Alliant powder 2400

[atr]

I trying to find out if Alliant powder 2400 is equivalent to and can be loaded the same as Hercules 2400.....
You thoughts are appreciated
thanks
atr

[wizzbang]

Hercules was bought out and the name changed to Alliant. The powder is the same.:coffee:

[felix]

Same application is the only thing that can be relied upon. I think Larry Gibson is working on comparing various lots, pressure and velocity for a few select cartridges. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

So far all Alliant 2400 has performed within normal lot to lot pressure variations in a 30-30 and .44 magnum. Testing is done with a M43 Oehler using a 21" Contender carbine barrel and a 8.4" Contender .44 barrel.

I would still like to get some old Hercules 2400 if someone has any?

Larry Gibson

[atr]

thanks guys,,,,
I did some load table comparisons and it does look like the Alliant 2400 is very similiar if not identical to the old Hercules....

sorry Larry,,,but Im holding on to my few remaining cans of Hercules2400....

[BruceB]

My own testing was far more "empirical". I let my guns tell me what was going on.

When my stock of Hercules 2400 ran out in the mid-'90s, my Model 27 S&W refused to accept the same charge level with the new Alliant stuff. It was a minor difference, in that it gave slightly-sticky extraction where no stickiness had existed with the Hercules brand. Dropping the charge just 0.5 grain solved the minor difficulty.

Our Ruger .44s on the other hand delivered exactly the same performance with the new, as they had with the old.

I believe that all this proves is that my .357 loads were somewhat closer to "the top" than were my .44s. Whatever variation exists may well fall within lot-to-lot differences.

[Larry Gibson]

thanks guys,,,,
I did some load table comparisons and it does look like the Alliant 2400 is very similiar if not identical to the old Hercules....

sorry Larry,,,but Im holding on to my few remaining cans of Hercules2400....

atr

Come old CBF bud! We live close enough we could do some shootin' together? I'm not asking for much, a quarter pound should do and I'll pay?

Larry Gibson

[atr]

I went to the range yesterday.....
loaded some .308 with the Alliant 2400 ,,,same loading as what I was using with Hercules 2400....
the point of impact was the same so Im convinced that the Alliant powder IS same as the old Hercules in 2400

(Larry.....powder and friendship dont mix !!!),,,but anytime you are over on Vashon I would welcome your company at the range

[Junior1942]

. . .and a 8.4" Contender .44 barrel. Larry Gibson
Where did you get that?????

[VintageRifle]

I learned my lesson on powder. Friend sold a rifle he used some H110 in. Gave me the remaining powder. 2 months later he bought another rifle he could use the powder in... called up and asked for the powder back.

[Larry Gibson]

Where did you get that?????

Guy I got it from put some sort of muzzle brake on the original 10" length. It didn't work so he had a gunsmith cut the cobbled part off and put a 11 degree target crown on it and the result is a very nice 8.4" barrel that I got for a very good price! I only got it because the price was right and I just wanted to do some pressure testing of the .44 Magnum. Dang thing shoots so good it is a "keeper' now!

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I went to the range yesterday.....
loaded some .308 with the Alliant 2400 ,,,same loading as what I was using with Hercules 2400....
the point of impact was the same so Im convinced that the Alliant powder IS same as the old Hercules in 2400

(Larry.....powder and friendship dont mix !!!),,,but anytime you are over on Vashon I would welcome your company at the range

I appreciate the invite and we may just do that. I understand (grudgingly though) about the powder.....got to be someone with some old Hercules 2400 they'll part with.

Larry Gibson

[leadeye]

I appreciate the invite and we may just do that. I understand (grudgingly though) about the powder.....got to be someone with some old Hercules 2400 they'll part with.

Larry Gibson

I think I could scare some up, how would I ship it?

[Larry Gibson]

I think I could scare some up, how would I ship it?

PM sent.

[mpmarty]

I've got several pounds of H-2400 from 1970. I'd be happy to send you a few ounces for testing / evaluation. I use it in my cast 45/70 squirrel loads.

[Rocky Raab]

I think that anytime a powder shifts production to a new place and new people, using a new recipe and is then advertised as "New and improved, cleaner burning" that we HAVE TO assume it's at least some degree different. They may try to hit the old performance targets as closely as possible, but it can't be EXACTLY the same.

That small degree of difference is likely what is behind that almost infamous and hotly debated Blue Dot warning of a year ago. With regard to 2400, there are some who claim they saw differences in that powder from before and after the Hercules plant fire more than a decade ago. I don't burn enough of it to know, but I can absolutely verify that "classic" recipes for 2400 in the Hornet are WAY too hot with Hercules powder made 15 years ago. I'm not about to risk trying Alliant stuff in my Hornet knowing that, believe me!

[Savvy Jack]

Is 2400 close to what was used in the 30-30 back in 1894? If not then what powder offers 30 grains for the 30-30 to replicate the original ballistics?

