Hollow point struggles

[Barry54]

Hollow point questions

So I finally tried out my NOE 232 grain brass four cavity mold. It looks much nicer than it works for me. I had one cavity that constantly stuck. Smoke from a bic lighter only helped for one or two pours. I even tried rubbing in some powdered graphite with a q-tip and that didn’t do anything either. Moving forward I intend to put a flat point pin in that cavity to see if it helps. But I don’t want to use up tin-rich alloy casting flat points (or cup points).

So I got a quick coat of LLA on the survivors of the first casting session and ran 20 through the new .451” Lee sizer. Success! No more hard chambering and hitting the back of the slide to go into battery!!

So now the next disappointment is I didn’t recover any in my water jugs. I set up a DEF container behind a washer fluid jug and they blew right out the back from my 4” barrel. So I tried the 5” barrel and it blew on through as well. I was at starting load levels of N310 powder. 3.7 grains to be exact. Guessing low to mid 700s for velocity. Why cast troublesome HPs if they don’t expand? Moving forward I intend to try 3N38 powder with a near maximum charge on my next water vessels. Book velocity for max is 997 FPS and over 500 foot pounds of energy!

Now for what was in the pot. It was probably 1/2 full of whatever was casting well last time. Some unknown blend of wheelweights and my other purchased ingots. I was told that they were bullet cores from a military range. I filled up the 20 pound furnace with the backstop ingots and added probably 1/4 roll of solder for tin.

I’ve always dropped my cast boolets in a 5 gallon bucket of water because it was the easiest way to land them without damage. Never tried any other method.

I’ve paid retail price for two 5 lb ingots of pure lead and have most of a bar of pure tin. I was thinking I might need to attempt a 40:1 or 30:1 alloy to get expansion. Not sure how rich it needs to go with tin for good fill-out.

I was hoping the backstop blend would have shown expansion because I have a ton of it. I smashed some of the rejects with my pocket pliers and they weren’t brittle but harder than I had hoped for.

I ended up the day casting with two other new molds. I got about forty five 7/8 ounce slugs before the screw came out of the core pin. It may be stripped. Haven’t looked at it very close. Stuck it and the attached slug in the freezer.

The real joy of the day turned out to be the Lee 500 grain two cavity .458” mold! They fell out when I opened the mold and I finished the pot with it, and called it quits.

[Land Owner]

1.) IDK how to advise you on mold release. In the short term, you can avoid the cavity that sticks. Inelegantly, just don't fill it.

2.) Purchase a set of Drafting Pencils. Using pencils of known hardness is a cheap and efficient way to determine the hardness of your alloy. Here's a link on the Lead and Lead Alloys forum:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?75455-Testing-hardness-with-pencils

3.) If you have not, read Fryxell's "Ingot to Target" specifically in reference to page 35, HP's:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?110213-From-Ingot-to-Target-A-Cast-Bullet-Guide-for-Handgunners

[justindad]

I have had large burrs in brass and aluminum molds from NOE that could not be worked out by simply breaking in the mold. Look at the corners formed by lube grooves, vent lines, and other intersections - that is where the most challenging ones are at. Rub the burrs with a strip of leather and see if that helps.

[475AR]

If this was your first casting then I would suggest several more heat cycles to help break in the mold. Several of my brass molds required 3-4 hot casting sessions before they started working well.
Also was the sticking due to the cavity or the hp pin? Some of my MP hp molds I have to heat the pins more so the bullet releases cleanly.

[GhostHawk]

Liquid Wrench Dry Lubricant. A couple of drops on a q-tip and work the sticky cavity over both sides. Also the top of the sprue plate and the sprue plate holes. Then warm the mold with it open and let it dry. When it is up to temp try casting with it.

On my Lee 6 cavity aluminum molds bullets rain.

[Forrest r]

You might consider letting your backstop blend cast hp's air cool when casting. Most of my casting and shooting needs are done with range lead/backstop blend. It's a pretty consistent 8/9bhn when air cooled but can be anywhere from 10bhn to 13 bhn when water dropped.

https://i.imgur.com/fo57jjU.jpg

All 4 of those bullets pictured above were cast from my 8/9bhn range scrap.
Top left: Is a hollow based swc that I put a hp in with a forester hp tool. It was cast and air cooled. A closeup of the same recovered bullet.
https://i.imgur.com/FTFbMo6.jpg
Top right: Is a 220gr bhwc turned backwards to make a huge hp. That bullet was water dropped and as you can see it shattered instead of expanding. The same bullet when cast/air cooled.
https://i.imgur.com/td95NhG.jpg
Bottom left: A 200gr thompson style swc that was cast & air cooled.
Bottom right: another hb bullet that I put a hp in using a forester hp tool. It was cast and water dropped and didn't even come close to expanding.

