corbin point form

[kokomokid]

Anyone use one of Corbins ultra low drag secant point form dies? Getting ready to order another 6mm die and wanted opinions on this one?

[CWME]

I have two, one in .224 and another in 30cal. I have had a full 6mm set with a 10S and ULD on order for 15 months now.

[BadgerShooter]

I have a 6mm Corbin ULD point forming die. Works well.

[kokomokid]

Have a 10S and going to try a 12S or ULD. Things all have to be perfect for me to get a 1" group at 350yds with the 10S. That may be as good as it gets for me.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

The way Dave Corbin processes orders is not necessarily the order in which they were received. He takes orders in which they were received, but runs all those dies that are on order. So if someone ordered a 6mm 10s PF die 15 months ago and you order one tomorrow, those 2 orders, plus all other 6mm 10s PF dies will be made at the same time. So if someone’s been waiting for 15 months for a certain die, there’s a good chance if you order the same die that you wait time will be relatively short. I hope that makes sense.

[CWME]

IllinoisCoyoteHunter, it does make sense. They were making .224 stuff at Christmas time I would assume. Got my 22 set on Christmas eve.

Kokomokid, what are you getting for groups with other bullets at 350 yards that makes a sub 1/3rd MOA group bad?

[kokomokid]

I only shoot loads at 350 yds that shoot tight groups at 100 and then under very good conditions. When mirage starts up I usually shoot my Berger or Bib test loads and go to the house. They usually fall into 1.10 to 1.20 inch groups and sometimes larger. The Bib and Berger are boat tail.

[Alex_4x4]

For information: Dave Corbin sold his company and his former company has new owners. Dave Corbin stayed with his former company as a consultant.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Yes. Dave will stick around for about a year as a consultant. The new owners have no plans on changing anything. All current employees will continue to work there.

[kokomokid]

Yep Dave is almost retirement age as are almost all the die makers. If you want to call almost 80 retirement age.

[CWME]

Good to know that the plans are to keep things the same. Have about 3K in orders pending.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Yeah as long as their main die maker doesn’t decide to retire we should all be good for now. He’s in his 70s.

[SSG_Reloader]

Pair new owners with the way material costs are increasing and I'm gonna venture a guess that prices will probably increase quite a bit within the year.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

It’s not the material costs that’s going to be an issue. It’s the material availability that’s hurting them right now.

[SSG_Reloader]

Which leads directly to an increase in price if it's something you need doesn't it? Pretty much anything is available if you've got the Benjamin's and are willing to pay, exactly like primers.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Wrong. There is a legit lack of material. Like you can’t get it if you’ve got all the money in the world. If the mills aren’t making it, no amount of money can buy it.

We run several jobs where I work and use 06 tool steel. It’s just not out there and I’ve talked to Dave about it because that’s what they use for their dies. He’s been lucky if he can get a small portions of his orders. Our project managers were told that the mills were not making it like they used to and they are going to quit making many sizes they once offered.

[Willbird]

Wrong. There is a legit lack of material. Like you can’t get it if you’ve got all the money in the world. If the mills aren’t making it, no amount of money can buy it.

We run several jobs where I work and use 06 tool steel. It’s just not out there and I’ve talked to Dave about it because that’s what they use for their dies. He’s been lucky if he can get a small portions of his orders. Our project managers were told that the mills were not making it like they used to and they are going to quit making many sizes they once offered.

That IMHO is a sign that the world has moved on from that material for the most part. Sure there are still some users but they are more of a boutique product and maybe not spending enough total $$ for anybody to make product for them. The stuff does not go bad so maybe some cooperation between users could secure a large run of the material.

Bill

[Alex_4x4]

That IMHO is a sign that the world has moved on from that material for the most part. ...

Why?

[wyowillys46]

For information: Dave Corbin sold his company and his former company has new owners. Dave Corbin stayed with his former company as a consultant.

That's interesting news. In his last email to me a few weeks ago he said they were working on improvements in methods of productions and logistics to move things along better. Which is good, since they're only now working on orders from September 2021.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

They need to get some CNC machines in that place. That would be a big improvement.

