Using round nosed 44 caliber bullets in tubular magazine.

[Bazoo]

I am looking at getting a pistol caliber levergun in 44 magnum. Mostly I'll shoot less than magnum loads though. My query is; are round nose 44 bullets, such as the Lee 429-240-2R, safe for tubular magazine use?

I have used round nosed factory jacketed ammo in my 30-30, and I'm comfortable with that, but also large rifle primers are harder to set off than large pistol primers. And 30-30 is less likely to stack right on the primer than the shorter pistol caliber cartridges like 44 special and magnum.

My gut tells me its safe, but I also would like to know if anyone else has done it.

[racepres]

BTDT.. No Problems whatsoever... I suspect an extreme point, on a very hard Boolit may be Problematic... But, I also suspect Common sense would prevail in such an extreme scenario as that..
Note the Radius on that fat round nose.. actually pushing on the outside of the cup/anvil.

[HWooldridge]

I used to shoot a pointed 200 gr bullet in a 44-40, only because someone had given me a box of 500 cast bullets. Before loading in the case, I would set each slug on a metal table and tap the point with a 1 lb ball peen hammer. The resulting flat would be around 1/8 -3/16 in diameter and never seemed to hurt accuracy at the ranges I was shooting (which was seldom over 75 yards).

I don't think you'll have any problems, but you could do the same thing with the Lee version.

[725]

When I size, I choose a fixture that results in a flat (small meplat) on my RN boolits. Fast, easy & uniform.

[Bazoo]

Thanks for the replies.

725, thats not a bad idea, thanks. I'll file that away in the memory banks.

[murf205]

Bazoo, the Lyman 429667 is almost like having your cake and eating it too. A little round and a little flat for "smackability". It does have a slight bevel base but I'm betting Tom @ Accurate could fix that if a good sharp flat base or GC suits your fancy. Keep us posted, this sounds like fun!311173
I just checked his catalogue and this is a a twin of the Lyman, almost , but I think I would rather have his than Lymans.

[sukivel]

When I size, I choose a fixture that results in a flat (small meplat) on my RN boolits. Fast, easy & uniform.

Yeah I’ll file that away to memory as well!


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[Bazoo]

That's the version I was looking at too murf. Thanks.

[trapper9260]

What I do is when I lube and size the boolit I would use a flat top punch and that would take the point off the RN and have no problems. Since i have to size and lube them anyways . You can control more of the flat point this way also.

[georgerkahn]

I am looking at getting a pistol caliber levergun in 44 magnum. Mostly I'll shoot less than magnum loads though. My query is; are round nose 44 bullets, such as the Lee 429-240-2R, safe for tubular magazine use?

I have used round nosed factory jacketed ammo in my 30-30, and I'm comfortable with that, but also large rifle primers are harder to set off than large pistol primers. And 30-30 is less likely to stack right on the primer than the shorter pistol caliber cartridges like 44 special and magnum.

My gut tells me its safe, but I also would like to know if anyone else has done it.

I have both a Henry Model H006 Golden Boy .44 Remington Magnum and a Harrington & Richardson Model 155 Shikari chambered in .44 Remington Magnum and pretty much ALL I shoot are cast round nose bullets. My only "modification" was -- at least on one box of 20 I loaded -- I believe recoil moved the bullets in a tad. As this raised red flags to me vis an increase in pressure -- I took those yet unfired and put a roll crimp (Redding die) on them -- supplementing/complementing (?) the Lee Factory Crimp die I had vis my initial loading. Since, I have used the roll crimp on these. Re handgun -- I have a Ruger Super Blackhawk in this calibre, and while the initial loading worked well, I did not see any negative change(s) from the roll crimp. But, to be 110% up front, this is but a "perceived" result: NOTHING "scientific" (e.g., Ransom rest, chrony results, etc.).
I have had zero "safety" issues, again, using round nose cast bullets in lever rifles.
geo

[mdi]

Early on reloading for my 44 Magnum Puma, I placed some handloads in the bench end to end to see how the bullet noses lined up with the primers of the cartridges in front. With a rimmed cartridge, the nose is a bit off center, below the center of the primer, so I felt OK. But the best bullet I reloaded for my levergun was Ranch Dog's 240 gr and 265 gr RNFPs...

