Cream of Wheat in Bottle Neck cases?

[Dhall_37]

As I do more exploring and research into my Black powder cartridge shooting I’ve become fond of reduced loads and using COW as filler to reduce recoil and save precious black powder!

My main cartridges are 42 berdan and 11mm Gras. I like to reduce the 42 berdan down to about 65 grains from 77 with my 385 grain bullets. This has worked well for me, but I read somewhere that filler shouldn’t be used in a bottleneck case as it can “ring” a chamber. Is that hocus pocus? My 11MM Gras dies actually say to use it!!! I’ve never heard of this actually happening? Seems silly that some little grits can ring a chamber but not a massive wad like the original 577-450 martini used???

[Gunor]

Could use 5/8” foam backer rod? For this space…

[BLAHUT]

Could use 5/8” foam backer rod? For this space…

I tried this, the out come was not good, bulged the cases.

[racepres]

I have Only heard of Ringed Chamber with Fillers such as Dacron..pillow ticking and such... Only concern with COW, corn meal, etc has been that it could bottle up at the bottle neck... ie act as a Plug... Not good for Pressure... certainly.. But, I have Never used anything But COW, or corn meal.. then only in cases with minimal shoulder like 8X57, a couple of times, 30-30, ... and of course Straight sided cases... certainly 44 Mag.. I find it reduces or even Cleans Leading... But... Such things should Not be Undertaken Lightly.. Due Diligence!!

Edit; I have Never left bottleneck cases with COW, sit around for over 48 hours or so... I am concerned they Might possibly draw moisture, and thereby damn up at the neck junction... Straight walled cases??? Never even gave it a Thought... I use it whenever I feel like it.. Taking weight of COW into account as projectile weight..

[Dhall_37]

I never was a fan of the backer rod. I was just always under the impression that COW was the best, but now I’ve read “otherwise”.

[Dhall_37]

I have Only heard of Ringed Chamber with Fillers such as Dacron..pillow ticking and such... Only concern with COW, corn meal, etc has been that it could bottle up at the bottle neck... ie act as a Plug... Not good for Pressure... certainly.. But, I have Never used anything But COW, or corn meal.. then only in cases with minimal shoulder like 8X57, a couple of times, 30-30, ... and of course Straight sided cases... certainly 44 Mag.. I find it reduces or even Cleans Leading... But... Such things should Not be Undertaken Lightly.. Due Diligence!!

Some of those big BP rounds have quite the shoulder, but it seems since the bore is also very big it will blow out fine.

[racepres]

Some of those big BP rounds have quite the shoulder, but it seems since the bore is also very big it will blow out fine.
Yes... I didn't consider the Size of the case body... the '06 class ctg being one of the largest I deal with.
Never used anything but a boatload of powder in the True Magnums and Weatherbys...

[ascast]

I have done this with .348 to 11mm Werndl. It must be fired twice to get the body up. Smokeless with COW. Never had any trouble. Never left them around or days either.
Also, not long ago I pulled down about 60 rounds of Dominion brand 11mm Mauser. It was factory loaded and notoriously crap ammo. It would go bang and make smoke, but as a hunting load or whatever it was not good. What I found is this - they were loaded with black powder any any number of cutout disks of newspaper. Sometimes over the primer, some times not. Maybe 5 disks, sometimes 30 or 50. The powder charge was also all over the place. That ammo has been available for , what 70 years or more? I have not heard of any mishaps with 71 or 71/84 rifles using that ammo. So, I am kinda thinking it is some old wifes tale. BUT, I am not going to tell you OK either.

[martinibelgian]

It definitely is a pressure -increasing factor. While the COW might flow freely when under no pressure, imagine 12,000 + psi trying to push the stuff through what is essentially a funnel. At best, it will just increase pressure. At West, it will stretch brass. Ask me how I know...
I prefer airspace, less dangerous.

[RichardB]

Graeme Wright (Shooting the British Double Rifle author) recommends the fluffy white stuff from upholstery. Wad it up, stuff thru the neck. It expands in the case holding the powder in place. It adds only a tiny amount of weight and adds no pressure.

[405grain]

I would definitely recommend against using cream of wheat (or cornmeal) in bottle necked cases. It should be safe in straight walled cases, but not in bottle necked ones. Here's why: Under atmospheric pressure cream of wheat is a loose powder. When compressed under tons per square inch of pressure (like when being fired inside a cartridge case) cream of wheat compressed to about the consistency of particle board. It basically converts into a cellulose plug. This can act as a wad in straight walled cases, which can keep hot combustion gas from blowing by the bullet; creating a better bore seal and preventing barrel leading.

