Real, genuine, unadulterated stupidity...!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

About 2 weeks ago I purchased what I consider to be about a 95% condition Llama 9mm/38 Model VII on Gunbroker.com as an addition to my collection. The pistol was probably manufactured around 1950, but perhaps as early as 1944.

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Click to enlarge.

The seller, an FFL Dealer with a storefront operation in Texas, stated in the descriptive information that models made in 9mm/38 were for a different cartridge than .38 Super Auto, although some owners use the .38 Super. He then made the comment, "I guess we're going to find out if it's safe or not." At the time (pre-purchase) I assumed that he thought the new owner might try it. Odd, I thought, that he did not say, "Do not do it!"

Well, yesterday I decided to field strip the pistol and give it a good cleaning and inspection. I noted that the barrel was reluctant to unlock from the slide, and it took several jerks to get it off the front of the frame. Next, I removed the barrel and link from the slide, and the link fell out onto my desk in two pieces. Long past the time in which a return might be accepted.

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I'm sure that I'll be able to repair it using a link for a 1911, as the size is very similar. Any radius difference can probably be solved using a Dremel and rotary stone, and the thickness can be adjusted with a flat needle file. Unfortunately, Llama is now about 20 years out of business.

You can draw your own conclusions, but I have to think that the Dealer did, in fact, "try it out", and that one or two shots was enough to break the link. Over the years there have been several threads on this Forum discussing whether or not .38 Super should be fired in Spanish-made guns (Astra, Star, Llama), and there have always been those who said that they do it successfully. The .38 referred to in the caliber marking on the slides of these pistols is .38 ACP, the forerunner and weaker version of the .38 Super, and the 9mm is 9mm Largo, approximately the equivalent of the .38 ACP and the preferred round. The link can be replaced, but not a cracked frame. This is written in the interest of preserving firearms from damage and you from injury.


DG

[stubshaft]

I've bought more than a few guns from GB, and have had only 1 bad experience with a misrepresented shotgun.

[Snakeoil]

Shame on you for not stripping it immediately upon arrival. That said, the area where the link broke looks pretty thin to me. No personal experience with Llama handguns other than drooling over the .22 version when I was a kid.

Since the .38 ACP and Super have the same external case dimensions, I'd just load ACP loads in Super cases and enjoy the pistol. I think the real risk of shooting a Super round in an ACP barrel is more than a broken link or a cracked frame. I saw a guy blow the mag out of a .38 Super 1911 due to shoddy reloading practices (a little more powder is better, right??). Only thing that saved his hand was the metal liner in the Pachmayr grips. Never saw him at the club again after that day. Nobody missed him. We all knew it was just a matter of time.

[dverna]

I would still contact the seller and see what they think is fair.

It sucks but at least you did not get hurt.

[elmacgyver0]

I bought a "Gunsmith Special" 9mm Llama a while back, I think it was from J&G sales if my memory is correct.
It was without a magazine.
I was kind of surprised as it was blow back, no locking lugs.
The spring for the loaded cartridge indicator was in sideways, best way I can describe it.
Easy fix.
Magazines, they are made of unobtainium. If you can find them, very expensive.
I bought a set of four stainless steel 9mm 1911 mags from some outfit I can't remember the name, something like "Magazine Guy".
They fit very loosely front to back in the well.
The gun jammed up something terrible, about every shot.
I cut a strip of "Alien Tape" the width of the magazine well and a piece of aluminum flashing the same width the length of the magazine well.
I used the "Alien Tape" to fasten the flashing to the rear of the magazine well.
The result? The Gun functions perfectly!
I paid $250 for the "gunsmith special" and $87 for the set of 4 stainless magazines.
Not too shabby of a price for a 9mm 1911 in my humble opinion.
It is a lot of fun to shoot.