[17nut]

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Tubular+Magazines+are+Safe.pdf&t=ffsb&ia=web

[fecmech]

Some years ago after acquiring my first .357 lever gun I did an experiment. I loaded a half dozen cases with primers only and set them in a vise. I then held a round nosed bullet (WDWW) with needle nose on the primed case and smacked the base with a small hammer. I changed bullets many times but all I succeeded in doing was ruin a half dozen primers, none fired. I know it has happened because there's pictures out there but I'm not going to worry about it.

[quilbilly]

When I size, I choose a fixture that results in a flat (small meplat) on my RN boolits. Fast, easy & uniform.
A few years ago when I started to cast for my 30/30, I discovered that the cowboy seating die from RCBS actually put that small meplat on my round nose 160 gr boolits. Maybe the same is true with the 44 caliber seater die. If my alloy is too hard, I learned that it was a sign my alloy was too hard for my purposes both hunting and targets.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

In my experience with many lever guns, round nose bullets were the only type that would feed without a jam.

[muskeg13]

I've posted this several times before. Rossi Puma .44 Mag debris after a 23 May 2004 magazine tube explosion. This was no amateur experiment, but was a serious injury producing incident requiring multiple surgeries. The bullets being used were plain base commercial cast 200gr rounded flat nose with a very wide meplat, much wider than the diameter of the large pistol primers. While it shouldn't have happened, it didn't matter that day.

311211 311212 311213 311215 311216

[racepres]

^^ Wondering aloud if Rifle Primers were inadvertently used??
Yours??? More to this Story??

[GONRA]

GONRA's GLAD I don't own any tubular magazine guns!

[Rockindaddy]

My friend Ken had a Winchester Model 71 that he converted to 450 Alaskan. The recoil was quite violent. the magazine tube would slide forward and work its way out of the forearm. There is a small cross pin that retains the magazine tube. Yhr magazine tube would still slide forward out of the forearm. He decided to AcraGlass the forearm and magazine tube in place. While shooting his punishing loads the magazine detonated and the forearm exploded. He was driving 400 gr Speer flat points about 2400 fps. His left hand required extensive surgery but his hand was permanently damaged. We figure that one of the cartridges had a high primer that went off in the magazine tube. 450 Alaskan recoil is severe. I doubt your 44 Mag will exert the same recoil forces. For me, all my lever guns get flat point boolits! Why take a chance?

[muskeg13]

^^ Wondering aloud if Rifle Primers were inadvertently used??
Yours??? More to this Story??

Federal 150 Large Pistol, Unique 10.5 gr, new WW cases. Nothing special, but 6 rounds in the magazine went off in a chain fashion (although it seemed instantaneous to me). You can see where each round went off in the tube by the bulges. Once the gas volume built up, with no place to go, the rear of the mag tube pulled free of the receiver and flared out, spewing fragments and blown parts rearward. The mag plug (follower) hit with enough force to punch through my cheek and knock out and break teeth (seen in the photo). The muzzle end cap/plug and mag spring went flying downrange, never to be recovered. Some sizeable case fragments propelled rearward imbedded themselves deeply in my forehead and cheek, others, along with unburnt powder grains barely broke the skin and could be removed with tweezers. There was enough force in the movement of the lead slugs to deform the loading gate and at least one bruised the skin over my right collar bone. A magazine tube explosion is neither a myth nor is something to lightly dismiss.

[Bazoo]

I appreciate all the responses here.

Muskeg13, WOW! It was you that was injured? I'm sorry to hear of this. I know that things like this do happen sometimes even when they shouldn't. Do you have a thread on this with more details? I'm certainly sorry to hear of it, but I would like to know more. Thank you for sharing what you have thus far.

