Maybe somone can help

[Wolfdog91]

So wanted to see if maybe someone could help me with my explanation of something. I'm not the best at getting things across, seems I either over explain trying to be detailed and end up over complicating or I don't explain enough because I don't want people to think I'm talking down to them. That or I guess my questions are so weird and not normal it throws folks off .Either way people usually misunderstand what I'm asking or trying to say

So anyhow I asked over on Accurate

"So hope this doesn't come off as a stupid question but was wondering something.
For you guys shooting benchrest ,f class or similar, if yall had to pick a "common" or " off the shelf" caliber for competition ( or just whatever in that level of precision I guess ), what would y'all pick and why? Now when I say common I mean stuff like .223 .243 ,.308 , 6.5 creed .308 ,7mm-08 stuff you can walk into Walmart or most gunshops and see on the shelf. Feeding it Handloads of course but again talking about stuff that if you mentioned them to the average guy they would know what your talking about ( like not many average joes have heard about something like a 6PPC or 284 Shehane lol :D )
Seems .243 or .7mm-08 would be good from every thing I'm seeing and learning ( preferred bullet weights , diameter and the like) but I've never shot at the level many of you do on the daily ( can't afford it right now anyway lol) so idk.
Anyhow ,just curious on what everyone thinks"

But I've seemed to really confuse alot of folks. I mean don't get me wrong a lot of people are trying to be help ( seriously there one of the nicest forums I've been on most of these guys are waaaayyy beyond me when it comes to precision shooting but most are happy to take time and try and answer my questions in honestly a super respectful and kind manner) and give me advice on how I need to hand load and how I won't be able to compete with Walmart ammo or make a cheap rifle shoot....but that's not really what im asking .

I'm trying to ask " hay if you where stuck with common run of the mill calibers what would you personally pick and why ?" But man I can't for the life of me convey what I'm trying to say properly . Idk if it's a disconnect of me just not having the ability to explain myself well with proper vocabulary and terminology or maybe it's one of those deals where you just have such a skill level gap that ( me on the low side them on the high side of course) that what makes sense to me is just not even in the ball park of thought for them . I guess I'm coming across as some kid trying to find some magic $1000 set up that cheap and will let me shoot Walmart ammo and be able to compete against seasoned reloaders and shooters with high class custom rigs
Idk , anyone possibly have a better way to word my question so it makes more sense ?
Thanks

[Armorer77]

USMC used a Rem 700 heavy barrel , the M40 in 308 for many years , I don't know what they are using now . 1000 yd shots were common and expected . Ed

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Agree. For everyday types it's hard to beat the .308.

DG

[fayettefatts]

My experience has been that there are a lot of good accurate cartridges out there. The three things that make a cartridge great are barrels, bullets and brass.

[deces]

I try to stick with milsurp calibers because of their commonality.

[Handloader109]

I laser engrave stuff as a small business. I've a long range competition shooter who builds custom guns as a side business. I've lasered his logo and calibers on about a half dozen barrels in past year. I've done 3 or 4 308 barrels, a couple 6.5 Creedmoor, and just did a 284 shehane for him. I do know one of each of these is his guns. Seems 308 is most popular as it has been over half of the guns he's made.
Oh and these barrels atart as 1 1/2 steel rods and he doesn't take much off. Heavy guns

[HWooldridge]

I have a very accurate 7mm-08 but if I had to choose only one, I'd stick with .308 in some brand of bolt action. As mentioned, the Rem 700 with heavy barrel is hard to beat.

[ascast]

308 bolt gun - cheap brass, every shop on the planet has one or two boxes of bullets of some kind,-volumes of established proven data. A good friend of mine claims that 30-06 is most overrated inaccurate cartridges out there. He shoots a lot from bench at 90 yds, 5 shot groups. He NEVER shoots IMR-4895 because it is chunky in the thrower. He uses Win 761 I think. It meters so nicely. Don't be afraid to do what 10,000'2 other shooters have already proven.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Okay, I understood what you're asking as to caliber and the answer is funner and simpler than you think, (it's also interactive).