[elmacgyver0]

If you can get this stuff for a price you like and you are good at fixing things, you can come out all right.
I think I did alright on mine, some of you may think I got ripped off.
As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I jumped on the Llama because I already had a mini 1911 in .22 LR, mini 1911 in .32 acp and a mini 1911 in .380 acp.
How could I not get the 9mm 1911.
The funny thing is the mini 1911 in .380 acp has locking lugs.
The 9mm since it is a full sized 1911 has enough slide weight as not to need them.

[elmacgyver0]

One other thing.
Everybody and their dog are producing Mini 1911s.
Llama did it many years ago before anybody even thought about it.
Go figure.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thanks, all, for the interesting comments. I've acquired Spanish handguns for years (the big 3...not just any) and have found them to be excellent pistols within their class. A Llama is not a Colt, but I'd say is about 90% of one. They certainly are not junk, as some have said, putting them under the blanket of "cheap Spanish handguns" made early in the last century by the less well known makers. I do reload 9mm Largo, and have a nice supply of Starline brass which I got when the gettin' was good. If I didn't, downloading the .38 Super would be the way to go. I do have one Llama dating from about 1967 or '68 chambered specifically for the Super cartridge.

Near the end of WW II Llama decided to revamp their product line, and the 1911 seemed to be the wave of the future. Star had already started making 1911-based pistols and was doing quite well. I've enjoyed seeing how the Iberian pride insisted on producing an initial model that looked very much like a 1911 but internally had different sear/hammer/safety mechanisms, no grip safety and a different arrangement for the slide stop and thumb safety tension. As the years went by they modified all of these differences to imitate the Colt, and their last 1911-type pistols, the Max-1 (etc.) series had progressed to using mostly interchangeable parts. All a testimony to the greatness of the 1911 design by a competitor. Collecting and examining (and shooting) the progression of Llama models has been a good experience.

DG

[Texas by God]

Aw man, dang it. That sorry seller.
I know that you’ll get it going. I have never owned a Llama but I’ve shot the .380 version and the .45 version that had a rib on top and a loaded indicator that imposed on the sight picture a bit. They worked fine and shot well.
I have had several Astra and Star pistols- and they are excellent.


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[HumptyDumpty]

I was happy to clear a gun shop's shelf of some 9mm Largo a couple of years back (perhaps three or four boxes, at a blowout price), but the owner didn't understand why I wasn't interested in the other couple boxes from Winchester. It was also 9x23, after all:o

[MrWolf]

I would still contact the seller and see what they think is fair.

It sucks but at least you did not get hurt.

Based on my experience, Gunbroker will back the seller and will probably be a waste of time. DG will fix her with a whole lot less hassle.

[Bigslug]

Not long ago, Bloke on the Range did a video challenging the premise that the Lee Enfield is a "weak" action, by threading a .300 Win Mag barrel onto a No. 4 receiver and ultimately progressing to the point of lubing the brass to increase bolt thrust. At the point of eventual failure, it was discovered that the rifle had a pre-existing crack in one of the bolt lugs that had been there for decades through at least one arsenal refinishing job and untold numbers of .303 and .308 - and it took that deliberately gross over-stress to even call attention to the fact that there was a problem.

In your case, you have an old gun, with some markings that can be REALLY confusing to anybody not deeply immersed in cartridge history and nomenclature. It has had 70 years in which anyone could have tried and figured out that 9x19 Luger, 9x17/.380, .38 Special, .38 S&W, .38 Colt and possibly others won't work. To make matters worse, the gun is effectively rated for .303 British (.38 ACP), but it CAN chamber and fire a .300 Win Mag equivalent loading (.38 Super) without alteration. AND it looks a lot like the Colt 1911 that can shoot Supers just fine. How many folks in the last seven decades would have assumed .38 Super is what it shoots and run that extensively while not even being aware of the existence of a thing called .38 ACP? Don't bother responding - the correct answer is "A LOT".

Short version, there's a lot of historical potential for a crack to start in that link, and nobody can say for sure when it started or what ultimately killed it. Little use in trying to assign blame. It's just a good example of why you want a detailed forest service trail map when you go off the paved interstate of guns chambering current/common cartridges.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I was happy to clear a gun shop's shelf of some 9mm Largo a couple of years back (perhaps three or four boxes, at a blowout price), but the owner didn't understand why I wasn't interested in the other couple boxes from Winchester. It was also 9x23, after all:o

Good for you, Humpty. Another tragedy waiting to happen. Ignorance abounds.