Oops, we were typing at the same time I reckon. Thank you for sharing more. Wow that is crazy. How extensive were your injuries? Not to imply that what you mentioned isn't extensive!

[muskeg13]

Not the same recoil forces as a .450 Alaskan, but enough to create a problem that day! By any chance had your friend been topping off his magazine in between shots? I ask, because that's what I'd been doing. Instead of a high primer, I believe soft points like your friend was using, and soft alloy slugs like I'd been using, may have deformed and extruded under recoil into the primer pockets of the cartridge ahead of it, eventually setting off a primer. And when one goes, they all go.

When I pieced the rifle back together, I drilled a series of 1/8" gas relief ports along mag tube where they can't be seen under the forearm. I'd rather have the forearm splinter and hopefully manage with minor hand injuries than have one go off in my face again.

[BamaNapper]

If round nose bullets in a tubular magazine were so dangerous, how did the Model 94 get so popular? They have been made for more than a century, most popularly in 30-30. Compare the business end of a factory 30-30 round to a round nose 44 cast boolit. Personally, I've never known of a 94 detonating a magazine.

I will make one admission. Rifle primers are a bit harder to set off than pistol primers. Or at least they're supposed to be. Some people disagree, I'm blindly accepting they are. With that thought in mind, would it be better to load the 44 with rifle primers? I say NO!! Rifle primers are deeper than pistol primers, so they they may not set deep enough in your brass and actually increase the chance of getting set off in the magazine. For safety, do it by the book.

[muskeg13]

If round nose bullets in a tubular magazine were so dangerous, how did the Model 94 get so popular? They have been made for more than a century, most popularly in 30-30. Compare the business end of a factory 30-30 round to a round nose 44 cast boolit. Personally, I've never known of a 94 detonating a magazine.

I will make one admission. Rifle primers are a bit harder to set off than pistol primers. Or at least they're supposed to be. Some people disagree, I'm blindly accepting they are. With that thought in mind, would it be better to load the 44 with rifle primers? I say NO!! Rifle primers are deeper than pistol primers, so they they may not set deep enough in your brass and actually increase the chance of getting set off in the magazine. For safety, do it by the book.
The .30-30 not only uses LG rifle primers, but is a rimmed bottleneck case with pronounced taper and a prominent rim. Bullet noses rest on the bottom of the magazine tube and bottom of ctg rim ahead, well below the primer, like with an 8mm Lebel. Straight walled cases with small rims are more likely to cause a problem when noses align with primers.

[trapper9260]

The .30-30 not only uses LG rifle primers, but is a rimmed bottleneck case with pronounced taper and a prominent rim. Bullet noses rest on the bottom of the magazine tube and bottom of ctg rim ahead, well below the primer, like with an 8mm Lebel. Straight walled cases with small rims are more likely to cause a problem when noses align with primers.

This what I was thinking also. I still will stick with FN in tube because I shoot both bottle neck and straight walls . It works for me for how I feel about it and also seen others that wrote about their mag tube blow up like was shown on here .

[murf205]

Very interesting thread for sure. I would appear to me that Remington had a pretty good idea that this could happen when they made the Model 14 and141 rifles with the spiral magazine tubes to keep the noses of the ammo away from the primer of the forward one. It could have been done with lever guns just as easily but evidently Marlin and Winchester didn't deem it necessary. But the rounds these guns were designed were nowhere near the recoil of a 450 Alaskan. Business really picks up on both ends when you start chunking 400 gr boolits at 2400 fps.

[murf205]

This what I was thinking also. I still will stick with FN in tube because I shoot both bottle neck and straight walls . It works for me for how I feel about it and also seen others that wrote about their mag tube blow up like was shown on here .

Evidently Tom feels the same way because in the Accurate catalogue online, he has a note under the 43-240A design the says it is for his lever gun. How does it feed through the action Tom?