Here's the game, look at cartridges, (a loading manual of your choice is helpful as well as your knowing your area sources of ammunition) from .22-.30 discounting of course .23 and .29. Take one caliber at a time and sort them out as to availability, useful range, and purpose. Once you have what you think are the winners of each diameter you can run them off for your number one-two-three etc. pick. (I'll do my pics below)

.22-.223/5.56NATO

.24-.243 Winchester

.25-.25/06

.26-(this is a tough one for me) .260 Remington

.27-.270 Winchester

.28-7mm/08 Remington

.30-.308/7.62 NATO

Based on cartridge performance, I would pick the 7mm/08. Based on availability and cost, the .223/5/56mm NATO would be the clear winner. Consider availability, cost, accuracy, range, and utility and I come up with the .308/7.62 NATO as the over-all winner, with the 7mm/08 running a tight second, (based strictly on performance, the 7mm/08 wins).

Some of my pics were based on parent cartridge availabillity like the .243-.260-7mm/08, all off-spring of the .308, (of 7 listed calibers, 4 are based on the .308 case). All are easily reloaded with obtainable components, and just one powder of your choosing can load any and all, my three top pics of powder would be, Varget-IMR4064-IMR4895.

[Minerat]

Simplified question. What off the shelf caliber would you suggest for F class or similar and why do you recommend it?

Might get you the answer you are looking for.

[rockrat]

I would add in the 260AI and the 6.5Creedmoor. Maybe you should have asked the question along the lines of what calibers where you could go to WM or such and find ammo you might want to practice trigger control or wind doping, instead of your competition ammo. Or make ammo using less than match quality components.
In deciding on what caliber, look also at what is available in competition components. Great 22,24, 6.5mm, and 30 cal components with 7mm behind those 4, but catching up. Also what match quality brass is available.
I saw your post on Accurate. Those guys are levels above me, but I have learned a lot from them and where I used to be glad to shoot under 1" groups, that has changed. They have cost me $$, but so has this site!!:)

[contender1]

Funny, I understood your question immediately. Your question was not about the ammo itself,, it was a caliber specific question. You want to be able to buy ammo in many "normal" places,, so an off the shelf, popular caliber is preferred.

That said,, while several very accurate calibers are out there,, you have to ask yourself the question; "What purposes OTHER than "F Class" might I use the gun for?

Decades ago, the .222 Rem was THE caliber of choice. Then it was replaced by others. If you desire paper punching & possibly smaller animal use,, then the .223/5.56 would be a good choice.
And while the 7mm-08 is a VERY good caliber,, not as many stores carry ammo for it.
But for an overall competition AND general use caliber,,, I'd look very closely at the .308 Win. Better at longer ranges than the .223 due to a heavier bullet. Can be down loaded for smaller critters & has proven itself to be a solid medium & big game caliber. And as noted above,, it's got a proven track record in competition as well.

[Rich/WIS]

My only experience with the type of shooting you are going for was with a mid 60's Rem 700 ADL in 6mm Rem. At that time Remington had a loading IIRC they called "Power-Lokt" and it would reliably group into an inch or less sat 100 yards. The rifle is long gone and don't think Remington still makes that ammo. Other rifle is a M70 FWT in 243 Win, will also group into a MOA for the first 3 shots but as the light barrel gets hot groups open up. This is not a recommendation for rifles/calibers but it does demonstrate that what you are looking for is do-able.

I'll second the suggestion for a Rem 700 with a heavy barrel, pick a caliber that you like, and plan to reload with quality bullets and weighed charges. An adjustable match grade trigger and a high magnification scope are a must as well. Have fun and good luck in your quest.

[farmbif]

dont know a whole lot about competitive shooting. but the bergara in 6.5 creedmoor that its the same price as a new savage classic right out of the box is more accurate than I am. and supposedly Remington 700 modifications will also fit the bergara if you ever choose to make modifications.

[lightman]

I didn't feel that your question was too complicated.

For F class, a 308, 243 or one of the Creedmoors. Off the shelf Creedmoor ammo would be the harder one to find. Because there are lots of good bullet choices in those calibers. For what its worth I shot a 308 when I competed in F class.
Benchrest is a whole different animal. In short range benchrest the 6mm PPC pretty much dominates the sport and you won't be competitive with any off the shelf caliber. I doubt you will ever see any PPC ammo on dealers shelves. Most is made from Lapua 220 Russian brass. In long range benchrest the same off the shelf calibers used in F class would be my pick. But most of the winners are using something that you won't find on the shelf. Again, for what its worth, I used a 6.5-285 when I competed.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Your question was just fine...I'd say it's more likely the audience's problem, not because they misunderstood you, it's more they are jumping to the next question before it's asked.

