Early Springfield Trapdoor

[ddeaton]

Ok guys, here it is. I just stared casting last year for my pistols and rifles. The other day I spotted my old Trapdoor sitting in the safe. Ive had it for 15 yrs and never shot it. It is a early serial number and from what I have read, weak receiver. What can I cast and load to shoot in this rifle? Or should I just set it back in the safe?

[Bullshop]

Prolly want to slugg the bore and see what ya got there. If ya just want to take a stab at a cheap mold try the Lee HB 405. Spence Wolf, the guy that wrote the book :loading cartridges for the origonal springfield trap door: designed it from origonal springfield arsonal drawings. I have a bunch of recoverd origonal boolits and the design is very close to the carbine boolit.
I would cast them from pure lead or a very soft alloy like 50/1. Load it with real powder and it should shoot good for another century or two.
BIC/BS

[Larry Gibson]

I shoot TDs all the time. Do you want to shoot smokeless or black powder? Spence Wolf's book is really the best way to start loading for TDs. It get's you started understanding some basics and has the info for both smokeless and BP loads. After tha there are some techniques to further im prove accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[missionary5155]

Good morning
My 1884 TD slugs at .462+ and it defyed simple ACCURATE loading. So I finally bought a 405 Rapine that drops at .463+ with Pure Lead and it will slay coyotes at 100 yards with no problem. 3 inch 100 yard groups. Last time up I practiced with bowling pins on cross sticks.
15 grains Unique or 65 grains 2F (Boolit seated out to bump up to the rifling). Both shoot the same. And in a T shirt on HOT summer days it flat Bruises me bad (155 pounds of me).
Mike God Bless you.

[ddeaton]

Thanks guys, I will look for this book. What about using black powder with these? Is this covered in the book also?

[13Echo]

For the book Bullshop mentioned google Old Western Traders and order it from Spence's widow. You can also order a set of Lee dies modified specifically to load for the Springfield. It's a rambler of a book but full of info that otherwise is hard to get and his methods for loading work. The only difference I have with it is I didn't see improvement with drilling out the flash holes. Others find it helps. And, yes, he covers black powder.

Jerry Liles

[13Echo]

Oops. They changed the name to Wolf's Western Traders at this url:

http://www.the45-70book.com/

Jerry Liles

[ddeaton]

Thanks Jerry

[northmn]

The Lyman Cast bullet Handbook had loads for a trapdoor in smokeless and in BP. So far I have heard that the Lee mold is very good for the Trapdoor. Lyman cliamed taht they used 18000 psi as their standard for smokeless loads as that is what BP generates. I am prejudiced, I use BP in my Rolling Block.

Northmn

[ddeaton]

I might order that Lee mold, is it a hollow base, or solid?

[13Echo]

The 405gr Lee mould you want is the hollow base. It is a more or less faithful copy of the 1873 bullet. Out of 1:30 alloy mine casts a bit light at about 395 grs but it shoots well in my 1884. I have a friend with a rifle with near pristine bore and the bullet regularly cuts 3 shot cloverleafs at 100yds with a 59gr carbine load.

For the 500gr 1881 bullet there is the SAECO 881 that casts a close replica right at 500grs. Buffalo Arms, Paul Jones, and others can supply custom or semi-custom moulds for that bullet in the proper size range. The Lyman version of the 1881 casts a bit heavy and is longer and skinnier at about .458". It shoots well in some rifles but tumbles out of mine.

The Lee mould makes a good bullet and is an excellent choice to get started.

Jerry Liles

[Larry Gibson]

ddeaton

The Lee 459-405-HP is a pretty faithful copy of the M1873 bullet. While it has a "hollow base" it does not work as a minie type bullet. If you get one you'll notice how thick the skirts of the HB are. The HB was only used to regulate the weight of the bullet while keeping the external dimensions the same. However most of the Lee 405 HB moulds drop the bullets at .460 or larger when cast soft. Mine drop at .465" when cast of 1-20 alloy. You can shoot thes "as cast" in most any original TD with excellent results. If sized down to .459 they will no "bump up" to fill the grooves of the TD unless a very, very soft alloy is used anlong with the full service rifle load. Much better accuracy is had by shooting the "as cast" and letting the them swage down to fit the barrel when fired.

The Army went to a the heavier 500 gr bullet in 1881 because the extra inertia of the heavier bullet allowed it to "bump up". They were still into the "bumping up" of bullets back then as that was thought the way to do it from muzzle loading rifles and minei type bullets. I use a Rapine 460500 gr mould which replicates the m1881 500 gr bullet. Mine cast out at .462" when cast of 1-16 alloy. I size them at .4615" which just fits my TD barrel. My target BP loads will group 10 into less than 4' at 200 yards if i do my part.

Get the Wolf book, it is the best place to start with TDs.

Larry Gibson

[ddeaton]

Thanks all, I will order the Lee mold and the book. What is the deal with the dies? I see some special die sets on Wolf's site, but looks like they just give you an extra expander die and a powder tamper. Does Lee have a set for the trapdoor? Or should I just order a Lee set and a extra expander?

[ddeaton]

And if you dont size this Lee 405 HB, then how do you lube them? By hand?

