Rebound hammer fix on Winchester/Miroku - again

[Rowerower]

Hi, folks!

My first post here.

I recently bought a Winchester/Miroku 1892 Carbine in .357 Magnum. It's a sweet rifle with a smooth action, but like so many others, I'm not very pleased with the rebound hammer. I'm considering doing the rebound hammer fix (cut off part of the lower leg of the hammer strut so it doesn’t touch the hammer when the hammer is all the way down).

I've read what I could find on various sites concerning this fix. I have a few questions that I hope you well informed people can answer:

1.After the fix, is there a greater risk of the firing pin to break during shooting?
2. Is it correct that the tang safety will still work when the hammer is in the full cock position (the hammer will not hit the firing pin when pulling the trigger)?
3. Will the tang safety NOT work from the half cock position if you pull the trigger hard? Is there a fix for this?
4. If, after the fix, the hammer is in the forward position and there is a round in the chamber, will a hard smack on the hammer ignite the round even if the tang safety is on?

I hope somebody can enlighten me on these questions! Take care!

Rower

[indian joe]

Hi, folks!

My first post here.

I recently bought a Winchester/Miroku 1892 Carbine in .357 Magnum. It's a sweet rifle with a smooth action, but like so many others, I'm not very pleased with the rebound hammer. I'm considering doing the rebound hammer fix (cut off part of the lower leg of the hammer strut so it doesn’t touch the hammer when the hammer is all the way down).

I've read what I could find on various sites concerning this fix. I have a few questions that I hope you well informed people can answer:

1.After the fix, is there a greater risk of the firing pin to break during shooting?
2. Is it correct that the tang safety will still work when the hammer is in the full cock position (the hammer will not hit the firing pin when pulling the trigger)?
3. Will the tang safety NOT work from the half cock position if you pull the trigger hard? Is there a fix for this?

I hope somebody can enlighten me on these questions! Take care!

Rower

not the issue you are talking about but a curious mind wants to know
with the rifle cocked and lever closed - push the firing pin forward into the bolt - does it move forward ? (should/might be a rebound spring at the front end of the firing pin?) yes / no?
if yes - hold it forward and slowly start to open (cycle) the lever - if they honoured J M Browning's original design the first little bit of lever stroke should retract the firing pin back mechanically (it dont need the rebound spring that the lawyers added in Japan!) - this means its impossible to create an out of battery discharge (gun wont fire unless lever is full and properly closed)
I have one japchester (a 1990's vintage model 71) less than impressed with the lawyer inspired features on it and from descriptions hereabouts - later guns suffered more baloney than mine.

[Rowerower]

I will check when home from work, Indian Joe.

[FergusonTO35]

Here's my experience on a 1985 94, don't know how much in common it has with the 92. It doesn't take much trimming at all to nullify the rebounding hammer, I want to say mine only took 1/8" or so. The only thing I don't like about this modification is that the only thing holding the hammer back in the at rest position is a little hammer block lever that is lowered when the trigger is pulled. On mine at least, this will happen if you pull the trigger while the hammer is at rest and the hammer will move forward a little bit. Now, a firm blow to the hammer could conceivably set it off. With the rebound feature intact, the rebound leg holds the hammer away from the firing pin when it is at rest and even if you pull the trigger and press it forward the hammer moves back into the at rest position.

I'm thinking about creating a half cock notch in the hammer so the sear will engage while the hammer is at rest, in order to add another means to hold the hammer back.

[Bazoo]

Turnbull Manufacturing converts the rebounding hammer to a traditional half cock hammer when they take the Miroku 1892 and refinish it. You might call or email them and get some idea of the process. I don't know what they charge for the half cock conversion and refinish your receiver after plugging the hole, but it might be worth asking. If it was only a couple hundred bucks, I imagine it'd be money well spent.

The Miroku Browning 1892 didn't have the tang safety. I'm not sure about the changes that model has though. But you might be able to find replacement parts by looking there.

[FergusonTO35]

As I understand it, the B92's had the best of both worlds: JMB's original design rendered in modern Japanese steel and typical precision. And that's why they sell for a premium. Even just the original Browning 92 parts to convert a recent 92 back to half cock hammer will set you back a few c-notes if you can even find them. The tang safety doesn't bother me so I would just leave it as is. An old issue of Rifle magazine discussed a way to modify it to where the safety could not be engaged without first pulling the hammer back slightly, to obviate the problem of accidentally putting it on safe.