DG

[blackhawk44]

Having been a partner in a small shop in the '60's and '70's, Llamas were considered inconsistent and unreliable. Astras and Stars, however, were solid reliable performers, some were even relabeled and sold by Colt.

[Scorpion8]

Another big fan of Spanish semi-auto pistols, as I own many. Yes, parts are getting scarce or non-existent, but they were great pistols when made and can often be kept working and useful a lot longer. I doubt many plastic semi-autos will last this long. And the Spanish makers failings was financial, not craftmanship.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Years ago I bought a Llama in .380. It was one of the small look-a-like pistols. Any resemblance between it and the 1911 ended there. I bought the pistol for $75. It was cheap because it would not stay cocked. I thought I could fix it with a new part. I took it apart and saw that no one could fix the problem. Internally the little pistol was just a poor design. The man I bought it from had bought parts from Colt thinking they would fit. They didn't. I sold it to someone who also thought he could fix the pistol. Ishowed him the problem but he assured me his gunsmith could make it work. After about two months the gunsmith gave it back saying he could not make it work. The man I sold it to sold it to yet another man who later declared that he got the pistol working. I didn't believet the story and I never got to see the pistol work. Browning"s 1911 pistol is a marvel of design. None of the Spainish pistols are even close to it in form or funcion.

[Gtek]

You have played this game long enough, there are those that have and those that will. Don't be so hard on yourself, I thought you liked being a gunsmith? Just the bitter taste of knowing who is paying, been there, done that here.

[HumptyDumpty]

I can't relate to Gopher Slayer's experience at all, but then, all of my Spanish pistols have been Stars. I actually prefer their variation of the 1911 design, in both the BM9 and PD45. I wish they were still in business.

[Sasquatch-1]

Well, yesterday I decided to field strip the pistol and give it a good cleaning and inspection. I noted that the barrel was reluctant to unlock from the slide, and it took several jerks to get it off the front of the frame. Next, I removed the barrel and link from the slide, and the link fell out onto my desk in two pieces. Long past the time in which a return might be accepted.


I'm sure that I'll be able to repair it using a link for a 1911, as the size is very similar. Any radius difference can probably be solved using a Dremel and rotary stone, and the thickness can be adjusted with a flat needle file. Unfortunately, Llama is now about 20 years out of business.


DG

You might try the following link. They have a lot of barrel links. You may find a close match to what you need.
https://www.egwguns.com/1911-parts/slide-parts/barrel-links/

[WRideout]

I have a Star PD in 45 ACP that I love. Also have a S&W clone revolver made by Hermanos Beistegui, chambered in 32-20. Both are well-made and reliable.

Wayne

[Texas by God]

I would take a Star PD over any Officers Model- Colt or otherwise. They solved the compact .45 dilemma before it even started. Detonics who?
The machining and craftsmanship on an Astra 400 or 600 is world class work. Check one out sometime if you have doubts.


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[Der Gebirgsjager]

You might try the following link. They have a lot of barrel links. You may find a close match to what you need.
https://www.egwguns.com/1911-parts/slide-parts/barrel-links/

Thanks for the link to the links! I have a couple of the kits they show that contain several links of different sizes that I acquired from Brownell's back in my 1911 building phase of life. Should be no problem to fix this. Going to do so soon, and will post the results.

Well, Gopher Slayer, I'm not going to mount a defense of the Llama .380. I own 5 of them, and they all work just fine. You can buy a lemon in almost any product line including Smith & Wesson and Chevrolet. It sounds like yours had already been tinkered with. The III and III-A models were one of the flagships of their product line, sold thousands upon thousands over many years, so that sort of speaks for itself. There was one significant change which was that the original production had a linked barrel, but that later changed to being a blow back. Mine are 3 of the first and 2 of the second, all work. The sad thing is that since all the good Spanish makers have been out of business for at least 20 years, any of their pistols you buy is likely to be used and what their former owners did to them is unknown, just like this 9mm/38 with the broken link.