I'd offer a simple anecdote before the question is asked. Like perhaps when I started Rifle League using a stock Ruger 10/22 off the shelf of the local hardware store. That first event I went to was quite a lesson to be learned when all the other benches had equipment on them that'd cost 3 months wages. Well, I won't continue with my anecdote, you'll have your own to work up.

OK, with that out of the way, I am partial to the 243. There sure are a lot of guns out there in that caliber, both new and old. Years ago at a gunshow, I swapped for a 243 Benchrest rifle made off a Mauser action. I never got it to shoot well with cast, but it was a bell ringer with jacketed bullets. I suspect that $400 gun could have done ok in a competition.

[jdgabbard]

Yeah, like JonB said, I think this is an audience-problem. Not a question-problem. People in certain circles tend to get blinded by opinions strongly held by the camp. Happens here to a certain degree as well. I sometimes ask a question and get recommendations that have nothing to do with the question I ask about. Or, for an example, you post an WTB add in the S&S sub-forum and get a response to go to such and such website...which defeats the purpose of the S&S forum in my opinion...

That said, as to caliber selection, that's a tough one. And I think that it also depends somewhat on your geographical location. At least in my hometown you were more likely to find 30-06 over 308 in the past. But as far as a universally available caliber, probably be 308 today, or possibly a 270. But that may be vastly different where you live. I don't, nor have I ever shot benchrest matches. So I don't understand the fuss. But I've found most modern calibers can be very accurate if fed the right ammo. And would even go so far to say that most modern rifles will outshoot most rifles from 50 years ago. I personally had a Mossberg ATR 100 in 30-06 that I was amazed would shoot 1" groups right out of the box. Not bad for a $200 (at the time) rifle. Anecdotally, I've "always heard" that 7mm calibers were the most accurate. I'm not sure I believe that seeing the Black Powder guys shooting those rams at ridiculous distances. So if it were me, I'd just find a caliber in a rifle that I felt as though I could shoot well with. And then let the sport and my experience I gained let me decide which direction I took it from there.

[blackthorn]

Your post (#1) clearly asked for help identifying what you were doing wrong with phrasing a question : "I'm trying to ask " hay if you where stuck with common run of the mill calibers what would you personally pick and why ?" ---The next 8 posts addressed the knowledge sought, going direct to the that end, as pointed out in post #16. Seems to me you answered your own (original) specific question. Just saying---

[MUSTANG]

Given your Question and my Bias:

1. .308 would be my choice. Next would be a 300 WinMag. I would not land on the 30-06 because it is an incremental between the .308W and the 300 WinMag. A premium bullet is required for any choice.

2. Many of the F Class shooters will "Chase Technology & Trend". Whom-Ever is winning matches, with whatever cartridge, will influence the almost won and below groups to switch calibers and cartridge case type.

3. Where is money best spent on competing (maybe not being competitive)? Firstly, a premium bullet. Secondly, an above average scale for weighing every charge. Thirdly, the tools necessary for "Match" preparing and measuring brass, bullets, seating, ad-nauseum etc. minor tweaks to consistency round to round. Lastly; expend the money with the best and most desired Gunsmith you can afford to build the rifle. My Barber spent $5,0000 on a 300 Norma Magnum and I taught him to reload. Depending on his application of First through Third principles in this paragraph; he can equal or dramatically reduce group sized compared to factory rounds.

4. Gift and Capabilities of the shooter. We can all work to increase our skills; but there may always be a better shooter than ourselves. Truth in Shooting - There are many who can shoot better than ourselves in written or verbal form; but they seem to have a bad day at the range if one is there with them. Actual paper with holes made on the range means the most. Develop the skills to shoot at long distance, some requirements to dos so: Dramatically increase your personal fitness (general statement is that a better fit person can control the Rifle and themselves while shooting compared to someone less fit), ensure your have good visual acuity - get glasses if needed, practice/practice/practice (dry & live firing) then practice more. Get a "Coach" to assist you; they should be able to see things you are doing wrong that you can not. Lastly - have fun.