[Rowerower]

Hi, Indian Joe. When I push the firing pin forward when the rifle is coked and the lever closed, the firing pin moves forward. It doesn't move when I slowly open the lever.

[Rowerower]

Thanks for all your replies, Gentlemen. I think I will leave the rifle as is for now. Wouldn't want to have a rifle with a safety that I couldn't trust 100%.

[NSB]

It’s not a “fix” until it’s broke. Old saying, “don’t fix it if it ain’t broke”.

[FergusonTO35]

Is the 92 in question currently having light strikes or other problems? Some of them actually do work properly!

[Thundermaker]

My new production 92 has an inertial firing pin. The pin doesn't make contact with the primer with the hammer pushed all the way forward.

I've considered doing the mod on mine, since the rifle just doesn't look quite right with the hammer laid back like that, but I haven't had any problems with the rifle firing.

[jstanfield103]

I have two new 92's and have done the rebounding hammer on both. Here is what I found out, note that I never had a problem with the rebounding hammer on one. I did mine anyway and happy with it.

After doing the fix if I left the hammer all the way down against the firing pin and put the safety in the safe position you could not pull the hammer back it was locked against the firing pin, which also means that you can not lever the action. If you put the hammer in half cock and or full cock and put the safety on it would let you pull the trigger but the hammer could not hit the firing pin. Worked great. If you put the hammer in half cock position with safety off and pulled the trigger the hammer will fall and hit the firing pin, but takes a little effort. Just want you to be aware of how the safety would work with the Rebound hammer fix done.

[FergusonTO35]

On my 94 AE, if you put the rifle in half cock and pull the trigger, the hammer will move forward but not with enough speed to fire. As I remember, the rebound strut is what keeps the hammer on half cock on this design rather than a sear.

[Tazman1602]

Turnbull Manufacturing converts the rebounding hammer to a traditional half cock hammer when they take the Miroku 1892 and refinish it. You might call or email them and get some idea of the process. I don't know what they charge for the half cock conversion and refinish your receiver after plugging the hole, but it might be worth asking. If it was only a couple hundred bucks, I imagine it'd be money well spent.

The Miroku Browning 1892 didn't have the tang safety. I'm not sure about the changes that model has though. But you might be able to find replacement parts by looking there.


I recently wrote them (Turnbull) for my 1886’s…….$1300 for the tang safety/half notch hammer conversion.

Art

[indian joe]

I recently wrote them (Turnbull) for my 1886’s…….$1300 for the tang safety/half notch hammer conversion.

Art

Sell the Browning and buy a Chiappa ----proly get two for the price of Turnbull conversion + original Browning purchase
yeah the steel is soft ! ... so ? ....so were the original Winchesters .....how many of those do we see that are actually wore out, not death by neglect ??\

I have had one wore out one out of about 20 and the barrel was still good in it - all it woulda took to fix was set the barrel back two threads and rechamber --sold it to a collector for what I thought was a stupid price - it had a little wasp stamped in the barrel and "The Stinger" - the mark of a Brisbane gunsmith / importer I was told

[FergusonTO35]

I recently wrote them (Turnbull) for my 1886’s…….$1300 for the tang safety/half notch hammer conversion.

Art

Considering the effort that Turnbull goes through, that is probably a reasonable price.

[indian joe]

Considering the effort that Turnbull goes through, that is probably a reasonable price.

mebbe so - and if you have it to spare (I dont) ----feel free to throw it anywhere you like.

I bought a Chiappa 86 recently, it came with good quality wood, nice case harden action finish, and is a proper copy of the original = no lawyer inspired BS.

its an other option

[cbennett]

Men, my Miroku 92 in 32-20 was just returned to me from Turnbull. This gun was the Deluxe Octagon Takedown.
Turnbull removed the rebound hammer, cut a half cock notch. original style (1) piece firing pin and color case hardened the receiver, Butt plate and magazine cap. They cost was exactly what was quoted as was the turnaround. I am highly pleased, the gun turns heads and has a lot better feel to the action.

[square butte]

Men, my Miroku 92 in 32-20 was just returned to me from Turnbull. This gun was the Deluxe Octagon Takedown.
Turnbull removed the rebound hammer, cut a half cock notch. original style (1) piece firing pin and color case hardened the receiver, Butt plate and magazine cap. They cost was exactly what was quoted as was the turnaround. I am highly pleased, the gun turns heads and has a lot better feel to the action.