[cwlongshot]

With one single cavity giving problems. I will tell
You its a problem unique to that cavity. Its NOT seasoning.

Get a good light and magnufyer and some pulled Q tips and start inspections!! You will see whats going in. I suspect a imperfection ie a burr.
Also check the HP assembly. It should slide smoothly without resistance. NOE HP design is quite problematic.

Good luck

CW

[Misery-Whip]

Some may cringe here, but to any new mold especially lee, ill take 1000grit sandpaper on a small block and hit the top surface under the sprue plate, the bottom f the sprue plate and the mating halves of the blocks. Im talking 10 careful strokes on all surfaces. I do dissassemble the mold, but leave the pins in. Then after degreasing ill hit it with kroil, a liquid wrench in an orange spray can and wipe it off. I cast with the mold until the wrinkles stop, and usually all is good there after. Ive never seen a burr in a cavity, not sayin it cant happen. But lees always have them on the mating surfaces.

[Mk42gunner]

I’ve always dropped my cast boolets in a 5 gallon bucket of water because it was the easiest way to land them without damage. Never tried any other method.


This is probably your problem. You are basically making the bullets too hard to expand.

Try dropping them on an old pair of jeans that will be relegated to no longer wearable. Most resources say use a towel, but I had an old pair of blue jeans and all my towles were too good to waste when I started. Basically any non meltable cloth will work.

Robert

[jimb16]

If there are tiny burrs on the edges of the mold, try rubbing the edges with a small hard wood dowel. That usually works for me. It id less aggressive than anything else that I know of.

[megasupermagnum]

I have that exact same mold and shoot it in 45 acp. If you would like, I can send you a handful cast of 20:1 alloy to try. Based on the pretty crazy expansion I saw at 900 fps, I think they would perform well at a lower velocity.

[Barry54]

1.) IDK how to advise you on mold release. In the short term, you can avoid the cavity that sticks. Inelegantly, just don't fill it.

2.) Purchase a set of Drafting Pencils. Using pencils of known hardness is a cheap and efficient way to determine the hardness of your alloy. Here's a link on the Lead and Lead Alloys forum:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?75455-Testing-hardness-with-pencils

3.) If you have not, read Fryxell's "Ingot to Target" specifically in reference to page 35, HP's:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?110213-From-Ingot-to-Target-A-Cast-Bullet-Guide-for-Handgunners

Thanks for the link about the drafting pencils! Great idea. I read about a dozen pages in that thread and think I understand the technique.

Yes I read that last month when the topic was what happened to the lasc site. Page 35 age hardening was something I hadn’t committed to memory. I was more concerned about water quenching. I need to learn a new method. 20:1 is preferred!

[Barry54]

If this was your first casting then I would suggest several more heat cycles to help break in the mold. Several of my brass molds required 3-4 hot casting sessions before they started working well.
Also was the sticking due to the cavity or the hp pin? Some of my MP hp molds I have to heat the pins more so the bullet releases cleanly.

The sticking was particularly bad on the right side of the third cavity. I’ll put it under my illuminated magnifying glass and check for burrs before I attempt to use it again. I did heat the mold three times in the oven like the included instructions said but then I got to thinking that might have been strictly for aluminum molds. It will get hotter casting than I got it in the oven.

[Barry54]

I have that exact same mold and shoot it in 45 acp. If you would like, I can send you a handful cast of 20:1 alloy to try. Based on the pretty crazy expansion I saw at 900 fps, I think they would perform well at a lower velocity.

Thank you. That’s a very generous offer! I’ll have to figure out private messages on this site now. I’ve got a zip-loc bag of 40 S&W brass I was planning to put up on the pay it forward page, but if you want first shot at them, they’re yours. Deprimed and wet tumbled.

