Interesting issue in rotary tumbler

[Evoken]

Good morning gents,

I have been using one of the small rotary tumblers with pins, dawn, and food grade citric for some time now. I believe my pins have worn out. Not rounded or flattened, but they are bleeding the nickel out of the pins themselves.

Last few times I used it I noticed the brass was just not coming clean and had a dingey dark color to it. Now this is uniform and they look clean, just dingey. So, I had a batch of 5.56 that I let go all night. Wow and yuck. Lots of black goop came out of the tumbler and the brass looks almost nickel washed.

This media is most definitely the cheapest I could find and fairly well used. I've had it for at least 3 years and used it for hundred if not a thousand cycles. I have the brass in the tumbler now minus pins to see if I can get it cleaned up.

Has anyone seen this before? What the heck is going on here? My only thought is the pins are degrading. The brass was not that dirty before it went in.

[Bored1]

I just started using a wet tumbler so I am no expert, but I think pictures would help. Also what kind of tumbler is it? Is the drum metal or plastic? I stopped using lemishine or citric acid in mine, but that's because I forgot to rinse a batch off right away and it turned out uglier than it went in. Not sure if that's what happened with yours or not. I rehashed the brass in just plain dish soap, and it looked a bit better.

[Outer Rondacker]

Make sure the rubber is not deteriorating! Just one less issue to think of. That would explain the black. I would run a batch without the pins and see what happens. I have been washing brass for years without pins and it comes out clean. Pictures would help a lot. You should only need to run that brass for 15 mins to make it look new. All night is overkill.

[slim1836]

I run my pins with dawn, rinse, and then run them with plain water after a few sessions of tumbling brass. It may be just me, but it seems to help. Pins are expensive.

Slim

[JimB..]

Run for an hour with just pins, hot water and twice as much dawn as usual.

I sometimes “prewash” the brass in hot water and dawn with pins for 30 min, dump that water, then fill with water, wash ‘n wax, and acid.

[Evoken]

310681
The brass on the left is what came out. Brass on the right is prepped and ready to be washed. Only has spray lube on it otherwise fairly clean. The black crud that was in the tumbler is slightly magnetic and stick to the round magnet I place in the drain to catch the pins. On other thing to mention is some of the pins are starting to rust ever so slightly.

I mentioned possible nickel bleed because it looks similar to when I wet tumbled nickel brass before. It seems the nickel brass does not like the citric acid and looks dirty, especially if it is old and the nickel is already starting to fade away.

[Evoken]

The brass is in the rotary now with just dawn and acid, no pins. I will see shortly if it shines up.

I don't think there is anything wrong woth the brass at this point it just looks weird.

[rancher1913]

let me pose a question, how long can brass be abraded before it is worn out. i think pins used repeatedly on the same brass cause damage thats why i just wash and then use corn cob to polish. maybe im wrong but it would seem a hard metal (stainless) would eat away at a soft metal(brass) so i dont take a chance. sometimes trying to get "pretty" brass just aint worth it to me.

[Evoken]

Also, this is the small plastic frankfort tumbler.

[Finster101]

How long have you had that brass? I am starting to see some brass plated steel stuff show up at our range. I know it sounds crazy, but what could it hurt to check it with a magnet.

[Outer Rondacker]

How long have you had that brass? I am starting to see some brass plated steel stuff show up at our range. I know it sounds crazy, but what could it hurt to check it with a magnet.

Finster hit the nail on the head. I bet if you hit it with a magnet its steel.

[MrWolf]

First make sure there wasn't a piece of steel I the mix. Second, how long are you running a batch? I had an issue with running overnight that made em look like that also. Been awhile for me so...

[XDROB]

My Frankfort tumbler has a timer on it. Longest time is 2 hours. Bought it about three years ago. I'm thinking that the problem is the 'steel' brass also.

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[Evoken]

No steel brass. This is all lake city brass, that is mostly factory fired or reloaded by me once. I cut the crimps on all pieces, I am certain it started as regular old American made yellow brass.

[Evoken]

So still super weird. Ran the thing for an hour with no pins and dawn and acid. They started to shine up but still looked weird. Rinsed well then a run of just dawn, then they came out clean but dull.....

Now they are in one last run of dawn and acid, what they are is what they are after this run. Just so strange, I am still leaning towards the pins degrading. I'm certain I bought the cheapest junk pins I could find on amazon, so I am of course suspect of the cheap china crap.