[farmbif]

I'm no expert but I the only currently produced 117 grain bullets I've ever seen for the 25-35 are round nose.
I'm curious now exactly what caused that detonation in the puma. is it possible a piece of debris stuck to top or bottom of a cartridge? what brand and type of primers

[MT Gianni]

I witnessed one in a shop that had 2 rounds detonate in the tube. There were three in there that did not detonate though the rounds went off on their primer side. The gunsmith determined it was a case of high primers.

[muskeg13]

I'm no expert but I the only currently produced 117 grain bullets I've ever seen for the 25-35 are round nose.
I'm curious now exactly what caused that detonation in the puma. is it possible a piece of debris stuck to top or bottom of a cartridge? what brand and type of primers

RNs in the .25-35 won't give you problems due to the shape of the case and orientation of the bullet noses in the magazine (where they're always down, away from the primers). In this regard, the .25-35 is even a little safer than a .30-30, which doesn't have a history of magazine tube detonations. The ammo in the Puma was clean, using soft alloy commercial cast bullets marked "suitable for BP", with a relatively hard purple lube. The cases were brand new (unfired) WW and like was stated before, the primers were Federal 150s, which have a reputation for being rather sensitive.

The .44 mag loads used were moderate, 10.5 gr Unique with 200 gr cast. Recoil wasn't excessive, but the Puma is a light carbine. I think the bullets deformed in cartridges subjected to multiple recoil impulses when I started topping off the mag after firing multiple 3-shot strings without expending all of the cartridges in the magazine. The six cartridges that exploded had been in the magazine the whole time I'd been firing, maybe as many as 18-20 shots. If the soft alloy in the FN bullets began to be battered and form themselves into the primer recess of the cartridges ahead, eventually a sensitive primer went off. Look at the imprint the primers made on the bullet noses in the photo. 311238

[fredj338]

There are rn & there are rn. I think you would be fine with a broad rn, but fp are safer.

[muskeg13]

I witnessed one in a shop that had 2 rounds detonate in the tube. There were three in there that did not detonate though the rounds went off on their primer side. The gunsmith determined it was a case of high primers.

What rifle and caliber was involved? Factory or reloaded ammo? The reason I ask is because the "explosion" is caused by a build up of unwanted gas in the mag tube. Each incident has different variables. A gunsmith "determining" it was a high primer unfortunately is just educated guesswork.

I initially also thought my explosion was caused by a high primer, but after correspondence with R.W. Ballou, whom some of you may remember did a series of tests and wrote articles on his results, I came to a different conclusion. Mr. Ballou pointed out in a more eloquent way, that sometimes in a case of unfortunate tolerance stack-up, **** just happens. Ballou pointed out in my case: Very sensitive Fed 150 pistol primers, straight walled .44 Mag cases where even though flat nosed, the noses cover the primer pockets of rounds ahead and being fat cases for the interior diameter of the mag tube, take up much of the available "open" space, leaving nowhere for the gas to go if there's an inadvertent detonation, and finally, he attributed position insensitive Unique to be a contributing factor. Everything that could go wrong, went wrong.

In other rifles, firing other calibers there may be more room for gas to dissipate. Rifle primers, or another brand of pistol primers are less sensitive. A less position sensitive powder, especially a slower burning rifle powder, might not burn or at least less powder might be consumed, creating less gas that has to go somewhere.

[racepres]

Don't forget absolute Recoil Impulse.. 10.5 gr Unique is Stout... even with 200 gr projectiles!!! Not "hot" but Not Powder Puff either..
surprised "soft" boolits did not lead

[45_Colt]

LRP can be used in the 44 Mag by simply deepening the primer pocket. A LRP pocket is required to be 0.008" deeper then a LPP.

K&M makes a good primer pocket uniforming tool that makes quick work of this.

Then back off any current loads a bit and work it up (if required).

45_Colt