9mm cast boolits coming loose

[Ricky Bobby]

Hello all. I apologize if this is a repeated question. I’ve been doing some 9mm reloading lately with 115 round nose bullets from Missouri Bullet Company. For the most part, everything has been going great, but I’ve had a few come loose while shooting several times in succession. The times it’s happened, the bullet has been towards the bottom of the magazine.the bullet will try to chamber, but locks the action up. When I get the bullet out, it is over the max allowable length (I’m still at the stage where I’m checking all my bullets, so I know it was seated under the max length when I put it in the magazine). I am putting a crimp on them. Any ideas why they might be coming loose? Thanks in advance.

[lancem]

My first thought would be that your crimp is too hard, you are sizing down the bullet and then the brass is springing back a bit leaving things loose. Are you using a taper crimp die?

[Willie T]

If you put too much flare on the case prior to seating you lose neck tension. Then when you bend the flare back down with a taper crimp, the case bulges behind where the flare was, further reducing neck tension. I don’t think you can get more neck tension with a cast bullet and a taper crimp without swaging down your cast projectiles. Try less flare on the case mouths and see if that fixes your problem.
Willie

[Ricky Bobby]

My first thought would be that your crimp is too hard, you are sizing down the bullet and then the brass is springing back a bit leaving things loose. Are you using a taper crimp die?

Yes, using a Lee factory crimp. How much crimp do you recommend, and how do you go about measuring? Micrometer?

[Ricky Bobby]

If you put too much flare on the case prior to seating you lose neck tension. Then when you bend the flare back down with a taper crimp, the case bulges behind where the flare was, further reducing neck tension. I don’t think you can get more neck tension with a cast bullet and a taper crimp without swaging down your cast projectiles. Try less flare on the case mouths and see if that fixes your problem.
Willie

That’s very possible. I’m still pretty new at metallic reloading. How much flare do you recommend?

[littlejack]

You have to have enough flare to allow the boolit to be seated down in the case, without shaving lead from the outside of the boolit. Your reloading manual will give you a dimension to hold the outside of the case to with the seated bullet. For the 9mm, it is .380 with bullet seated.

[Willie T]

I seat my cast with the internal dimension of the case mouth flared to .002-.003 plus the diameter the bullet is sized to in cases that headspace on the mouth. I screw the expander down till a bullet will start. I don’t measure that while I’m setting up the expander die. Then taper crimp to just smooth back out the flare from the case mouth till the cartridge will plunk in the barrel. Your barrel is the guide to how much taper crimp that takes. As already mentioned, .380 O.D. Is SAAMI. In my experience with cast bullets and taper crimp dies, brass cases have more spring back than lead bullets. Hang on to as much of the neck tension you established from sizing the case as you can.
Willie

Edit to add: I am loading on a single stage. Maybe some of the members that load on progressive presses will comment on how much case flare they require.

[Sig]

The Lee FCD has been accused many times of swaging down boolits. I have no first hand experience with this as I've never used one. I taper crimp as a separate step from seating & all has been good.

[Larry Gibson]

Are you using the complete Lee 4 die set to load with?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Yes, using a Lee factory crimp. How much crimp do you recommend, and how do you go about measuring? Micrometer?

Yes a 1" Micrometer.

Try this:
measure the case with seated boolit (below the flare) before crimping, then again after crimping.
If that dimension shrinks, that will cause loose boolits.
The Lee 9mm carbide FCD is notorious for doing this.

[pworley1]

What diameter bullets are you using? Try .357 or .358 bullets and bell the case mouth just enough to let the bullet base to enter the mouth of the case. Add desired powder, seat the bullet to the desired depth and crimp only enough to completely remove the belling. Shoot and enjoy.

[Dave W.]

What is happening, is because there is not enough neck tension to keep the bullet held in place. With the repeated firings the bullet slowly works it way out of the case. Several things can cause this. Lets start with belling the case, the bell should only be large enough for the bullet to seat with out shaving any lead off. Seat a bullet then pull it and measure the diameter, it should be the same as the original diameter. It it is smaller, increase the bell. Once the bullet is inserted into the case, it will have the maximum tension on it, anything else done to the case reduces that tension.

What diameter are the bullets you are loading? I size mine to .357 for 9MM. The stem to size the case measures .352. Sizing the case to .003 under the bullet diameter is enough.