This same compression hardening is the reason that it's not a good idea to use it as a filler in a bottle necked case. If the case has a small step-down between the body and the neck (like for example a 43 Mauser) then there might not be an excessive increase in chamber pressure. On the contrary, if cream of wheat is used in a modern bottle necked cartridge, it would be like trying to force a chunk of wood through a funnel. This would act as a temporary bore obstruction and raise pressures considerably. However, cream of wheat can be used with small charges of pistol powder, and no bullet, to fire form brass when reforming brass for a different cartridge.

There are better and safer fillers to use in bottle necked cartridges. When using a dacron filler, do not pack the filler back against the powder charge. A tuft of polyester fill of 1 grain or less can be used to fill the space between the top of the powder charge and the base of the bullet. It's only purpose is to hold the powder charge back against the primer flash hole. This column of filler will compress as the powder is ignited, and you will have a gradual building of pressure inside the case. If you pack this filler hard down against the powder it will be accelerated forward like a wad when the powder is ignited. When this compressed wad impacts the base of the bullet it will act as a temporary bore obstruction which will suddenly raise chamber pressure.

You should only use a fiber filler when loading charges of slower burning powders that do not fill the case well. I only use a filler when loading things like 30-06 or 7x57 Mauser with IMR-3031 cast loads. As a matter of choice I don't use a filler of any kind when using double based powders - the nitroglycerin content should allow consistent ignition without the need for a filler. As far as cream of wheat goes, I would have no qualms about using it in a 45-70, but using it in something like a 257 Roberts would be like playing Russian roulette.

[elmacgyver0]

I have never used a filler, but how would using those puffed rice shipping peanuts work?

[Dhall_37]

It definitely is a pressure -increasing factor. While the COW might flow freely when under no pressure, imagine 12,000 + psi trying to push the stuff through what is essentially a funnel. At best, it will just increase pressure. At West, it will stretch brass. Ask me how I know...
I prefer airspace, less dangerous.

I prefer air space with smokeless, but Black is completely different.

[Dhall_37]

I would definitely recommend against using cream of wheat (or cornmeal) in bottle necked cases. It should be safe in straight walled cases, but not in bottle necked ones. Here's why: Under atmospheric pressure cream of wheat is a loose powder. When compressed under tons per square inch of pressure (like when being fired inside a cartridge case) cream of wheat compressed to about the consistency of particle board. It basically converts into a cellulose plug. This can act as a wad in straight walled cases, which can keep hot combustion gas from blowing by the bullet; creating a better bore seal and preventing barrel leading.

This same compression hardening is the reason that it's not a good idea to use it as a filler in a bottle necked case. If the case has a small step-down between the body and the neck (like for example a 43 Mauser) then there might not be an excessive increase in chamber pressure. On the contrary, if cream of wheat is used in a modern bottle necked cartridge, it would be like trying to force a chunk of wood through a funnel. This would act as a temporary bore obstruction and raise pressures considerably. However, cream of wheat can be used with small charges of pistol powder, and no bullet, to fire form brass when reforming brass for a different cartridge.

There are better and safer fillers to use in bottle necked cartridges. When using a dacron filler, do not pack the filler back against the powder charge. A tuft of polyester fill of 1 grain or less can be used to fill the space between the top of the powder charge and the base of the bullet. It's only purpose is to hold the powder charge back against the primer flash hole. This column of filler will compress as the powder is ignited, and you will have a gradual building of pressure inside the case. If you pack this filler hard down against the powder it will be accelerated forward like a wad when the powder is ignited. When this compressed wad impacts the base of the bullet it will act as a temporary bore obstruction which will suddenly raise chamber pressure.

You should only use a fiber filler when loading charges of slower burning powders that do not fill the case well. I only use a filler when loading things like 30-06 or 7x57 Mauser with IMR-3031 cast loads. As a matter of choice I don't use a filler of any kind when using double based powders - the nitroglycerin content should allow consistent ignition without the need for a filler. As far as cream of wheat goes, I would have no qualms about using it in a 45-70, but using it in something like a 257 Roberts would be like playing Russian roulette.

Do these same techniques apply with Black Powder? When I do reduced smokeless I don’t use fillers at all.

[405grain]

"Do these same techniques apply with Black Powder?"
With either smokeless or black powder I don't think its a good idea to use cream of wheat (or cornmeal) as a filler with bottle necked cases. It should be no problem using it with straight walled cases. I rambled a bit, and was pointing out that polyester fillers are a better choice with bottle necked cartridges - but these are almost always used in smokeless loads.

