, then it may, nearing maximum pressures.

Annealing of brass may change this, as brass is softer.

Not a useful test to find chamber neck diameters.

Check for donuts.

[racepres]

Thanks for taking the time..
I don't believe measuring will show anything different..Same Lot of brass ..all been together from beginning...until now. Boolit either goes in or it Don't.. all Unique cases, the boolits enter easily...all H110 loaded, No Go.. I am having a Hard time believing the Unique load makes more pressure... but.. I think I will load the H110 loading in the brass that had Unique, and the ones that had Unique will get an H110 load...check that result.. Why Not? May prove interesting! Prolly Chrono this next outing...PITA tho...as I was originally only interested in group size!!!!
Checking neck fit has Never before lied to me... and this is Not the first time I have used this method.. But, always before, been close to Maximum loadings... never softer "target" loadings..

[Winger Ed.]

Softer loads may not blow out the case to the size of the chamber.
Sort of like trying to fire form brass without enough pressure to fully do it.

[45_Colt]

The Unique load may have had a higher peak pressure, as it is a faster burning powder then the H110.

45_Colt

[pworley1]

The Unique load may have had a higher peak pressure, as it is a faster burning powder then the H110.

45_Colt

I think 45_Colt has it.

[high standard 40]

I think 45_Colt has it.

This, and the peak pressure happens sooner, before the bullet has moved as far down the barrel

[racepres]

Winger Ed and 45Colt have probably cleared this Up... And... HS 40 is putting an exclaimation point of what should have been one of my Considerations... Still gonna do a tiny bit more Experimentation...Just because I need "Closure"... While Not ADD, I do Respect Details...
Sure appreciate All of the Input.. I consider All advice/observation... even If I seem to Blow it Off...I do Not...
Like

Starting loads of 4350 in a 243 win will not expand necks enough to allow a bullet to enter the neck of fired brass. As pressures go up, then it may, nearing maximum pressures.

Annealing of brass may change this, as brass is softer.

Not a useful test to find chamber neck diameters.

Check for donuts.

IDK what "donuts" really Means... I do Know what Not enough Pressure means....

Thanks Again

[243winxb]

Google- Donut, there will be a million posts on the subject. Basic- neck thickness @ neck shoulder junction. The 223/5.56 is the worse offender in factory brass i have come across.

Using standard factory fl dies may make it almost impossible to pull the expander out of the lubed case neck.

The fix, bushing die or neck turning. The Lee collet neck die is my last choice. Sorry Lee lovers. :D

[M-Tecs]

Winger Ed and 45Colt have probably cleared this Up... And... HS 40 is putting an exclaimation point of what should have been one of my Considerations... Still gonna do a tiny bit more Experimentation...Just because I need "Closure"... While Not ADD, I do Respect Details...
Sure appreciate All of the Input.. I consider All advice/observation... even If I seem to Blow it Off...I do Not...
Like


IDK what "donuts" really Means... I do Know what Not enough Pressure means....

Thanks Again

https://mssblog.com/tag/case-neck-donuts/

Donuts happen for several reason from firing. Oversizing brass seems to be a leading cause of donuts forming. I have 20 plus firings on some of my .223/5.56 brass with zero donut issues. I hold .001' to 002" shoulder bump.

When forming brass from longer case it becomes a major issue.

https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/147-advanced-case-forming-operations-#:~:text=This%20is%20a%20ring%20of%20thicker%20bra ss%20inside,for%20the%20case%20neck%20to%20release %20the%20bullet.

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/rifle-case-necks

Donuts also commonly appear after necking cases up from a smaller caliber, transforming the upper part of the shoulder into the base of the neck. I ran into this in 2008 when handloading for a Shaw Mark VII custom rifle in 6.5-06. Most handloaders make 6.5-06 cases by necking up .25-06 brass, so after carefully sorting Remington .25-06 cases for consistent neck thickness, I necked them up and started handloading and shooting. Unfortunately, accuracy turned out to be erratic, and my other Shaw-barreled rifles had shot very well. The problem was eventually traced to the dreaded donut, by using the same bullet test.
I also had an abundant supply of new .270 Winchester cases, so I necked some down. This required trimming the longer necks, but accuracy immediately improved. Eventually, I decided that if I ever built another 6.5-06, it would actually be a 6.5-.270, not just to save trimming time, but to lengthen bore life. Most bore erosion occurs right in front of the case mouth, where powder gas is hottest, and longer necks protect more of this area.

After running into the “firing donut” a few more times I decided to try an alternative cure, described in a short essay appropriately titled The Dreaded Donut, from another book collection of accuracy tips by various people, The Benchrest Shooting Primer. The author was Fred Sinclair, the well-known bench shooter and loading-tool maker, who discussed two methods for dealing with donuts, reaming and outside-turning the shoulder/neck junction on cases resized in a typical expander ball die. The expander ball presses the thicker donut-brass outward, where it can be lathed off.