The case does not need to be crimped, all that needs to be done is remove the bell. Here again, seat a bullet, then de-bell it, pull the bullet and measure the diameter, check to see if there is a lip where the mouth of the case was squeezed into the bullet, if so, reduce the amount of de-bell.

I do not recommend using a Lee FCD die.

[Ricky Bobby]

Thank you all for the information. It sounds like I need to adjust some on the case mouth expansion. I am using the .356 parrabellum bullet from Missouri Bullet Co, and I’m using a Lee FCD to finish things off. It seems like a few folks don’t like the Lee FCD. Why is that?

[Willie T]

The crimp ends up too tight on SOME over size cast which can size a cast bullet that you don’t want sized any smaller. They work fine in some instances. In other instances they can contribute to leading or worse yet key holing.
I tried a Lee FCD in 40S&W using starline brass. Could not get my loads to stop leading. After some consternation, I discovered regardless of what I sized to, Bullets ended up .400 after closing the case mouth. Thinner brass would have also worked. That same crimp die works great for jacketed projectiles in my .40.

[reddog81]

It sounds like your rounds are on the edge of being to long. That is what is causing them to not chamber. Too much or to little taper crimp won’t cause a failure to go into battery. A faulty 9mm crimp will cause the bullets to jam deeper into the case when feeding. Your bullets are hitting and getting stuck the throat or rifling and getting pulled out when retracting the slide. Seat the bullets a bit deeper.

[mdi]

I would suggest minimal flare and no "crimping" I have been reloading semi-auto rounds for probably 30 years and do not crimp any. I just use a deflaring tool (aka; taper crimp die) to remove any flare and allow good plunk testing...

I have had a Lee FCD "resize" some of my cast bullet handloads, about 20 years ago and it now resides in a landfill somewhere in So. Oregon...

[Larry Gibson]

Thank you all for the information. It sounds like I need to adjust some on the case mouth expansion. I am using the .356 parrabellum bullet from Missouri Bullet Co, and I’m using a Lee FCD to finish things off. It seems like a few folks don’t like the Lee FCD. Why is that?

I've loaded many rounds of 9mm using the lee 4 die set including using the LFC die. I've had no problems with most cases using .356 and .357 sized cast bullets and even .355 jacketed bullets. However, I have encountered some very thin 9mm cases that do not hold .355/.356 size bullets tight enough. Has nothing to do with the Lee FCD but is because the brass case is just too thin. If using a mix of cases you might note which cases are the problem. If different from the others it is those cases.

[Sig]

Have you done a push test with any of your completed rounds? This would indicate if you have a neck tension issue.

How did you determine your max COL? You may have a short throat. CZ's are notorious for this.

Did you plunk & spin test any completed rounds in your barrel? This would indicate if your COL & possibly crimp were at fault.

Which make & model gun are you loading for?

[gloob]

I have them in all my pistol dies just so my Lee die boxes match and stack, buying the "deluxe set." You can knock out the carbide ring to turn a pistol FCD into a normal taper crimp die.

The irony, though. The only pistol caliber where I have found it necessary to deflare the case mouth post-seating is 40 caliber; I have some tight chambers in these guns. And I use my 40 FCD for debulging cases. So I have all these pistol FCD's, and I still had to buy a separate taper crimp die for the one pistol caliber I wanted one.

That was a fortuitous purchase, that 40 taper die. I realized some of my brass was too thick at the case mouth because the rounds would hang up and get scratched up by the entrance to the taper die, even though the flare was beyond minimal. These rounds wouldn't chamber unless I went beyond deflaring into actual taper crimp, and then they would inevitably leave fouling because there was zero room for the crimp to open back up.

[Sig]

I've loaded many rounds of 9mm using the lee 4 die set including using the LFC die. I've had no problems with most cases using .356 and .357 sized cast bullets and even .355 jacketed bullets. However, I have encountered some very thin 9mm cases that do not hold .355/.356 size bullets tight enough. Has nothing to do with the Lee FCD but is because the brass case is just too thin. If using a mix of cases you might note which cases are the problem. If different from the others it is those cases.