[KAYDADOG]

Dave sent me a one-page response about a month ago about the status of the company and how it is running after I wanted an update on a current order. If he's lucky there are maybe two highly skilled die makers on the payroll. Because of his location in Oregon, you're not located where most of the skilled labor resides, probably problem number one. If you're buying a die set, you want to have it made correctly the first time and every time. Over the years Corbin has kept his prices almost the same and that will probably change very soon.

Dave stated his backorder is about 18-months and that is due to the number of employees and the skilled die makers who can make the finished dies. I'm currently waiting eight months for the last H-die set I will probably ever buy to make a 0.458" caliber. Their looking at the orders and trying to better consolidate making all similar orders at the same time instead of one order at a time. If not done this way in the past it should have been to streamline the process better.

I agree CNC machines are the only way to go for over the last fifteen years. Depending on the size and future potential of the business the initial equipment cost will be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Then you need the personnel to program and run the equipment. Being located in Oregon that may be going back to problem number one. Say you get everything up and running and you're slowly catching up to your backlog. Depending on how many machines were installed and employees hired, what happens when your finished orders are now turned out faster than new orders received?

I'm sure Dave's intent was to keep the business small and manageable. In the last ten years there was just a greater interest in making your own bullets resulting in an influx of orders. Dave probably wasn't complaining getting all the business, just how to get everything made in a timely manner.

If it's true Dave has sold the business, what do you think is going to happen in the near future?
Prices are going to go up and there will be a considerable increase in die prices.
If the business does continue to grow in the future several CNC machines need to get up and running to keep up with demand and quality.
Adding any equipment and adding more employees will certainly increase the cost of what is sold.

I'll be watching his site in the years to come to see if there are any major changes.
I'll see if his $50 replacement punches remain the same price.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Cnc machines would make him FAR more efficient, and probably even a bit cheaper in the long run. He’s having a lot of his dies and punches blanked out by CNC shops and then they put it back up in manual machines to finish it. That’s just downright silly. Not to mention he’s adapting a lot of old new stock dies (ie 22 lr derimmer) to work in newer style presses (H type press). A quick redesign and prototype would be super fast on CNCs.

Putting a semi finished part up in a manual lathe, getting it running, and then manually machining it is far more difficult that having a low skilled person load parts and push a button. As long as they can read calipers lol. Chances are most everything gets heat treated and then put back up in the hones or cylindrical grinders. Use your experienced guys there. I know it’s easier said than done, most of the time lol.

[Willbird]

Why?

Because the market apparently does not buy enough for a steel supplier to put any priority on making it.

Bill

[Willbird]

Cnc machines would make him FAR more efficient, and probably even a bit cheaper in the long run. He’s having a lot of his dies and punches blanked out by CNC shops and then they put it back up in manual machines to finish it. That’s just downright silly. Not to mention he’s adapting a lot of old new stock dies (ie 22 lr derimmer) to work in newer style presses (H type press). A quick redesign and prototype would be super fast on CNCs.

Putting a semi finished part up in a manual lathe, getting it running, and then manually machining it is far more difficult that having a low skilled person load parts and push a button. As long as they can read calipers lol. Chances are most everything gets heat treated and then put back up in the hones or cylindrical grinders. Use your experienced guys there. I know it’s easier said than done, most of the time lol.

A past employer used Mazak cnc chuckers exclusively. They are really fast to setup, conversational control so the operator just draws up the part and inputs all the tool information and the machine creates it's own program, you CAN save the program but they typically never did. A new setup took literally only 10 minutes.

That said they are quite expensive too. All of ours had a "sub spindle" too so it could grab the part from the main spindle and allow machining the end that had just been cutoff.

Not sure if the point form inner profiles can be single point bored, perhaps not...maybe they have to ream them ?

Also if you use the machine and it is crucial to your operation it takes some $$ keep it running, having somebody come and fix it pronto was never cheap either.

I wonder what the sum total quantity of hobbyist/semi professional point form dies sold is annually ??