What was the turn around time with Turnbull ? I could not find it in the above post

[indian joe]

Men, my Miroku 92 in 32-20 was just returned to me from Turnbull. This gun was the Deluxe Octagon Takedown.
Turnbull removed the rebound hammer, cut a half cock notch. original style (1) piece firing pin and color case hardened the receiver, Butt plate and magazine cap. They cost was exactly what was quoted as was the turnaround. I am highly pleased, the gun turns heads and has a lot better feel to the action.

The quality of Turnbulls work is obvious - just as obvious is that quality of work does not come cheap .

Its just a durn shame that the people running the japchester factory persist with these foolish changes to what was a very effective original design. The changes are detrimental to functionality and add nothing to overall safety.

I own a Browning Miruko model 71 - thankfully made early enough it missed out on the tang safety and does have the half cock notch - the rebounding multi part firing pin has failed and been fixed - a serious machining error on the underside of the bolt has been fixed - its a good gun (now)

[Kai]

It seems the goal is to get the gun closer to an original. With that being said why not simply sell your gun and buy an original 1892? Especially if you were to consider spending a bunch to have the gun converted. Sure you would have to choose a different cartridge besides the .357 but then again, if closer to original is what you are after, then why not go with an original cartridge as well.

[FergusonTO35]

If Turnbull offered just the service of modifying Winchesters to the original firing system without cosmetic work they would be instantly flooded with orders.

[Kai]

If Turnbull offered just the service of modifying Winchesters to the original firing system without cosmetic work they would be instantly flooded with orders.

It is probly not worth their time.

[doccash]

I have no problem with the new hammer system. In fact, I requested that it be used in my 50-110 from Turnbull. I have had a stroke and my rifle handling skills have been compromised and I'm more comfortable releasing the cocked hammer on a loaded rifle. With the other new rifles from Miroku,and there are quite a few, I have never had a single problem with mis-fires. Dr.C

[Bazoo]

Men, my Miroku 92 in 32-20 was just returned to me from Turnbull. This gun was the Deluxe Octagon Takedown.
Turnbull removed the rebound hammer, cut a half cock notch. original style (1) piece firing pin and color case hardened the receiver, Butt plate and magazine cap. They cost was exactly what was quoted as was the turnaround. I am highly pleased, the gun turns heads and has a lot better feel to the action.

I think I speak for everyone when I say, I'd like to see pictures!

[Bazoo]

I have no problem with the new hammer system. In fact, I requested that it be used in my 50-110 from Turnbull. I have had a stroke and my rifle handling skills have been compromised and I'm more comfortable releasing the cocked hammer on a loaded rifle. With the other new rifles from Miroku,and there are quite a few, I have never had a single problem with mis-fires. Dr.C

That is a very valid point and I appreciate you sharing that with us. I prefer the non safety model NOW, but maybe in 30 years I'll like the extra safety offered by a model with a separate safety.

[Bazoo]

If Turnbull offered just the service of modifying Winchesters to the original firing system without cosmetic work they would be instantly flooded with orders.

Well, I imagine that what you describe would be a service that wouldn't be too difficult from any decent gunsmith.

[missionary5155]

When we bought our first 86 jap-chester about 12 years back, within 50 rounds it was giving us light strikes.
Maybe the 92's are less prone but I will not stake my future on it.

[FergusonTO35]

I have no problem with the new hammer system. In fact, I requested that it be used in my 50-110 from Turnbull. I have had a stroke and my rifle handling skills have been compromised and I'm more comfortable releasing the cocked hammer on a loaded rifle. With the other new rifles from Miroku,and there are quite a few, I have never had a single problem with mis-fires. Dr.C

My only concern is light strikes, which my 1985 94 certainly had in stock form. If the gun goes bang every time I'm not going to lose sleep over it. The 2002 model I had (and sold like a big dummy) always smacked 'em with authority and was a good shooter. Ugh, why did I sell such a depenadable rifle? I need to contact the buyer and offer to double his money!

[FergusonTO35]

Well, I imagine that what you describe would be a service that wouldn't be too difficult from any decent gunsmith.

As I understand it, doing this the right way requires fabricating new parts. The only gunsmith I ever dealt with who did this kind of work is now pushing up daisies. All the others I know of don't do anything more drastic than finish chambering, and I doubt they would want the perceived liability of deleting "safety" features and creating a new fire control system. It might actually be more cost effective to buy and sell rifles until you find one that makes you happy without modifications.

[cbennett]

Men, Mine looks identical to the Color Case takedown 189 shown on Turnbull's website.