[475AR]

The sticking was particularly bad on the right side of the third cavity. I’ll put it under my illuminated magnifying glass and check for burrs before I attempt to use it again. I did heat the mold three times in the oven like the included instructions said but then I got to thinking that might have been strictly for aluminum molds. It will get hotter casting than I got it in the oven.

I don't do the oven thing, I use a hot plate and cast 750-800* depending on the mold (more cavities more heat) and I cast 300-400 bullets per session and if they are consistent I will process them and shoot them. If they are not consistent they go back in the pot and re-cast. I did have 1 brass 41 cal mold that I had to do this process 6X, but it finally started casting great and very consistent.

[44Blam]

Sometimes hollow point molds are hard. I find it is best to smoke the cavities and points and then cast hot and keep everything hot.
So, my casting flow for keeping things hot is:
Pour, clean up bad boolits and sprue from last cast, break sprue and drop boolits. Immediately repeat without looking at what you just dropped. This way the mold stays hot with hot metal in it while you deal with culls/sprues...
This also kind of speeds things up a little.

With non-point molds, I generally cast, break sprue, drop boolits, inspect / reject, drop sprue back in and repeat.

[Winger Ed.]

For speeds close to or under 1,000 fps I've had good luck with more or less pure Lead, and just enough Tin or wheel weights
to get a good fill out while running the mold/pot on the hot side.
When I get a little bit of frosting, I slow down or lower the pot temp until it stops.

Lead is cheap compared to the other 'goodies' like Tin or ingots of a specific alloy.
Also, the softer the alloy, the better your hollow points will expand.

For mold burs that you can feel, but not exactly see- I rub the mold on my leg while wearing old blue jeans.
It might take a few times, but it's hard to ruin a mold doing it compared to more 'aggressive' methods.

[Land Owner]

From a thread on the Lead Forum here:

Investigate the ratio:
1:10 = 10% Tin
1:16 = 6.25% "
1:20 = 5% "
1:40 = 2.5% "
1:50 = 2% "

Consider the cost of alloy @ $10.00 per pound of Tin and @ $1.00 per pound of Lead
1:10 = (1# x $10.00) + (9# x $1.00) = $19.00 for 10 pounds of alloy = $1.90 per pound
1:16 = (1# x $10.00) + (15# x $1.00) = $25.00 for 16 pounds = $1.56 per pound
1:20 = $29.00 for 20#'s = $1.45 per pound
1:30 = $1.30 per pound
1:40 = $1.23 per pound
1:50 = $1.18 per pound

Fryxell states (pg. 35), HP alloy at 1:20 tin to lead ratio. Later in the book he suggests HP alloy with at least 2% tin (pgs. 126 through 131) and as Winger Ed and I suggest.

Consider, at these inflated times, how often you will pull the trigger with 1:20 alloy ($1.45/lb) vs. 1:50 alloy ($1.18/lb)! We all need that $0.27 cost differential to buy three (3) primers, or so it would seem.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Hollow point questions

SNIP>>>

Now for what was in the pot. It was probably 1/2 full of whatever was casting well last time. Some unknown blend of wheelweights and my other purchased ingots. I was told that they were bullet cores from a military range. I filled up the 20 pound furnace with the backstop ingots and added probably 1/4 roll of solder for tin.

I’ve always dropped my cast boolets in a 5 gallon bucket of water because it was the easiest way to land them without damage. Never tried any other method.

You should try casting with your straight range scrap, and air cool.
BUT, If you don't like the air drop technique for whatever reason, you could try annealing your waterdropped boolits that were cast from your straight range scrap. I bet they will be soft enough.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The sticking was particularly bad on the right side of the third cavity. I’ll put it under my illuminated magnifying glass and check for burrs before I attempt to use it again. I did heat the mold three times in the oven like the included instructions said but then I got to thinking that might have been strictly for aluminum molds. It will get hotter casting than I got it in the oven.
I have found that new NOE HP molds need the pins "polished", then heat cycled a few times with the mold, to develop a patina/oxidation...Oven 400º for a half hour, then allow to cool at room temp...repeat a few times.

[WRideout]

Some of my Lee Al molds can be sticky. I have found that a [I]light[I] coating of automotive bulb grease in the cavities can cure it after about three or four pours to eliminate wrinkled boolits. Alternatively, I have used the spray silicon lube, but found it puts way too much on.