Thus happened the other day also with a batch of 38's I had running, but to a much lesser degree. They were only running about an hour and I noticed I missed a piece of nickel brass in the mix and thought that was the problem.

Just in case the pins picked something up they did not shake, they are soaking in industrial degreaser now. That should get them as clean as they will come.

I would not think this is from the rubber seal or the plastic drum as they should both be resistant to such a mild acid as citric.

[NyFirefighter357]

It is not the pins degrading, it's that they & the tumbling container are dirty. Take your pins, add hot water to the container and add a degreaser like Simple Green tumble for an hour & repeat until it the water comes out clean. How much citric acid are you using? The citric acid is just to counter hard water, you only need a little. Too much soap will also leave residue on the pins & tumbler.

[Outer Rondacker]

More updated pics please.

[gmsharps]

I’ve found that from 15 to 30 minutes gives me the best results. I’ve tried 2 hours before with the brass looking worse than when I put it in. Just my take

Gmsharps

[Evoken]

310697
Here it is after I just unloaded it. Real clean and shiny, but has a more copper look to it than yellow brass. Same thing, ones on the right are ready to be cleaned.

I have just the pins running in the tumbler now with hot water and purple power degreaser, we shall see if that clears the drum up.

Once the brass dries I will run it in some fresh walnut and brass polish. I find doing this keeps it shiny for storage. The polish also seems like it slicks em up for loading.

[pertnear]

It is not the pins degrading, it's that they & the tumbling container are dirty. Take your pins, add hot water to the container and add a degreaser like Simple Green tumble for an hour & repeat until it the water comes out clean. How much citric acid are you using? The citric acid is just to counter hard water, you only need a little. Too much soap will also leave residue on the pins & tumbler.

^^^ THIS ^^^^

Check out this Utube.


https://youtu.be/PPqK7yN0-4o

[Misery-Whip]

Im still using corn cob and a light abrasive car wax in a vibrating bowl. But ive noticed that there are magnets sold to sort the pins from brass, and while a high grade of stainless such as 304L is not magnetic, this means the pins being sold are (1) a low grade of stainless steel or (2) that they were able to electro plate a stainless jacket over a base material. And this is common practice these days just look at the flatware Target is trying to sell these days.

The OP did mention they were the cheapest he could find so im suspect of (2). I suggest the original poster take a shot glass of 50 or so pins and a half a shot of your washing solution and let them sit over night and see if you get darkened water in the morning.

[NyFirefighter357]

Best practice is a one hour tumble, dump the water and and new water & solution. I now use car wash soap with wax & a dash of citric acid. First wash Dawn & citric acid

[Evoken]

^^^ THIS ^^^^

Check out this Utube.


https://youtu.be/PPqK7yN0-4o

Good video, interesting indeed. It looks like I'm on the right track cleaning the drum with the purple stuff based on this fellas video. I will report how it looks when I clean it out. The drum did have some of the black stuff on the sides.

[NyFirefighter357]

Good morning gents,

I have been using one of the small rotary tumblers with pins, dawn, and food grade citric for some time now. I believe my pins have worn out. Not rounded or flattened, but they are bleeding the nickel out of the pins themselves.

Last few times I used it I noticed the brass was just not coming clean and had a dingey dark color to it. Now this is uniform and they look clean, just dingey. So, I had a batch of 5.56 that I let go all night. Wow and yuck. Lots of black goop came out of the tumbler and the brass looks almost nickel washed.

This media is most definitely the cheapest I could find and fairly well used. I've had it for at least 3 years and used it for hundred if not a thousand cycles. I have the brass in the tumbler now minus pins to see if I can get it cleaned up.

Has anyone seen this before? What the heck is going on here? My only thought is the pins are degrading. The brass was not that dirty before it went in.

My cousin is a jeweler and they use a similar process to clean jewelry except the medial is several shapes & not sharp. They use a powdered soap like dishwasher detergent that doesn't foam & conditions the water. They call it burnishing. The soap is called Burnishing Compound Powder. I have this media as well and use it to clean jewelry. https://jetsinc.com/polishing-and-finishing/tumblers-and-media/stainless-steel-shot-tumbling-media-jewelers-mix-tumbler-finishing-1-pound-mixed/ It isn't the sharpness of the pins that clean it's the rubbing again each other. If you look at the picture of that media it's all shapes and sizes to rub the nooks & crannies. He has 40+ year of burnishing jewelry, I have learned the processes through him as well as wet tumbling brass myself and through this forum. The media will last a lifetime if cared for.