I've had that issue with Fed & Blazer brass using "J" words. I've since starting using a Lee "U" sizing die & problem solved. Never had that issue with cast as I size those to .357". As I stated prior I have no experience with the Lee FCD & never saw the need for it.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Thank you all for the information. It sounds like I need to adjust some on the case mouth expansion. I am using the .356 parrabellum bullet from Missouri Bullet Co, and I’m using a Lee FCD to finish things off. It seems like a few folks don’t like the Lee FCD. Why is that?
The Lee carbide FCD has a carbide sleeve to resize the entire loaded cartridge body. The problem comes in, if you get a die that is slightly undersized, which has been reported by numerous users, but since some people have used them without causing problems, I suspect Lee get's it right, once in a while.
The easiest way to find out if you have a problem die or not, is to measure the cartridge before and after crimp, as I commented above.
Good Luck,
Jon

[ioon44]

I agree get rid of the Lee dies and get bullets that are .002" over your bore size.

I use .359" Hi-Tek coated bullets in my 9mm's, also I use Hornady dies.

Test your loaded rounds by pushing the loaded round against the edge of your loading bench as hard as you can you and it should not set back in the case.

[BC17A]

The problem with Lee die is that it's like a box of chocolates. You never know what you'll get. The FCD's sizing ring is normally sized for standard diameter boolits only, i.e. .355" in 35 cal. I recall my 9mm FCD was fine with a j-word boolit but would swage a .356" coated boolit down by .0005" or so. My 380 FCD was fine with anything up to .357" in diameter, and my 38 Super FCD up to .358". Some people correct the issue by removing the sizing rings altogether but I choose to use a diamond paste and polish them open a thou or two on the lathe.

[Ricky Bobby]

I did a little adjusting this afternoon. I first raised my case mount expanding die, and the cases are now belling out to about .379 to .380”. That seems to be plenty to get the bullet started. I seated the first bullet, and when I went to crimp it it actually popped the bullet loose in the case. So I deepened my seating depth (now 1.115-ish, min COL is 1.1), and backed off the crimp until it just resized the bell to the size it should be. I loaded 8, which is what the gun would hold. I only had one malfunction, and that was due to a light primer strike. I loaded it back into the gun and it shot fine. I really appreciate all the help and suggestions. You folks are top shelf!

[WRideout]

If you are seating the bullets deeper, make sure you are not getting higher chamber pressures. Sticky extraction is one indicator.

Wayne

[mdi]

It seems like a few folks don’t like the Lee FCD. Why is that?

I'll try to be unbiased about the FCD (the crimp die mainly used for "straight sided" hand gun cartridges). Much of the dislike comes from the "post crimping resizing" feature of the die. But some like this feature, from what I gather it is insurance that every cartridge will chamber successfully. Some want this insurance for their competition ammo and some for 100% feeding/chambering of their self defense handloads. The post crimping sizing has swaged down cast bullets resulting in poor accuracy and barrel leading, which happened to my handloads. I punched out the carbide sizing ring from my FCD, but I preferred my Redding Profile Crimp die and eventually put the FCD somewhere safe (so safe I cannot find it). Some use it for a "bulge buster" for swelled cases. I believe a lot of experienced reloaders swear by the FCD and some swear at it. Some use it because it comes with the Lee die kit, and if that's all you got, use it...

My opinion only; I am not anti-Lee and use their collet crimp FCD dies for 4 cartridges and many of their die sets. In all my reloading I have never needed to resize any of my handloads after crimping, revolver or semi-auto. If one is having problems with rounds chambering find out why and correct the problem. I have seen, many times, newer reloaders posting about failures to chamber and instead of help finding the cause are just told to get an FCD. I have been able to get good chambering handloads without resizing finished rounds. Other than that, both FCD use and "standard" crimping can produce 100% reliable handloads depending on the user...

[justindad]

I will concur on the Redding crimp die. Their taper crimp has a longer taper than I’ve seen on RCBS, Hornady and the Lee FCD. The longer crimp will give stronger neck tension and help if you belled the case mouth too much.
*
Seating deep helps because the friction force to move the bullet is proportional to the surface area of the interference for. Improving other aspects of the cartridge can allow you to go back to your original OAL.
*
You could check the diameter of your expander die. A 0.356” bullet is on the small side for lead, so if you’re using an M-Die then you could be expanding too much, which will reduce neck tension. Soft lead should go with an expander die that is 0.001-0.002” smaller than your bullet (0.356”), and hardball can go up to 0.003” under.
*
Someone else may give better numbers on the best size for an expander die.

