Identify this powder?

[Texas by God]

I pulled down some 32-40 Remington-UMC ammunition that I think is 1930s vintage.
I had expected to find extruded powder similar to 4198 or 3031 but instead found little donuts.
Each cartridge had 24 grs of powder.
I was wondering what our resident historians can tell us about this powder.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230303/a660036e66593e4c8b538c0edfc03e65.jpg


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[Recycled bullet]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230303/908528daae75bca77c7f4fba4b14550c.jpg

Trail Boss??

[stubshaft]

That's what I was thinking but I don't think Trailboss was available for the 32-40.

[Nobade]

One of the bulk smokeless powders they used to make that Trailboss is a copy of. Somebody here will know the name.

[jrmartin1964]

The powder in question appears to be Hercules "Lightning". For many years the published 'standard' load for the .32-40, with a 165-grain jacketed bullet, was 24.0 grains. Hercules discontinued manufacture of "Lightning" in 1958.

Phil Sharpe, in his "Complete Guide to Handloading" gave this description of "Lightning" :
"Black perforated discs, diameter 0.08-inch, thickness 0.02-inch. Originally a Laflin & Rand development, Lightning went to DuPont when that firm absorbed the L. & R. outfit in 1902, and changed hands again in 1914 when assigned by Court order to the newly formed Hercules Powder Company. Lightning has been widely criticized by reloaders because of its erosive qualities, but it is an excellent powder from an accuracy standpoint, and much of the criticism of it is unfounded, particularly when it is used with non-corrosive primers. This is a large-grain powder. The grains warp more or less in drying, and while they are of the perforated “tube” variety, the relation of length to diameter makes them appear to be more like washers than tubes. It is an extremely flexible powder designed for the various hunting cartridges such as .30-30, .303. etc., and is somewhat quicker-burning than either W.A. or HiVel, but slower than Sharpshooter. It is one which burns well under 20,000 pounds and up through the line to 50,000 pounds in cartridges which will handle this pressure. It is an excellent mid-range powder and can be used with plain-base and gas-checks in addition to the standard metal-jacketed types. It is extremely accurate, requires a low weight of charge to develop velocities, and should be weighed rather than measured because of the shape of grains. It can, of course, be metered out in modern powder measures with reasonable success if no attempt is made to load maximum charges."

Jim

[Texas by God]

Thank you Mr Martin!
I am planning on trying some just for the halibut in the 30-30 using 170 gr bullets.
I thought that it might LOOK like TB based on descriptions- I’ve never bought Trail Boss.


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[Nobade]

That's the stuff! Glad somebody has a good memory.

[Texas by God]

In the Now I Know department,
My 40 yard groups were the worst I’ve shot with the C309170F bullet in any rifle.
A fifteen shot “gathering” spread out ten inches or so.
And smoky. No pressure signs with 23 grains of Lightning which convinced me to shoot them up.
A 3 shot group at 100 yards with the same bullet over AA2015 restored my outlook.
I made sure to clean the old powder voodoo from my Mauser[emoji3]


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[BoBSavage]

I pulled 20.3gr of Sharpshooter from a factory 1909 44-40 W.H.V. load, and pulled 25.3gr of Lightning from a Factory 1919 REM-UMC .303 Savage load.



326279


I weighed 20.3gr of the Lightning and took a photograph of them side by side. They are identical by the eye, but highly different in burn rate. This is why it was extremely important back then to not shoot any powder that was not 100% properly identified.

Can you guess which is which?

23.5gr for both Sharpshooter and Lightning
326280

According to Laflin & Rand, the Thickness of the grains is what is supposed to be the dead giveaway....but over the years, by the time Hercules got the powder.....

326283

According to Sharpes 1937,
Sharpshooter #1, from 1897 to 1937, Diameter .08", Thickness .015"
Sharpshooter #2, from 1902 to 1914, Diameter .07", Thickness .02"

Lightning#1, from 1899 to 1937, Diameter .08", Thickness .02"
Lightning#2, from 1903 to 1929, Diameter .06", Thickness .05"

On a side note:
W.A. .30 Caliber powder, 1898 to 1930, Diameter .08", Thickness .045"

Also, the burn rate balance points;

Powder..............CUP..........Tolerance
Sharpshooter...18,000lbs.......wide
Lightning.........30,000lbs....medium
W-A .30 Cal.....36,000lbs.....narrow

[Markopolo]

Did somebody say Halibut???


https://youtu.be/waNoXjjHA9w?si=kizOpLQ-LCl0sNKY

Thread Hijacked!!!:hijack:

[Rockindaddy]

Your article on old powder is interesting. I save old pull down powder these days as modern sporting powder is way overpriced. I used to just throw the old nitro cellulose out in the lawn or garden. Now I have about 3000 rounds of Brazilian 45 ACP that has a propellant similar to Bullseye. Out of the 20K rounds of Argentine Mauser about 7~8 thousand rounds have dead primers. Some case lots are ok others are duds. The propellant is a square flake powder. I reloaded some 30-06 with it and it performs well. It cycles my M1 Garand and the 1917 Browning. Your Lightning should work well for cast boolits in 45-70, 38-55, & military calibers shooting reduced loads.

[BoBSavage]

I pulled 20.3gr of Sharpshooter from a factory 1909 44-40 W.H.V. load, and pulled 25.3gr of Lightning from a Factory 1919 REM-UMC .303 Savage load.



326279


I weighed 20.3gr of the Lightning and took a photograph of them side by side. They are identical by the eye, but highly different in burn rate. This is why it was extremely important back then to not shoot any powder that was not 100% properly identified.

Can you guess which is which?

23.5gr for both Sharpshooter and Lightning
326280

According to Laflin & Rand, the Thickness of the grains is what is supposed to be the dead giveaway....but over the years, by the time Hercules got the powder.....

326283

According to Sharpes 1937,
Sharpshooter #1, from 1897 to 1937, Diameter .08", Thickness .015"
Sharpshooter #2, from 1902 to 1914, Diameter .07", Thickness .02"

Lightning#1, from 1899 to 1937, Diameter .08", Thickness .02"
Lightning#2, from 1903 to 1929, Diameter .06", Thickness .05"

On a side note:
W.A. .30 Caliber powder, 1898 to 1930, Diameter .08", Thickness .045"

Also, the burn rate balance points;

Powder..............CUP..........Tolerance
Sharpshooter...18,000lbs.......wide
Lightning.........30,000lbs....medium
W-A .30 Cal.....36,000lbs.....narrow

Although the two powders look identical, lets take a closer look

327264