I went online and checked out the 42 Berdan and the 11mm Gras. The 42 Berdan has a gently sloping shoulder, and the case neck is only a little bit smaller than the case body. You may be able to get away with using a cream of wheat filler in this cartridge without too much trouble. But the 11mm Gras has a case neck that's quite a bit smaller than the case body. Also, the shoulder on the 11mm Gras is at a sharper angle. I think that I'd pass on using cream of wheat as a filler in the Gras. There are other materials that can be used for a wad in that cartridge, such as shot buffer or a plug of Styrofoam. Those won't get hard and will squeeze down pretty good when under pressure.

[racepres]

By My Visuals.. those shoulders are both more gentle, and the necks closer in size related to the body, than Any I have done... But...certainly Err on the side of Caution... Not My Gun.
I am the guy that don't trust that "pillow ticking".. so a very poor judge perhaps!
Also, I use it for fireforming with No Projectile...except a Wax Plug. Or behind a lead projectile to "clean" barrels.. I do Not believe pillow ticking will accomplish either of those tasks.. so, probably if all I wanted is to hold powder at the primer.. Ticking is probably Best!!

[longbow]

I'll weigh in here on using COW in .303 British.

My reason was that I could not find suitable powders for light to mid range cast bullet loads locally but had a supply of slower powder for jacketed bullets. In most cases iot is not recommended to go below the loading manual starting loads for slow powders or something like less than 80% of the empty volume. If using a filler loading density is always 100%.

I did some internet research and turned up lots of negative commets on using fillers but most of those applied to using a wad pressed down on top of the powder leaving a large empty space between the powder charge and bullet base.

I also found articles with a lot of detail on how to load fillers properly and with good and safe results. Here are a couple of sources:

https://303british.com/cast-bullets-in-the-lee-enfield-rifle/
https://thisoldrifle.com/shooting/castfiller/index.asp

I contacted David Southall who wrote the cast bullet/filler articcle fo r.303 British.com and had some informative conversations with him.

I also found an article stating that adding one teaspoon of powdered graphite per cup of COW was a good thing.

I decided to try the filler so reduce the powder charge, weighed the filler to add to bullet weight then loaded up. I got good results at the range so workeed the powder charge up some with the filler level part way up the neck to it would be compressed a bit at bullet seating. I got better accuracy and good results using the filler so have continued. Also, it worked both for my slower powders normally used in much heavier charges under jacketed bullets and for more typoical faster cast bullet powders. I wouldn't say it replaces a gas check but it does allow higher velocities than with a PB bullet.

As for packing/caking, yes the COW packs fairly hard but I have not found that to be an issue either. I decided to do a test so after loading a bunch of rounds with filler I took 5 and oput them in an open/unsealed plastic bag and put it outside in the early fall and left it through winter over a 10 month period so exposed to temperatures of +20°C to -15°C and whatever humidity was present through sun. rain, snow, freezing, thawing and spring rain and early summer warmn again. I pulled a bullet and checked the COW. It did not appear to be packed anymore than a freshly loaded round. I took those 5 rounds along with rounds stored inside to the range ands shot. I couldn't tell the difference in performance.

So, based on the information I found and personal experience I will say that use of granular filler or shotgun buffer has been safe and beneficial for my loading. I will stress that I did not just add filler to an already max. or near max. load! I started low and worked the loads up with filler. I will agree that use of a filler like this undoubtedly raises pressure but as long as that pressure is safe, who cares? In fact that was one of my goals for using slower powders... to have 100% loading density and enough pressure for proper powder combustion. As long as the resulting pressure is safe for the gun why would I worry about it?

I am more worried about small charges of fast powders like Red Dot or Bullseye because of the ease of double charging. Yes, I know, check every case but really with the small charges of some powders I think it could be pretty easy to get a double charge and people do make mistakes! With the filler every case is at 100% loading density.

I would not use a granular filler with small charges of fast powder because in many cases those are not particularly low pressure loads plus most of the faster powders don't need a filler to burn properly.

I also would not use a granular filler in a cartrige that is significantly over bore like .264 Winchester, .22-250 or similar large bodies small bore cartridges.

Another option that was written up here on Cast Boolits many years ago is the use of Dacron to fill most of the empty space then a scoop of shotgun buffer on top to fill the neck before seating the bullet.

Larry Gibson has posted a lot of info on using Dacron puffs as a filler.

Puff-Lon is a commercially available filler:

http://www.pufflon.com/

I will continue to use COW and possibly Dacron with COW on top.