[gloob]

You could check the diameter of your expander die. A 0.356” bullet is on the small side for lead, so if you’re using an M-Die then you could be expanding too much, which will reduce neck tension. Soft lead should go with an expander die that is 0.001-0.002” smaller than your bullet (0.356”), and hardball can go up to 0.003” under.
*
Someone else may give better numbers on the best size for an expander die.

I might have given it a rest. But then you called it.

Your brass should be 1 thous smaller than the bullet, not your expander. Means your expander can be same size as the bullet. Even 1 thous larger should not cause loss of neck tension unless the brass is bad. But most of the time, the expander plug in a die set isn't for expanding. It's only for removing dings in a case mouth and/or flaring the case mouth, so it's typically 2-3 thous smaller than a jacketed bullet.

Since 2-3 thous smaller than jacketed is the norm, we might think our cast bullet is 1 thous larger, so we need an expander that is 1 thous larger. No, you never do. Either you can just flare the case mouth, or if your case actually needs expanding, you'll typically need to go MUCH bigger than the stock expander. Not 1-2 thous smaller than the bullet. Not 1-2 thous larger than a stock expander. Just go the full OD of the bullet IF you need to expand the case from where the size die leaves it (most of the time you don't need to do this).

This is why stock Lyman M dies are useless for expanding. They make them 1-2 thous larger than a stock expander. Still doesn't expand the case. Only useful in the calibers where you can buy them the proper size (full OD of the bullet) due to overlap with other calibers.

As for the redding, a long gently tapered taper die could cause loss of more tension. You want to remove the flare on the mouth, is all, and you have to press it in by a little more than bullet OD in order to remove all the flare, due to springback of the brass. The longer and gently the taper, the more of your bullet will be pressed in by the time you have removed all the flare from the case mouth.

[6622729]

I've loaded many rounds of 9mm using the lee 4 die set including using the LFC die. I've had no problems with most cases using .356 and .357 sized cast bullets and even .355 jacketed bullets. However, I have encountered some very thin 9mm cases that do not hold .355/.356 size bullets tight enough. Has nothing to do with the Lee FCD but is because the brass case is just too thin. If using a mix of cases you might note which cases are the problem. If different from the others it is those cases.

I have no problem with Lee FCD on jacketed or cast regardless of diameter. What is the initial feel when you insert the bullet? That is, what is the neck tension like? Can you push it in doing the push test? If yes does it push in doing the push test after crimping?

[DougGuy]

The bigger you go with the boolit, the more case neck tension you will get. However this comes with a price. First they may not plunk and twist in your barrel with the throat as is from the factory, so you seat deeper as a workaround, you MUST compensate the load data to allow for lesser case volume under the seated boolit or risk an over pressure event.

The other thing, if you use the FCD with the carbide ring in the bottom, it may size your boolits down in the case it they are of sufficient diameter to seal in the bore so you load a .358" and run it through the FCD, now pull the boolit with a kinetic puller and mic the boolit see if it is swaged down in size. The secondary effect of the FCD is that it squeezes the brass AND the boolit down as it passes, and when it comes back up off the boolit, the brass case springs back and you lose a LOT of that all important case tension you had before using the FCD.

Smaller diameter boolits usually can go through the FCD and not be resized. The FCD will definitely swage down .358" unless you got an exception to the rule FCD, they are not all the same. Seems to be the luck of the draw on what the FCD actually sizes a loaded round to.

And, the hardness of the boolit has a LOT to do with the finished size after using the FCD. Softer boolits will come through the same die a different OD on the case than a harder alloy boolit and the resulting case tension will be widely varied depending on alloy used.

The most dangerous thing you want to make sure to avoid, is setback. Those boolits at the bottom of the stack that moved forward in the case, not enough tension to hold them, as you feed a round from the magazine that doesn't pass the "push test" and it gets pushed back into the case when it hits the feed ramp, now you got a shorter COA, but with the same powder charge you intended to use for the longer COA, and if your loads are anywhere near the upper end of the allowed pressure, setback of even .010" can send pressures skyrocketing.