[popper]

Probably 7/08. Good BC bullets. 243 barrels don't last long. IIRC Hornady has ELD 308 bullets. Either will do the hunting job too.

[Snakeoil]

I think if you just asked what is the best standard caliber for all around shooting (precision target, plinking, cast bullet shooting and hunting), you probably would have gotten more answers than questions. But then again, if my question does not reflect what you wanted to ask, then maybe not.

I vote for the .308 since it fulfills pretty much every category I have listed above. Brass is readily available. So are many choices of jacketed bullets and cast bullet designs. There is no shortage of loading data. You can buy a decent rifle like a Savage for a relatively small entry cost and still have a very accurate rifle. The .308 will also give you very good barrel life should you choose to go down the F-class path. When you move to the hotter calibers, you pay the price in barrel life. And that will include the .243.

The only downside to the .308 is recoil with HV loads like one would shoot in F-class. But if you have no issues with recoil or issues that recoil could irritate, then it's probably not going to be an problem for you.

Just so we are clear, there is really no single rifle that fits all applications. So, your intended purpose will more than likely influence the answers you get. If you are not sure what you want to do with the rifle, you might want to first spend some time at a club and see what might pique your interest and then shot for a rifle based upon that. I'll give you an example so you get what I mean.

I was a serious BPCR silhouette shooter. But the luster of BP and shooting high recoil prone began to wear off. I've since moved to shooting vintage rifles in smaller calibers, like .30-06 with reduced cast bullet loads. The club I belong to has slackened the rules for silhouette matches and most have moved to military rifles or old single shots using cast bullets. Pretty much any rifle that can shoot a cast bullet is welcome at our matches. Well, I got the itch to shoot F-class. My shooting partner is a serious F-class shooter. I expressed an interest and he told me not to spend any money. Gave me the pick of any of his F-class rifles and scopes. I ended up with a 6BR based on a 700 action with a Nightforce scope. Shot all the F-class matches that summer from 800 to 1000 yds. Turns out the 6BR was not up to the task of bucking the wind beyond 800 yds. I did shoot a 149 10X at 800 in my first match, but went to Hell at 900 and 1000. But still, I did very well in the first relay so stuggling to shoot well was not a factor in whether I enjoyed the sport or not. When the season was over, it had been a great experience. But F-class just did not do it for me. I gave him back all his gear, thanked him and will be buying him lunch forever to repay him (he gave me powder, brass, bullets and let me use is Auto-trickler to load) for his generosity. If I had sprung for a custom match rifle and all the fixings to shoot it in F-class, I would have been stuck with a new gun that I really did not need. My point here is to reinforce what I said about hanging around a club, seeing what shooting sports might light your fire and then maybe see if someone will not let you give it a try with their rifle. Then, you can start shopping for the right rifle for that particular application.

Good luck. The real answer to your question is "It depends." :bigsmyl2:

[ulav8r]

I know nothing about F class or other competition but I do know that accuracy requires good barrels and bullets. Also, the cartridge has less affect on accuracy but within reason case size does seem to affect accuracy. Smaller cases seem to be better, as in 30 calibers 308 Win has a better reputation for accuracy than the magnums. The benchrest craze mainly started with the 222 Rem and the current popular 22 calibers are not significantly larger. An advantage the smaller cartridges have is that they do not cause as much fatigue during a match.

As a guide to cartridge selection: 1. Select a caliber that has excellent bullets and barrels available.
2. Select an action that good rigidity, a good trigger, and a short lock time.
3. Use the smallest cartridge that suits the game being played. If the range is 200 yards or less a .22 caliber should be
chosen over a .30 Magnum. If 1000 yard shots are on the agenda use a cartridge that pushes a heavier bullet that has
minimul wind drift.

In an attempt to answer your original question, Think about what you really want and then try to frame your question to ask specifically that. Don't ask what caliber if you want to know which cartridge. Your reloading technique should be the same regardless of cartridge, so mention of reloading should be avoided if at all possible.

[dverna]

Wolf,
I had no problem understanding your question.

I will confess when you first started here I had issues with how you write but you have “grown” on me....and I dare say a bunch of others. Just keep on keeping on....