YMMV

Longbow

[longbow]

Sorry, I drifted a bit. The OP was aksing about BP loads with filler in bottleneck cases. I can't imagine that would be a problem with most BP bottleneck cartridges but that is my opinion only.

Per my previous post, I am not seeing issues using smokless loads with COW in bottleneck cases so I wouldn't expect to see any with BP. After all, if you are reducing the BP charge and adding filler you will most likely be generating less pressure with the reduced load. Also, BP cartridges tend to have fairly gentle slopes on the shoulder so COW or other granular filler should flow through pretty easily.

My apologies, I should have read more thoroughly before posting above.

Longbow

[Rockindaddy]

The best filler is Kapok. Old life jackets had plastic bags filled with the stuff. Works so much better than corn meal for taking up space in large volume black powder cases when using small charges of mid range burn smokeless.

[Hick]

I have never used a filler, but how would using those puffed rice shipping peanuts work?

I would not use them. They are waaaay too dense. The whole idea with things like dacron is that you can take a very small amount (I use 1/4 to 1/2 grain) and pull on it until it is very spread out and fluffy, then slide it into the case above the powder before seating the bullet. It provides virtually no resistance to pressure and readily burns with the powder, but still keeps the powder close to the primer.

[Jungle Dave]

I had to use the dacron back when I had my .450 no.2 NE double. I can't remember the grains of dacron it took, I guess I still have it written down somewhere, but it's just enough to not have airspace. You definitely do not want airspace between a filler and a bullet. That's where dacron comes in, as it expands fluffy. Never had a single problem after years of shooting it with it's load of RL-15. A pleasant cartridge to shoot and low pressure compared to the others.

[GregLaROCHE]

I use COW as a filler with BP in both straight wall cartridges and muzzle loaders. However, my gut feeling tells me to never try it with bottle neck cartridges.

[Rockindaddy]

I have always used Kapok out of old life vests! It is light and fluffy. The stuff packs easy in big cases to take up space and keep the powder charge up against the primer. Kapok does not melt and does not make a mess. When fire forming 348 Winchester cases into 11mm Swiss Vetterli rounds or 11mm Grau; the kapok works good.

[fgd135]

If I have less than a full-to-neck load of BP in my bottleneck black powder cartridges, I now use foam backer rod to fill the space. It's easy to work with, and inexpensive, and provides enough of a platform to support grease cookies in the neck below paper patch bullets. There's no need for a thin card wad over the powder, saving a step over using COW, and it won't settle like COW and become a solid heavy mass when fired.
Do not discount shallow-appearing shoulders in BP cartridges like the BII; one of the reasons I switched to FBR was because of circumferential shoulder cracks resulting from using what turned out to be improper filler materials below the necks of BII cases.

[toot]

I have used TOILET PAPER or TISUE PAPER for over 60 yrs with out any problems for taking up the space in bottle neck cases.

[indian joe]

I feel like a heathen here - never used fillers in any cartridges
My blackpowder loading usually am trying to get a little more powder in rather than less - have never loaded for anything with excess capacity like a 450/577 but there my first approach would be to go to a FG or even cannon grade powder to quieten things down some. That and reducing compression to a minimum. If it still boots too bad ? add some weight to the gun - that dont work, sell it and get something more suitable.

Smokeless ? the manuals will tell what powder - I always looked for the slowest powder that would give best velocity - that gets us closest to full case - dont need fillers - Saving pennies on fast burning powders in large capacity cases is a mugs game I reckon - and then to have to fool around with pillow stuffing to make it work ? - play it at your own risk - I figure theres other things more fun to do.

[Boz330]

I feel like a heathen here - never used fillers in any cartridges
My blackpowder loading usually am trying to get a little more powder in rather than less - have never loaded for anything with excess capacity like a 450/577 but there my first approach would be to go to a FG or even cannon grade powder to quieten things down some. That and reducing compression to a minimum. If it still boots too bad ? add some weight to the gun - that dont work, sell it and get something more suitable.

Smokeless ? the manuals will tell what powder - I always looked for the slowest powder that would give best velocity - that gets us closest to full case - dont need fillers - Saving pennies on fast burning powders in large capacity cases is a mugs game I reckon - and then to have to fool around with pillow stuffing to make it work ? - play it at your own risk - I figure theres other things more fun to do.

I have messed with the 577-450 for several years and that case holds a lot of BP if you fill it up and the Martini is a pretty light rifle. The original load was 85gr of BP with a wool filler. Best groups I ever got were from a case full of Canon grade. Problem was that the gun was so fouled after 5 shots you had to clean it. The recoil wasn't bad with that either. Kapok works well as a filler but I never got good accuracy with it.