Sinclair claimed outside turning didn’t work as well, because the donut tended to spring back some after the passage of the expander ball. However, I was wrestling with a few donuts in a new 6.5 PRC built on a Remington 700 action with a Lilja 1:8 barrel by Kentucky Gunsmith Charlie Sisk. I expected it to shoot well, but after a few firings of the excellent Hornady brass (which has such an even neck thickness, it didn’t need to be turned) the same symptoms showed up in my .243 and were confirmed by another bullet test.

I didn’t feel like ordering a reamer, so I tried the resizing/lathe method – but first I annealed the necks, resulting in less spring back after resizing, and it worked very well. The rifle started grouping five shots (not just three) in less than half an inch. This won’t win benchrest matches, but is more than good enough for a hunting rifle weighing under 8 pounds scoped.


When Roy Weatherby introduced his “venturi-shoulder” belted magnums, he claimed they resulted in lower pressures and higher velocities. This was not true – but the curved shoulders seem to be immune to the dreaded “donut.”

One thing I have noticed during the quarter century since purchasing my first .300 Weatherby Magnum round is that none of my rifles chambered in the curve-shouldered Weatherby magnums have developed the dreaded donut, probably due to lacking a sharp shoulder/neck junction. If anybody has encountered donuts in those Weatherby rounds, I would appreciate hearing about it.

[jsizemore]

In the good old days when I still did the silhouette thing, most guys used Unique to blow cases out to final shape. Did a better job than Bullseye. My old 4th edition "The complete reloading manual for the T/C Contender" shows a starting load of H-110 behind a Lyman 135gr gas checked #2 alloy of 14.4gr. Max load is 18gr.The Lyman bullet mold is #287346. Could be you need a little more gas.

[Winger Ed.]

If your fired cases just drop into the cylinder instead of having that firm fit like normal
where ya have to give the extractor a little push, that'll tell ya for sure it's real low pressure.
I've seen large smudges at the mouth too from some gases blowing back since it didn't expand and seal.

[racepres]

In the good old days when I still did the silhouette thing, most guys used Unique to blow cases out to final shape. Did a better job than Bullseye. My old 4th edition "The complete reloading manual for the T/C Contender" shows a starting load of H-110 behind a Lyman 135gr gas checked #2 alloy of 14.4gr. Max load is 18gr.The Lyman bullet mold is #287346. Could be you need a little more gas.
LOl... Prolly... I had stuff to do today ...but, took ambit to do some further testing..
First loaded 5 ea of the same load...but used the cases that had previously held H110 for Unique loads...and the Unique load went into the cases that had previously held H110 loadings...
Same scenario.. cases loaded with Unique necks will accept boolit after firing...cases loaded with the H110 load will not, allow a boolit to enter neck... No Donuts...talking front of Neck.. besides switching load to opposite case!!!
Decided..."Need more Gas"... IDC what the book calls for ...I an't going over 16.0 gr of H110 with the Speer 130 RNGC... too damn Hot for me!! Yea folks that have read my posts in the past Know I do Not like Recoil!!! but...at 16.0 gr H110...still No Boolit can go in the neck of the fired ctg.. Odd to me that the Unique loading Always allows boolit to fully enter the neck of spent ctg!!!! Good reason to use Unique for Fireforming certainly..
Now... the entire reason for the original exercise!!!! The 15 gr of H110, under the Lee 130 rngc boolit is more accurate than Hotter loading of H110, and a bit more accurate than the Unique load!! Mission accomplished... with a Catch for my senses!!!

[Winger Ed.]

and a bit more accurate than the Unique load!!

That's the one I'd use.

Shot placement is everything, especially on those little black dots.
If you don't make a quick, clean kill--- the Target Kong have been rumored to drag off their wounded.

[racepres]

That's the one I'd use.

Shot placement is everything, especially on those little black dots.
If you don't make a quick, clean kill--- the Target Kong have been rumored to drag off their wounded.
LOL...Yes a Dire situation... I will take your advice..Maybe even tweak that H-110 load a tenth or two either way... But... aint gonna be 16 even if the book says 18 is probably OK... I cannot handle it!!!!! Wuss


Update; On a whim I went ahead and ran a fired case into the M die..only the very end of the neck was touched...and now the Boolit passes into the neck of the fired cases all the same!! Odd, as that should (to Me) indicate a need to trim... but, that is Not the case...Too much crimp??? No as there is Zero Crimp, even after Mdie then seating the Case chambers properly. Something going on here... But...Not enough to loose any sleep over, me thinks!!!