You are not a well educated man and my dad was the same. Never let that hold you back. You have common sense and work things out. My dad wrote very poorly but he could do almost anything except work on cars.

[BLAHUT]

I do not shoot f-class, I have watched many matches and know many that do compete in F-class, from what I can learn from them, this is a machinist game. To answer your question, to go to walmart and buy off the shelf ammo, you will not be able to be a competitor with these people, other than to go and learn and have fun. These people that I know are shooting .22 LR, 6mm, 300 mag, then throw in a bunch of other calibers. All match ammo. Off the shelf ammo will give you something to practice with, form, trigger control, wind reading and such, reloading will teach the need to pick components and roll very accurate ammo for your individual gun/guns. You will need to keep Meticulous Reckords. The search for accurate .22LR ammo in your gun is frustrating to say the least, maybe it, the most expensive match ammo out there or the cheapest off the shelf that there is, only your gun/guns will tell you that, after extensive testing?? Then you need to purchase as much of that lot that you can, before needing to start the search again. With centerfire ammo you can pick and choose components, to be supper accurate in your gun/guns. Supper accurate guns, is/are, addicting, frustrating and yet so satisfying. The quest for a Super accurate gun is expense, both in time and money, yet so very rewarding, but you will learn a lot, by God you will learn, in order to be a top competitor ?

[Winger Ed.]

I'd lean towards the .308.
For me, the .308, and .30cal. in general just seems like it wants to be accurate.
brass & powder are easy to get ahold of and the variety of bullet selections is something to behold.

Also:
Even out to the 1,000 yd. targets-
it'll put a good, clean kill on those little black dots so the Target Cong won't have any wounded to drag off.

[Wayne Smith]

I think part of the problem is the audience. Think of it this way, would you ask a bunch of competitive professional motorcycle drivers about the best street bike for competition? The best answer is - there isn't one! These guys change barrels the way we change bathroom soaps. They shoot so much that it is necessary. Unless you are going to use your rifle that much the question is essentially moot.

[SSGOldfart]

Simplified question. What off the shelf caliber would you suggest for F class or similar and why do you recommend it?

Might get you the answer you are looking for.

Yes Sir the 308 or 7.62 NATO gets my vote as for a rifle the M1 Grand chambered for the 308 is proven winner ,the more you shoot it the better it gets

[MT Gianni]

F Class 308, most other target regimens 223. This should be required reading for any target shooter. I try to reread it at least that often though my eyes, pulse and home situation don't put me in a competitive shooting environment.
https://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html

[Harter66]

There are 3 ways to ask/answer a question.

How do you cast bullets?
1 you get the lead hot enough to be liquid, pour it in a form , let it cool , slap some waxy stuff on it , and load it up . If it fits it ships.

2 You need to have a pot you can control temperature in with either a bottom pour or ladle type means to fill a suitable mould . 1 must select an appropriate alloy although generic WW will do for most use . Sizing has to be done to ensure proper dia . A lube must be applied to each bullet and there are many types choose one that best suits your application.

The 3rd guy takes in every minutea detail and speaks to depths of each step in and 18 paragraph response that just leaves one with a head full of cotton like you just read 6 tech manuals .

The biggest issue the guy asking has on a particular dedicated forum or page is that there is an assumed level of knowledge. I often fell victim to this early on here .
"I've done the steps . I'm here and this is what it's doing. It doesn't make any sense."
6-7 responses later I'm like I've got a .314 bullet in an 06' and there's lube dripping off the muzzle . The 4" in front of the chamber are spotless and the last 4" at the muzzle are all clear too is the 8" in-between. I've gone from flashing to Lino . The throat is only.310 and the muzzle is .300×.306 .......

Fortunately after the "read the stickies" guy and the guys that only read half the question and said "sizing" or "lube" a gentleman took pity on me and walked me through an extended slugging deal where I learned about ...... revisited metal weirdness with applied forces and that the dovetail for a rear sight had over a lifetime before me of heavy bullets had stretched the bore and left a hump .

Assumed knowledge and experience killed me there , eventually the problem was resolved , and shooting bliss followed .