Wayne

[megasupermagnum]

Thank you. That’s a very generous offer! I’ll have to figure out private messages on this site now. I’ve got a zip-loc bag of 40 S&W brass I was planning to put up on the pay it forward page, but if you want first shot at them, they’re yours. Deprimed and wet tumbled.

I have no need for the brass, thanks. I sent you a PM. Check the top right of the page.

[Barry54]

So busy helping people the mailbox is full!
[smilie=w: megasupermagnum has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.

[megasupermagnum]

I fixed it. You can reply now.

[fredj338]

Unless the hp is very deep & wide, you cant expect mush expansion below 800fps or so. Cast soft, 30-1, big hp, it will mushroom just fine at 750 or so.
Make sire the pins have no machine marks, you can try mold release & you want the pins hot, so cast at a bit higher temp than normal.

[megasupermagnum]

Unless the hp is very deep & wide, you cant expect mush expansion below 800fps or so. Cast soft, 30-1, big hp, it will mushroom just fine at 750 or so.
Make sire the pins have no machine marks, you can try mold release & you want the pins hot, so cast at a bit higher temp than normal.

It is very deep and wide. The HP on the 452-232 is gargantuan. I'm sending him some cast of 20:1 to try.

[fredj338]

It is very deep and wide. The HP on the 452-232 is gargantuan. I'm sending him some cast of 20:1 to try.
Under 800, i would go 30-1. I run 20-1 with cup points running 1200+.

[rockrat]

As said, I would try air cooling your alloy. You could probably have left out the partial roll of solder and been just fine.

[Professor]

My NOE molds required quite a bit of coaxing. They now cast great but were very slow to get all cavities running. I think it's the aluminum. Yours being brass may have its own issues. I'm using MP brass molds and not experienced any of my old problems. Just have to figure out the temp each likes to run best at.

[pjh421]

An electric heat gun if you have one, can provide heat in a very specific area (like your hp pins). Easy does it. Creep up on it. If you haven’t fixed your cavity yet, consider a very gentle lapping. If you want to try this, get the mould up to temp. Cast a boolit in that cavity and cut the sprue. Leave the boolit inside the mould and let everything cool so you can handle it with bare hands. Disassemble the sprue plate from the mould. Mark the center of the boolit base with a prick punch. Drill a hole in the base of the boolit while it’s still captured in its cavity. Don’t go through the boolit and into the mould metal. Turn an appropriately sized sheet metal screw into the hole in the base of the boolit. I like hex headed screws so I can use a nut driver on them. Carefully open the blocks and capture the boolit/screw assembly from the problem cavity. Coat the boolit with automotive valve lapping compound. Just a light coating works fine. Replace the coating boolit/screw assembly into the problem cavity and work it around until you either get the mould closed or are close to doing that. Attach your nut driver and gently twist while still attempting to close the mould. The goal is to get the boolit to make a complete revolution with the blocks closed. As soon as you attain this degree of fit, stop. Clean everything up with brake cleaner and Q-Tips. Whatever minuscule bits of mould metal that were hanging onto your castings should be gone and the mould should drop freely. Too much lapping will cause an egg shaped cavity so go slowly through the process and sneak up on the goal. I’ve done this exact process many times and it works. If everything was lined up and properly dimensioned from the gitgo the mould would rain boolits, which it’s not. It sure is nice to not have to beat the handles every time you open the mould.

[Barry54]

It is very deep and wide. The HP on the 452-232 is gargantuan. I'm sending him some cast of 20:1 to try.

Your package arrived in the mail today! The post office tried to destroy it but the tape on the box on the inside saved the day.

I got my set of 12 pencils yesterday for comparing alloy hardness.

On top of all that I read about the lanolin/Heet blend of case lube. I’d been using the Lee car wax case lube and applying it one at a time on each piece. Dreaded it...
The lanolin works like a charm! My poor tumbler has been working overtime this week.

Thank you all for all your help and especially thank you for sending the samples for me to try out!

[Teddy (punchie)]

pencil lead the mold, olive oil. I had a brass mold with the range lead I had it was like solder it was a pain to get seasoned. Not to talk about getting the sweated lead off of the brass mold.