Bob.

[martinibelgian]

I feel like a heathen here - never used fillers in any cartridges
My blackpowder loading usually am trying to get a little more powder in rather than less - have never loaded for anything with excess capacity like a 450/577 but there my first approach would be to go to a FG or even cannon grade powder to quieten things down some. That and reducing compression to a minimum. If it still boots too bad ? add some weight to the gun - that dont work, sell it and get something more suitable.

Smokeless ? the manuals will tell what powder - I always looked for the slowest powder that would give best velocity - that gets us closest to full case - dont need fillers - Saving pennies on fast burning powders in large capacity cases is a mugs game I reckon - and then to have to fool around with pillow stuffing to make it work ? - play it at your own risk - I figure theres other things more fun to do.

When shooting 577-450, you don't even think about compression, you look for ways to keep the powder charge reasonable. FWIW, the only filler I use is air. 80-85 grs of Fg, grease cookie, 530gr .468 bullet. And no, they don't explode. FWIW, a full case without any compression would be close to 110grs of powder, and it hurts, I tried it... Also shoots lousy.

[indian joe]

When shooting 577-450, you don't even think about compression, you look for ways to keep the powder charge reasonable. FWIW, the only filler I use is air. 80-85 grs of Fg, grease cookie, 530gr .468 bullet. And no, they don't explode. FWIW, a full case without any compression would be close to 110grs of powder, and it hurts, I tried it... Also shoots lousy.

Did the old original foil cases hold that big charge or were they less capacity because of how they were made?

We used to see Martini cases around the shoots turned from solid brass and they had a straight cylinder for the powder charge -just bored same diameter as the neck - I think held about 75 grains.

Make your own powder and make it screened rather than pucked - best of all worlds - full case charge will be around 85 grains (weight) , 8 - 12 mesh (cannon granulation) grains are easiest to make, use decent ingredients and it will foul less than any commercial powder, once you get the gear together - cost is about 2 bucks a pound or less -- win - win - win all the way home!!!!!

[EdZ KG6UTS]

I have never used a filler, but how would using those puffed rice shipping peanuts work?

Wasn't Quaker Puffed Rice "Shot From Guns"?

EdZ (reference to old B&W TV commercials) ~8^)

[racepres]

Wasn't Quaker Puffed Rice "Shot From Guns"?

EdZ (reference to old B&W TV commercials) ~8^)
Great... Now that diddy is in my Head... I guess I do Not remember if B&W or Color... For Me...B&W as we did Not own a Color TV!!!
Don't remember watching the TV at Neighbors!!! Oh...Maybe McHale's Navy!!!!

[jonp]

I would not use them. They are waaaay too dense. The whole idea with things like dacron is that you can take a very small amount (I use 1/4 to 1/2 grain) and pull on it until it is very spread out and fluffy, then slide it into the case above the powder before seating the bullet. It provides virtually no resistance to pressure and readily burns with the powder, but still keeps the powder close to the primer.

Aren't they made of cornstarch? I would think they would work but I've always used Cream of Wheat.

[elmacgyver0]

Quaker Oats are shot from guns, the guns are what make them good to eat.
I guess that slogan would not go over so well these days.
I did love those commercials.

[elmacgyver0]

I have not used fillers, but how would those rice packing peanuts work for fillers?
For the green crowd, they are biodegradable.

[veeman]

Not all packing peanut are created equal. many are not biodegradable. I've seen some just melt into a glob and makes a mess of the bore. I myself use laundry lint from a load of towels.

[Washington1331]

Rob from the "British Muzzleloaders" YouTube page has quite a few videos on the use of fillers in both bottleneck and straight wall cartridges. For the 577-450 Martini Henry, he recommended a quarter of a standard cotton ball. For the 577 Snider, it was corn meal.

I'd take a look at his videos.

[Gobeyond]

Without a filler to lightly take up a little space how else you going to work up a load of black powder. You have to reduce some. Wads and grease cookie help a little. But 20 grains Ffg for a collar button. Just seat on top of powder way down in case. Full cases are not always accurate. As are not max loads. It’s about conserving powder sometimes. Everybody has their favorite. Everybody here is safe. I prefer a little tuft of Dacron for smokeless and BP. Below the neck.

[Larry Gibson]

I have pressure tested the use of COW in straight walled (45-60) and bottle necked cartridges (30-06 and 35 Remington. The pressures were dramatically higher. I do not recommend the use of COW as a filler. Dacron, yes.