[pertnear]

By personal experience, go LITE on the lemishine. A little is good, a little more is bad.....

[mdi]

My first thought was the citric acid wad "attacking", degrading the stainless steel. But I tried wet tumbling an few years ago and found it not worth my time nor did it fit my reloading lifestyle...

[lightman]

Every once in a while I'll get a batch of brass out of the tumbler thats grey colored. I'll tumble my pins in Dawn for a couple of hours and rinse them. Problem solved until it happens again. I tumble my brass with ArmorAll Wash and Wax with a 40S&W case of LemiShine for 2 hours.

[M-Tecs]

As others have stated the tumbler drum and pins need a good cleaning.

[Evoken]

Cleaning the pins and drum most definitely helped. The water was black coming out of it. I have a fresh batch of brass in there now. I changed it up a bit to see if it helps, much less acid and I pilfered a splash of laundry juice from the Mrs.

The other brass looks much better, after drying it is in the walnut tumbler with a bit of brass polish (zep brand) it appears to be shining up ok.


Thanks for all the help and suggestions fellas. We shall see how the next batch looks in about 45 minutes.

[Evoken]

This last batch looks like business as usual. Cleaning the drum and pins cleared it all up. Thanks again gents.

I hope this helps someone else when they have brass not coming clean.

[fast ronnie]

I just found a can full of wet and REALLY dark brass under my bench. Wanted to see if I could save it. I normally run a little over a teaspoon of citric acid and the same amount of Armorall in about a gallon and a half of water with ten pounds of pins. I usually run for two hours. These still looked pretty nasty so changed the water, etc. and ran them for another 6 hours. Looked much better, but still wasn't satisfied. I changed the water , acid, and the Armorall for the third time. Each time the water came out Very black, but the last time brass came out looking like new. No pink (too much citric acid damages brass) and completely clean. I had to run these things for over 12 hours total before they were clean. I have never done this before and will probably will never do it again as the amount of brass and the work that took to get them acceptable was more than I would do again. Brass is good, but just too much work for the time involved. I should have just thrown them out, but sometimes I'm just stubborn. My usual deal is for 2 hours and rinse in clear water in the Dillon case separator. Any less than two hours doesn't seem to get the job done. I have had twice when brass came out black and dirty. Both times I found a steel case in the batch and had to run the pins a couple of times by themselves to get the pins cleaned up.

[lightman]

I have not done any side by side test but I switched from Dawn to ArmorAll Wash and Wax several years ago and I think the Dawn got my cases cleaner. The only thing is that they were too clean. The Dawn removed everything down to bare metal and they tarnished quickly. The Wash and Wax leaves a protective film that guards against tarnish. If I'm tumbling really grubby cases I'll start with Dawn and then finish with a Wash and Wax.

[deces]

It's probably not pulling the nickle out of the pins but rather out of the cases you put in. Either you are nuking your brass or try separating all nickle plated primers and cases out and do them separately from non nickled brass.

[XDROB]

So after reading this thread. I have to say that it must be the pins. I say that because I started wet tumbling a few years ago. Bought a small Frankfort tumbler and got 10 lbs of pins (don't remember the brand). Started experimenting like all of us. Finally got my mix together. As hot as I can get out of the tap about two gallons water. Two cap falls of Amourall Wash n Wax. A teaspoon of LemiShine. 1 to 2 hour (depending on how dirty they are) on the timer. Two hot water rinses. Then put them in a media separater to get water out. Then I spread them out on a towel on the clothes dryer to let them dry the rest of the way overnight. Here is my results.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230221/d7deec985ff94597b8de6a15323f0cc2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230221/df0314e397557ae05d6752ee4eb1a98b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230221/7239b7d63c96081ec3fd072812409ae4.jpg

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[Xathane]

I have been struggling with this issue for a while now and using a process of elimination to determine the cause of my dirty brass. Cleaned pins with vinegar(works remarkably well) and ran multiple cycles of vinegar, citric acid, dawn, etc in the drum but have come to the conclusion that the rubber lining in the drum is either degrading and thus responsible for the carbon film layer on all my brass, or the lining is impregnated with carbon, gun powder, lead, etc.
I can scrub the film off the brass with a towel or scotch bright to reveal shiny brass underneath but it's extremely time consuming and tiring one piece at a time. Curious if a degreaser would help pull out all the black gunk from the liner. (You can rub a towel or papertowel on the liner and it looks like grease stains) Reached out to Frankford Arsenal but I'm not holding my breath.