If it gets set back far enough, there is the very real possibility that you can KB the gun in your hands, detonating most of the rounds in the magazine, sending shards of brass, lead, powder granules, broken plastic or wooden grip panels into your hands, face, and any bystanders in close proximity. Ask me how I KNOW about this one!

[gloob]

The bigger you go with the boolit, the more case neck tension you will get.

That's only IF your brass is too thin and/or your sizing die is too big to get full neck tension with a regular size bullet. That's crazy to have that happen in 9mm, though. I wonder if Larry has been reloading so long he has an old school tapered steel 9mm sizing die.

If your brass is small enough to get proper neck tension with a normal size bullet, going bigger on your bullet will not increase your neck tension at all. You'll feel more resistance seating the bullet. That's the force you're using to finish expanding the case, using the bullet as your expander plug. You might have slightly more resistance to setting back, only because the case is smaller behind the bullet. But the bullet won't have more neck tension.

[ioon44]

The bigger you go with the boolit, the more case neck tension you will get. However this comes with a price. First they may not plunk and twist in your barrel with the throat as is from the factory, so you seat deeper as a workaround, you MUST compensate the load data to allow for lesser case volume under the seated boolit or risk an over pressure event.

The other thing, if you use the FCD with the carbide ring in the bottom, it may size your boolits down in the case it they are of sufficient diameter to seal in the bore so you load a .358" and run it through the FCD, now pull the boolit with a kinetic puller and mic the boolit see if it is swaged down in size. The secondary effect of the FCD is that it squeezes the brass AND the boolit down as it passes, and when it comes back up off the boolit, the brass case springs back and you lose a LOT of that all important case tension you had before using the FCD.

Smaller diameter boolits usually can go through the FCD and not be resized. The FCD will definitely swage down .358" unless you got an exception to the rule FCD, they are not all the same. Seems to be the luck of the draw on what the FCD actually sizes a loaded round to.

And, the hardness of the boolit has a LOT to do with the finished size after using the FCD. Softer boolits will come through the same die a different OD on the case than a harder alloy boolit and the resulting case tension will be widely varied depending on alloy used.

The most dangerous thing you want to make sure to avoid, is setback. Those boolits at the bottom of the stack that moved forward in the case, not enough tension to hold them, as you feed a round from the magazine that doesn't pass the "push test" and it gets pushed back into the case when it hits the feed ramp, now you got a shorter COA, but with the same powder charge you intended to use for the longer COA, and if your loads are anywhere near the upper end of the allowed pressure, setback of even .010" can send pressures skyrocketing.

If it gets set back far enough, there is the very real possibility that you can KB the gun in your hands, detonating most of the rounds in the magazine, sending shards of brass, lead, powder granules, broken plastic or wooden grip panels into your hands, face, and any bystanders in close proximity. Ask me how I KNOW about this one!

Really good post, anyone loading 9 mm should print this and keep it on your loading room wall.

[Ed_Shot]

I've loaded many rounds of 9mm using the lee 4 die set including using the LFC die. I've had no problems with most cases using .356 and .357 sized cast bullets and even .355 jacketed bullets. However, I have encountered some very thin 9mm cases that do not hold .355/.356 size bullets tight enough. Has nothing to do with the Lee FCD but is because the brass case is just too thin. If using a mix of cases you might note which cases are the problem. If different from the others it is those cases.

I agree with Larry. I don't use the LEE FDC for 9MM but when I first started loading 9MM years ago I had intermittent issues with neck tension and I unequivocally traced it to two different brass headstamps. No longer use that brass and never had another issue with 9MM neck tension. Have you looked for a correlation between your neck tension problem and the brand of brass?

[Ricky Bobby]

Thank you all for the insights. During the loading process, the bullets didn’t seem to cause any extra resistance while seating. The bullets that did work free did show some scarring where I had crimped them. The case mouth also seemed to be very close to the groove in the base of the bullet, which is why I had started seating them a little deeper (still within the min col given in the data)

[bruce381]

Thank you all for the information. It sounds like I need to adjust some on the case mouth expansion. I am using the .356 parrabellum bullet from Missouri Bullet Co, and I’m using a Lee FCD to finish things off. It seems like a few folks don’t like the Lee FCD. Why is that?

Re Read post 8 and 10 the Lee FCD die is sizing your loaded case down to far and the brass springs back but the lead bullet will not this makes them loose.