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Top .380, bottom 9mm 4S Brand grips .380 I made the grips

DG

[rintinglen]

The older, locked breech, 380 Llamas were much better than the later, blow-back ones. My buddy Cole, now sadly passed on, had a 50's -60's gun that ran like a top. IIRC, it was imported by Galef and sons. At the time, I though I'd do well to get some thing similar. But it didn't turn out that way.

Both of the ones that I have had were/are pretty poor. The one I have now, a late production, red box gun from the mid 90s would not feed at all and appeared to have been unfired when I got it. After polishing the feed ramp and altering the feed lips of the magazine, I got it to where it only hangs up on the last round in the magazine. Not exactly comforting, but 7 out of 8 shots work ok.

[HumptyDumpty]

DG, those are some very nice looking grips. Every time I see something like that, I think that I need to take up woodworking. Then I remember that I can't even keep up with my existing hobbies.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I can't relate to Gopher Slayer's experience at all, but then, all of my Spanish pistols have been Stars. I actually prefer their variation of the 1911 design, in both the BM9 and PD45. I wish they were still in business.

Star pistolas--love 'em! My usual carry pistol is a Star Model B 9mm. Very accurate and reliable, but just a bit more svelte than a 1911. I've got one of the SS model .380s also, and it's a keeper until death do us part! So--you want a good laugh....here's the one I carry (usually). I bought it on Gunbroker about 10 years ago. It was one of those sort of lightly rusty all over pistols. I completely stripped it and cleaned everything. It was fairly presentable, with no pitting, but I found that it continued to lightly rust. The only explanation I could come up with was body heat and humidity from being under a winter coat. So....I polished it down to "in the white" and painted it! The only solution I could come up with at the time, but I've since thought that black hard chrome might have been another option. I used Brownell's Aluma Hyde II, and got the stainless steel grip screws from e-bay. It's quite reliable, quite accurate, goes most places with me in an IWB holster. You won't hurt my feelings if you say that it's ugly.....but like my momma always said, "Ugly is as ugly does." (Sorry Forrest Gump...couldn't resist.)

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But, at least the grips are nice. There's a story there......way back in 19hunertand81 I was going through the Colorado School of Trades gunsmithing school, and they had a very active stockmaking section. The students would take some very attractive walnut rifle stock blanks and lay out a stock pattern with a template, then cut away the excess with a band saw. The scraps went into the trash bin, and you know who was there to scrounge the exceptional pieces. There was a great pistol grip maker named Reine Smith in Texas, 4S Brand, now retired, (a year older than me!) who pretty much specialized in grips for Spanish pistols. In fact, for those interested, he is one of the leading U.S. experts on Llama pistol model identification, having a large collection and having made grips for all of them. Since he retired he shut down his web page, but still maintains one for M1 Carbine collectors, and if you can find it there is a link to his Llama model identification page. Anyway, about 2005 I sent off one of the salvaged chunks of fancy walnut to Mr. Smith and received back several sets of nice grips. Yeah...I'll admit it; painted pistol and fancy grips--just another eccentric old gun guy. :(

310901

Here's the Star SS Model .380.

The Star BM model might be the best of the breed. They were the official sidearm of the Guardia Civil before they followed the trend to plastic. They must have had a lot of them, and all of them must have been imported to the U.S., which made for them being relatively inexpensive. J&G still has them in stock. The first wave of them had the Guardia's property mark on them on the right side of both the slide and frame, but the second wave had the markings removed by a swirl marking. Here's an original and one I built from a stripped frame. I got the frame on Gunbroker and the parts from J&G. I do not advise that course of action, as the one I built ended up costing as much as just buying a complete pistol. As you can see in the photo, the C.G.'s marking is on the frame, but has been swirled out on the slide.

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Click to enlarge.