[Barry54]

Carefully open the blocks and capture the boolit/screw assembly from the problem cavity. Coat the boolit with automotive valve lapping compound. Just a light coating works fine. Replace the coating boolit/screw assembly into the problem cavity and work it around until you either get the mould closed or are close to doing that. Attach your nut driver and gently twist while still attempting to close the mould. The goal is to get the boolit to make a complete revolution with the blocks closed. As soon as you attain this degree of fit, stop. Clean everything up with brake cleaner and Q-Tips. Whatever minuscule bits of mould metal that were hanging onto your castings should be gone and the mould should drop freely. Too much lapping will cause an egg shaped cavity so go slowly through the process and sneak up on the goal. I’ve done this exact process many times and it works. If everything was lined up and properly dimensioned from the gitgo the mould would rain boolits, which it’s not. It sure is nice to not have to beat the handles every time you open the mould.[/QUOTE]

“It sure is nice not to have to beat the handles” Thanks for the detailed instructions for lapping the cavity. I’m curious why too much twisting would cause an egg shaped condition?

I’ll give the mold another couple of chances to straighten out on it’s own before I get aggressive with it. I intend to put a flat point pin in the third cavity and see if that helps.

If I had a troublesome Lee mould, I’d get right with the valve lapping compound, but at 5-6 times the cost for this brass mold, I’m going to try to be patient and see if more use will help any.

I don’t remember the model number but my first NOE mold was a 30 caliber tumble lube at approximately 230 grains for 300 Whisper. It was trouble free right out of the box.

[Barry54]

pencil lead the mold, olive oil. I had a brass mold with the range lead I had it was like solder it was a pain to get seasoned. Not to talk about getting the sweated lead off of the brass mold.

I had read somewhere about using a pencil to apply graphite to a mold cavity. That’s one of the reasons I tried powdered graphite with a q-tip, but it didn’t stick.

Maybe I’ll try one of the soft pencils from my new set.

[pjh421]

I can’t actually promise that you would get an egg shaped cavity but it’s a rare mould that drops perfectly round castings, so your lead lap is not actually round to begin with and of course the cavity is not round. Combine this with having to start the lap moving while the blocks are perhaps still slightly open and the probability that the nut driver and screw are not likely in perfect alignment with the long axis of the cavity. You can see how the lap might cut more on one side than on the other. By keeping the cutting to a minimum you can probably get whatever is holding onto your boolit out of there without removing anything extra. It doesn’t take much and if it still won’t drop you can always go back and try it a little more. I’ve never had to do it twice to the same cavity. It seems like sometimes I’ll get a mould with a cavity that is not perfectly bisected by the part line. I can’t prove that nor even attempt to measure it but I’ve long suspected that situation to be the culprit.

[megasupermagnum]

I can't wait to see how they do. Those aren't my best castings ever. They are unsorted, but there should be enough good ones in there.

[Barry54]

I can't wait to see how they do. Those aren't my best castings ever. They are unsorted, but there should be enough good ones in there.

I was surprised at how many you sent me. Thank you! I immediately tried the fingernail test on one when I opened the package and they are softer than what I had cast.

It’s spring here. Already cut the lawn twice this year... put new blades on the mower yesterday. Trying to make a big push to accomplish stuff outside before the weeds and bugs take over. Only 221 more days till November.

I’m looking forward to testing them as well. Still accumulating water vessels currently. Need to put batteries in the chronograph and verify it. So much to do.

[megasupermagnum]

If I didn't mention, those are certified 20-1 alloy. I think I bought those ingots from buffalo arms.

[Larry Gibson]

For 800 +/- fps I use 40-1 if maximum reliable expansion is wanted.

[Walks]

An electric heat gun if you have one, can provide heat in a very specific area (like your hp pins). Easy does it. Creep up on it. If you haven’t fixed your cavity yet, consider a very gentle lapping. If you want to try this, get the mould up to temp. Cast a boolit in that cavity and cut the sprue. Leave the boolit inside the mould and let everything cool so you can handle it with bare hands. Disassemble the sprue plate from the mould. Mark the center of the boolit base with a prick punch. Drill a hole in the base of the boolit while it’s still captured in its cavity. Don’t go through the boolit and into the mould metal. Turn an appropriately sized sheet metal screw into the hole in the base of the boolit. I like hex headed screws so I can use a nut driver on them. Carefully open the blocks and capture the boolit/screw assembly from the problem cavity. Coat the boolit with automotive valve lapping compound. Just a light coating works fine. Replace the coating boolit/screw assembly into the problem cavity and work it around until you either get the mould closed or are close to doing that. Attach your nut driver and gently twist while still attempting to close the mould. The goal is to get the boolit to make a complete revolution with the blocks closed. As soon as you attain this degree of fit, stop. Clean everything up with brake cleaner and Q-Tips. Whatever minuscule bits of mould metal that were hanging onto your castings should be gone and the mould should drop freely. Too much lapping will cause an egg shaped cavity so go slowly through the process and sneak up on the goal. I’ve done this exact process many times and it works. If everything was lined up and properly dimensioned from the gitgo the mould would rain boolits, which it’s not. It sure is nice to not have to beat the handles every time you open the mould.