[Frank46]

I believe that the weak receiver that you refer to is actually the type of breech block. Some of the early ones had a high arch in the underside of the breech block. The later ones had much more metal and I think were referred to as low arch breech blocks. I have a 1873 breech block with the high arch. Maybe someone who is more familiar with the trapdoor would chime in and give more info. Hope this little info such as it is helps. Frank

[boommer]

Soft lead is the key to those bores 1-30 mix is what I found with my old trappy. I never shot any smokeless loads in her. Pan lubing is my method when I don't size. The bullet I use is the Lee 500gr .459 mould and it dose very well in her. accuracy wise I'll get clovers out of it ,if my going to crap eyes are working that day at 100 YDS. The other thing too if it has the original sights on it, you will have to put a taller front blade on it. That's easy there just a pin holding the blade in. These rifle's will shoot about a foot high at 100 Yards.

[13Echo]

the Lee dies sold by Wolf have a powder compression plug which is almost a necessity with black powder and a special expansion plug to allow seating the larger diameter bullets you will be using. the Lee dies are well made. If you buy a set of Lyman or RCBS you'll still need a compression plug, and a custom expander and will easily spend more than the cost of the 5 die Lee set from Wolf.

As for lubing, like boomer says, pan lube. It's easy. Just make certain to use a proper black powder lube.

Jerry Liles

[Larry Gibson]

ddeaton

As explained by 13Echo, the special Lee dies sold by Wolf are the ones to get. Make sure you specify the larger expander when ordering. I have pan lubed in the past but it is too messy for me. I can sit in my easy chair watching a movie and hand lube a couple hundred of them. SPG or my own lube based on Wolfs lube of beeswax and olive oil (he used 50/50 and I use 50/40) work easily with the fingers. A wad of paper towels keeps fingers clean when sipping a whiskey or cold beer:-)

Larry Gibson

[13Echo]

Pan lubing is easy. You need a flat bottom aluminum or plastic pan. Sit the bullets tail down each about 3/8" apart. Melt the lube in a double boiler and pour it into the pan till the grease grooves are filled. when the lube has cooled to form a cake it will pull away from the sides of the pan. Turn the pan over onto a nice, thick, folded towel and dump out the lube cake. Turn the lube cake back over on the towel with the bullet bases down and push on the nose of each bullet to break it free in the cake. Pick the lube cake up and push the bullets all the way out. Very easy, and, at least for me, not at all messy.

Jerry Liles

[mooman76]

I used that bullet, the Lee 405g Hb 457 in my 1873 TD. It didn't shoot as good as I hoped but still not bad. Lee I believe makes one similar in a .459 which should do better for me because that is where mine slugged at. The best I could get was 2" at 50y but I usually got 3-4". I also tried unique in mine and got pressure signs if I remember right at 14g with COW filler so I stopped using the filler. Saw no improvement anyway at that point and did best with BP sub.

[northmn]

Mooman. The Lee bullets other than the 459 HB did not well for me either with Black Powder out of a 45-70. They cast too small, one at 456 and they do not have adequate lube grooves. As to a compression system. You can use a 7.62X39 case and mark it for depth and compress that way. Worked for me for quite a while.

Northmn

[opentop]

Hey deaton, I can help ya with the pan lubbing if ya need it!

[ddeaton]

Hey deaton, I can help ya with the pan lubbing if ya need it!

sounds good, I am liking this. I might as well go with black powder too.

[boommer]

ddeaton If you load load that old girl with black be prepared it becomes a sickness next thing you know hooked like a junkie. I know it happen to me about ten years ago and now I need at least 50 pounds of bp a year and bpc rifles start following you home. I shoot my Trappy alot,probably 300 rounds this year already. The one thing is you have to have a bullet .459 at least and soft no harder than 1-30. Do you have the Buffington rear site on it? There's just something about shooting a piece of history. I also cleaned my bore with some FLITZ before I shot it, do that to every really old gun that I buy.

[Zad Fnark]

The Trapdoor's strength probably gets a bit of a bum rap. A good thread on the subject has come up here:

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/cgi-bin/afrasca/bulletin/config.pl?read=16184

I have three myself: models 1866 (.50-70), 1873 and 1884. I'm still fumbling for the most accurate load and lots of what I've shot have been tumbling. I'm just setting up cartridges using Lee's 405 gr HB bullet. I'm hoping the extra thousandth will help.

I've been using Goex Pinnacle as of late. I may give APP a shot. One guy on trapdoorcollector swears by it. I've also been working on loads using Accurate 5744, which was designed for these old big cartridges.

ZF-

[ddeaton]

ddeaton If you load load that old girl with black be prepared it becomes a sickness next thing you know hooked like a junkie. I know it happen to me about ten years ago and now I need at least 50 pounds of bp a year and bpc rifles start following you home. I shoot my Trappy alot,probably 300 rounds this year already. The one thing is you have to have a bullet .459 at least and soft no harder than 1-30. Do you have the Buffington rear site on it? There's just something about shooting a piece of history. I also cleaned my bore with some FLITZ before I shot it, do that to every really old gun that I buy.

I am not sure on the rear site. I will post pics when I get a chance. I shoot flintlocks so the black powder falls into place for me. I ordered the book and dies from Wolf. Now I need to get the mold. I also need to get with Opentop soon, as I think I will load up some 45 Colt for my sa pistol with BP.