DG

Well, an edit here to explain the extra photos of the BM. I took them to illustrate the progression of applying the stock finish to the bare maple, and was sorting through them for the final photo (top row). Don't know how the extras rode along into this post.

[WRideout]

Nice work, DG. I'm jealous.

I halfway thought about getting a Star BM when they were so cheap. Probably should have.

Wayne

[Battis]

I have a few Spanish handguns and keeping the calibers straight makes my brain work harder than it wants to.
I have an Astra 400 in 9mm Largo/38 ACP. I get a kick out of watching unaware people try to work the slide. Some can't.
I have a Colt 1903 Pocket Hammer in 38/ACP. I use .38 Super brass. Occasionally I ready about people shooting .38 Super loads in those guns (Astra and Colt), and I cringe.
I have an Astra 600 in .9mm Luger.
I have a Star Super in .9mm Largo but it also came with an aftermarket (Korean?) .9mm Luger barrel. Drops right in and shoots well.
I did fire several .9mm Luger rounds in the Astra 400, which is not a good idea.
Great guns, all of them.

[cainttype]

I was never a fan of Llama, and saw too many problems with them too often.
I was very fond of the Star line, though, and hated to see them become history.

The early Stars were what I considered JMB would have drawn up as a 1911 in 1935. By then he’d moved away from sliding triggers to a pivoting type and he never really “wanted” the 1911’s grip “safety” included in any of his designs.
Star’s design progressions eventually eliminated the barrel links (as JMB did with the 1935 HP) and also adopted full-length guide rods.

The last of the Star designs was probably the best of all the “wonder-9s”, if having enough weight to beat a horse to death wasn’t an issue, the 30MI.
The 30MI design borrowed almost every unique attribute from the various “best of the best designs” and incorporated them into one ultimate 9mm after adding a few of their own “better” ideas… Those same guns came through the surplus market here cheap, and it’s a shame they weren’t better known at the time.

If you really want to see an exceptional “Duty Gun” design and are not familiar with the big Star, do yourself a favor and look it up.

[JoeJames]

I have a few Spanish handguns and keeping the calibers straight makes my brain work harder than it wants to.
I have an Astra 400 in 9mm Largo/38 ACP. I get a kick out of watching unaware people try to work the slide. Some can't.
I have a Colt 1903 Pocket Hammer in 38/ACP. I use .38 Super brass. Occasionally I ready about people shooting .38 Super loads in those guns (Astra and Colt), and I cringe.
I have an Astra 600 in .9mm Luger.
I have a Star Super in .9mm Largo but it also came with an aftermarket (Korean?) .9mm Luger barrel. Drops right in and shoots well.
I did fire several .9mm Luger rounds in the Astra 400, which is not a good idea.
Great guns, all of them.This post excavated an ancient memory. Around 1972 a buddy got in what I think was an Astra 600 kit. Over a few beers we decided to put the thing together. We had no idea of how strong the recoil spring was - no consideration of its being blow back operated. So I've got a pretty fair grip on the Astra and my buddy is desperately trying to push the recoil spring and front cap down on to it.

Warm night - windows open - my buddy lost his grip, and "sprang!" off went the spring through the open window. Never found it.

He ordered another spring and figured it might go together easier if the receiver was in a vice.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

311098

There isn't really a trick to the final stage of reassembly--more a matter of technique. The way I do it is to stand it vertically, put the cap on the spring, then start slow, even downward pressure. Once the cap's locking lugs enter the slide give it a twist and it locks. Sometimes you have to back off and realign the cap's lugs with the slide slots and try again. I think everyone who has never disassembled for the first time gets a big surprise if they don't keep pressure on the cap when turning it!

DG

[Battis]

The Astra 400 that I bought came with a few hundred vintage rounds (I think it was 200 but I'm not sure). Boy, what a deal...except every single "vintage" round was a dud. I salvaged the jacketed bullets at least.
I have an Astra Constable .380 that I cannot get to feed correctly. I bought a second magazine but something's not right. I think it might be the recoil spring but I can't find a replacement.