I don't shoot that class either but I'd start with a 222 if I wanted to get into it .
I've found that the fast twists everyone is hung up on at the moment are too much of a good thing. I'd take 1-12 in a 223 every day over the 1-8" that everything is fitted with . The 1-10" is great in the 30s but they seem to think that the Soviet 1-8.5-9" was better .....under 180 gr a 1-12" is just the bees knees .
I'd take a 1-10" in a 6.5 or 7mm but nobody wants that because the Germans and Swedes said 8.5 was the answer in 1895 ....... Whatever.

Presuming that your question was presented as depicted you probably left most of the high level guys thinking you had made a decision and wanted affirmation. At the same time the intermediate guys felt like it was over their head . The money guy just said you can't afford to play these games .

[Winger Ed.]

The 3rd guy takes in every minutea detail and speaks to depths of each step in and 18 paragraph response

I see that a lot here. There are people here like a guy I grew up with that are so smart I worry about them.
I'm afraid sometime they'll be thinking about electrons, chemical variances, the possibility of faster than light travel,
cold fusion or something like that, and step off a curb in front of a bus.

[wv109323]

I think the answer relies upon the quality of jacketed match bullets available. The bullet manufacturers center their match bullets in mostly .30 caliber, 6.5, and 6 mm and heavy for caliber weights.
The bees knees for long range shooting is supposed to be around a 6-6.5 mm bullet. The 6- 6.5 has less wind drift due to its higher velocity and less time in flight.( retained velocity).
So ideal calibers would include .308 Winchester, .300 Win Mag., 6.5 Credmore, 6.5X .284, 6.5X55 Swedish, 6mm Credmore and 6MM Remington Honorable mention is the .223. So you pick your poison on recoil, barrel life and your wallet.

[BrassMagnet]

Wolfdog,

I'm going to throw my hat in the ring here with what I believe the answer is. Please don't be offended!

First, I will throw in some general statements I hear a lot in my competition circles.
If you are doing things differently than the top shooters and you are beating them, then you are innovative. If you are not beating them, then you are being stupid.
Perfect practice is great. Just practicing differently than shooting the match is merely a waste of time and scarce resources.

Now for some standards! Difference types of matches are shot at different ranges and at targets with different size scoring rings. You have to get your answers from people that are shooting the type of match you want to shoot!

I shoot High power (Reduced, Across the Course, and Long Range) and 3 Pistol Bullseye, and Indoor pistol. Action Steel, too! I have played in a trap league. I have shot Scheutzen once and International once. I want to shoot BPCR and the Friends of Billy Dixon. I am a Distinguished Pistol Shot and I have won an As Issued Garand EIC match. I am an Across the Course High Power Master.

F-Class targets are tiny compared to High Power targets. A great rifle for High Power will be a loser at F-Class and if it is a 223 will likely be so humiliating it will stop you from ever competing there again!

Bench rest shooters are concerned about getting the smallest thousandth of an inch group they can. They use small calibers at closer ranges than Highpower or F-Class. So if you ask one shooter from each discipline what caliber you will get three different answers.

Harter66 also mentioned the person with the overly in-depth answer which I prefer to call as the "you must have a Master's degree in Commercial Loading before you are allowed to have any fun" guy. I know they mean well and they want to answer what they believe is the most important answer ever very thoroughly. However, I have seen them drive new CastBoolit members away from this forum with their over complicated answers.

Snakeoil had a wonderful experience trying out F-Class with lots of help from a friend. What a great way to introduce someone to the hobby.

By the way, I really like CMP competitions. You can shoot High Power style matches where everyone shoots a similar issued military rifle. No super fancy rifles that cost more than your car! Some of these people move on to actual High Power and some stay with CMP Matches.

3 Pistol Bullseye Matches are dying because you might need to spend $3,000 to $5,000, or more, just to try out a sport you might not enjoy. Does that sound like a good way to go?

223, 308, and 30-06 are good calibers for High Power. Other calibers are also used, but some have lost interest due to extremely short barrel life while others are growing in popularity. 243 is dying and 6.5 Creedmoor is growing.

Good luck! Go forth and have fun!

Maybe a good question might go something like this: So what caliber would you recommend I start with if I want to try out F-Class competition? They might say 308 or 6.5 Creedmoor. Then you could say why 6.5 Creedmoor and what model rifle would you choose?
They might instead say: I don't know. I don't shoot F-Class, I only shoot High Power. So you could then ask the same questions but substitute High Power for F-Class.