The list of stuff that Corbin will make if you order it is amazing really.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Yep. They do make a lot of stuff. They use roughing and finishing Reamers for the PF dies. I am currently looking into a way to ream a few thou undersized and then single point the main diameter and blend the ogive to the existing ogive the reamer finished.

[Alex_4x4]

Because the market apparently does not buy enough for a steel supplier to put any priority on making it.

Bill

:-)

Something, lately, when I hear the word "market" as an argument, I have an obsessive desire to check if my wallet is in place.

You know, IMHO, I consider the theory more realistic that there are too many "effective managers" and "marketers" who are ready to "simplify technologies and the range of products" for the sake of super profits. As a result, we see the mass appearance of cars with a maximum lifespan of five to ten years, "plastic" weapons and other "disposable joys" of modern civilization.

I am wrong?

[wywindsor]

I have wired several cnc machines over the last few months. The guy I do it for is now willing to make me dies and teach me how. This may take some time and I don't own the machines I will be taught on. However Corbin could have farmed out his machine work. The guy i know build many parts for top notched corps.

[Willbird]

:-)

Something, lately, when I hear the word "market" as an argument, I have an obsessive desire to check if my wallet is in place.

You know, IMHO, I consider the theory more realistic that there are too many "effective managers" and "marketers" who are ready to "simplify technologies and the range of products" for the sake of super profits. As a result, we see the mass appearance of cars with a maximum lifespan of five to ten years, "plastic" weapons and other "disposable joys" of modern civilization.

I am wrong?

There is a thing called "economy of scale" it IMHO just means that if production quantity of something is large then it is exponentially less expensive to manufacture and buy. Quality may be better too. I have read some older textbooks put out by the steel mfg and they detailed how steel bars are made from a large billet. Flaws present in that billet can be present in every bar rolled out from it.

So we would presume that there is some minimum quantity required to trigger the "make a run of this werkstoff" (German/English prints material in English translated to werkstoff in German". And perhaps short supply means that the market moves a LOT quicker if they make other material.

Stressproof is another older material that as I recall gets work hardened in it's mfg.

[Alex_4x4]

Поживём - увидим.

[Alex_4x4]

S-Press
Code: CSP-1
Price: $949.00
-------------------------
Standard punch, type -S
Code: PUNCH-S
Price: $70.00
-------------------------
224 x.705 jackets, pk/500
Code: J-22-705
Price: $75.00
-------------------------
243 x 1.02 jackets, pk/250
Code: J-6M-102
Price: $70.00
-------------------------
.308 x 1.15 jackets, pk/250
Code: J-30-115
Price: $70.00

[barryjyoung]

A past employer used Mazak cnc chuckers exclusively. They are really fast to setup, conversational control so the operator just draws up the part and inputs all the tool information and the machine creates it's own program, you CAN save the program but they typically never did. A new setup took literally only 10 minutes.

That said they are quite expensive too. All of ours had a "sub spindle" too so it could grab the part from the main spindle and allow machining the end that had just been cutoff.

Not sure if the point form inner profiles can be single point bored, perhaps not...maybe they have to ream them ?

Also if you use the machine and it is crucial to your operation it takes some $$ keep it running, having somebody come and fix it pronto was never cheap either.

I wonder what the sum total quantity of hobbyist/semi professional point form dies sold is annually ??

The list of stuff that Corbin will make if you order it is amazing really.

Willbird:

No CNC machines on earth make their own programs. Including conversational controls. I suppose if someone only watches someone who knows what they are doing everything looks simple and slick. We had a long running joke in my CNC shop that all you had to do with CNC is hold up a part, explain to the machine how you wanted it to be different and the machine would make it for you. Doesn't work that way. Super simple parts can be programmed and run very fast on conversational controls, yes, point forming dies are not super simple parts. Point form dies cannot simply be "single point bored". All boring is done with single point tools by the way so it is just called boring. Point form dies are drilled, bored (partially, not completely to the tip, then reamed with custom made reamers, and finally lapped and polished. Among these steps there may be a heat treat operation or three.

Mazak does not make "chuckers" Hardinge does, and they are conventional not CNC.

Thought you should know.

Barry Young