Best method I've heard/read yet. An absolutely great well detailed set of instructions. ��

[Barry54]

Making progress. Quick update for all y’all. I loaded some 230 grains j-word pull downs I bought from RMR and tested with the same charge weight of N310 and tried out the new Caldwell chronograph. I was surprised to see velocity in the upper 600 range.

So changed gears and switched to 3N38 powder and worked up to nine grains using the harder alloy HPs I cast. I got a ten shot average of 948.8 FPS.

Selected five boolets I was gifted and ran them through my Lee sizer. Dabbed on some more LLA with my fingertips and letting them dry.

Fixing to go fill up a Rubbermaid trash can with water near a rose bush I want to burn and hope to kill. Plan to test these five by shooting down into the trash can filled with water. Will update y’all after while.

[Barry54]

Results

Fired and recovered five from certified 20:1 alloy. They are all well expanded and close in diameter. 0.825” on the smallest up to 0.920” on the most expanded one.

Since I had such great results with the higher velocity, I decided to see how the ones I cast would perform going 250 FPS faster than my previous test. They did expand but not as well. Widest was 0.775” and least was 0.630” plus my alloy acts more brittle. One of the five lost about 1/3 of the mushroomed portion.

I will work on uploading photos here in a bit. I tried uploading photos from my phone a few days ago, and the site does not like the format or whatever the computer speak is.

[Barry54]

312264

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Glad it's working out for you. No need for any alloy. Pure lead with a powder coat works fine.
http://i.imgur.com/BV9YcTH.jpg (https://imgur.com/BV9YcTH)
http://i.imgur.com/HWvPiGc.jpg (https://imgur.com/HWvPiGc)

[megasupermagnum]

I'm glad they are working. Looks a lot like one I pulled out of a raccoon. The split one is because I managed to hit the edge of a shovel perfectly. Not on purpose, but cool anyway. That 20:1 is a great alloy. I would use it in most everything if it wasn't 3x the cost of scrap range bullets. Soft, but super tough, and shoots good. I will admit there's nothing wrong with going even softer, I just have 20:1 in my pot.

https://i.ibb.co/9rB37Gk/IMG-20220502-134138336.jpg (https://ibb.co/9rB37Gk)

[Bigslug]

Barry54, sorry I discovered this thread late, but you may find my work here helpful: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?269789-Careful-Analysis-of-Segregated-Range-Scrap-Smelt&highlight=segregated+range+scrap

The Cliff's Notes version is that it's a nerdy breakdown of some of the common metals we scrounge. The final determination on jacketed bullet cores is that they are a very low antimony content mix (0.3% on the sample I had XRF-scanned) and it hardness tested around 9BHN - or around 30-1 lead/tin equivalent. This would make it a good base for hollowpoints, but you'll want to stay away from water-quenching anything with antimony if your intent is expansion at low speed. My standard receptacle for air cooling has been the cardboard lid off a printer paper reams box lined with a ratty old bath towel.

Your bullet is very similar to the LBT 230 LFN (a touch longer with an added crimp groove) of which I'm a big fan. If you run it as a solid at GI hardball speed (830fps) of a non-expanding alloy, you can expect it to run in the nine milk jug range for water penetration with dynamic rupturing of the first three before it settles down into a simple hole punch. 230 grain jacketed duty loads that usually go about 14" in FBI Jell-O are typically 3-juggers. I'd be ecstatic to get a cast HP into a 4th, but an expanded .45 in that weight range is a big parachute, and I'd expect to see occasional bouncing off the back wall of jug#2 / entry wall of jug#3.

[pjh421]

Wow! That’s really nice work! Both of you.