Thanks

[runfiverun]

the second 30 is from a powder no longer being made.
don't lament the loss though.
there are much better powders available now, some of the old powders were actually corrosive.
iirc it was called hi-vel.

[skeet1]

I think that 2400 was initially brought out for the .22 Hornet and I think that is where the name came from, 2400 fps. I might be wrong but it seem that I read that somewhere.

Skeet1

[w30wcf]

Is 2400 close to what was used in the 30-30 back in 1894? If not then what powder offers 30 grains for the 30-30 to replicate the original ballistics?
Thanks

Jack,
The original powder used in the .30 W.C.F. / .30-30 was DuPont .30 Caliber Smokeless.
Today, 4064, Varget and RL15 are the closest equivalents. In testing, I found that 30 grs. of either of these powders
will give velocities very close to the original ballistics (1,970 f.p.s.)

2400 was not in exsistence until 1935 and is much too fast burning for .30-30 factory velocities.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

So far all Alliant 2400 has performed within normal lot to lot pressure variations in a 30-30 and .44 magnum. Testing is done with a M43 Oehler using a 21" Contender carbine barrel and a 8.4" Contender .44 barrel.
I would still like to get some old Hercules 2400 if someone has any?
Larry Gibson

Larry,
I still have some 2400 left from a 5# Red container produced in the 1950's or 1960's. I would be happy to send you some but would have to pack it in shotgun shells and call them blanks in order to send it to you legally.

w30wcf

[marlinman2008]

Is 2400 close to what was used in the 30-30 back in 1894? If not then what powder offers 30 grains for the 30-30 to replicate the original ballistics?

Thanks

They used to use Dupont-4064 which is close to the IMR-4064 used today to duplicate that same load.It was among the first of the smokeless powders to come from france.I have a box of those old cartridges made by union metalics i would like to know what the weight of those bullets are but i cant bring myself to break'em down....

[Tom W.]

And to get back to the OP... I've also found that I had to drop my "standard" loading of 2400 in my .44 by one grain so i wouldn't get sticky extraction with a 240 gr SWC..

[mpmarty]

the second 30 is from a powder no longer being made.
don't lament the loss though.
there are much better powders available now, some of the old powders were actually corrosive.
iirc it was called hi-vel.



Ah Hi-Vel a powder I truly loved. I was very sorry it went away. Double base and very nice smelling when fired in my old mil surps.

[Rocky Raab]

I'd wager that 30 grains of 2400 in a 30-30 would have rifle parts moving at the original speed - omnidirectionally.

For anyone lacking reading comprehension, that was a joke. Don't try that load.

[Ben]

30 grains of 2400 in a 30-30



Uuummm, NOT ME ! !

[358 Win]

My old square tin cans of 2400 is about 5% faster than my current production 2400. A half
grain less of the old production gives me similiar velocities to the new production stuff when loaded to equal velocities.
358 Win

[blackbike]

I would guess in a 30-30, 15gs of 2400 would be 1500fps,18gs to be 1800fps. what do you guess 30gr to be?

[Gee_Wizz01]

I would guess in a 30-30, 15gs of 2400 would be 1500fps,18gs to be 1800fps. what do you guess 30gr to be?

I betting 30grs of 2400 would be either an ambulance ride or a visit from the coroner!

G

[Ben]

I doubt that the ambulance could catch you, with 30 grs. of 2400 in a 30 / 30, you'd be going MUCH faster than the ambulance.

[bruce drake]

I would guess in a 30-30, 15gs of 2400 would be 1500fps,18gs to be 1800fps. what do you guess 30gr to be?

Pressure in smokeless powder is not a straight-line formula! Pressure increases in an exponential curve when ever you add more powder to an equation.

NEVER guess at a load. Look at established load data and keep the loads within the specified limits if you don't want to be called Lefty or have to consider an eyepatch something other than part of a Pirate costume.

Purchase a decent reloading manual that discusses pressure and smokeless powder. Barring that, type it into Google and get some more reading completed.

The life you save maybe your own.

Bruce

[Gee_Wizz01]

Pressure in smokeless powder is not a straight-line formula! Pressure increases in an exponential curve when ever you add more powder to an equation.

NEVER guess at a load. Look at established load data and keep the loads within the specified limits if you don't want to be called Lefty or have to consider an eyepatch something other than part of a Pirate costume.

Purchase a decent reloading manual that discusses pressure and smokeless powder. Barring that, type it into Google and get some more reading completed.

The life you save maybe your own.

Bruce

While Ben and I have been making light of the 30 gr of 2400 load, I agree with you 100%! My manuals show 18.gr of 2400 as absolute max and with a pressure of approx 37.5K CUP! I am astonished by the number of people who will shell out money for reloading equipment and supplies, but wont invest in SEVERAL load manuals. Especially when this hobby could has great risks if you dont exhibit great care and diligence. I think the Good Lord that I have not hurt myself or anyone else.

G

G

[Rocky Raab]

To address 358 Win's post: Old powder may seem to be "faster" and require a lighter charge because it has lost much or all of its volatile solvents.

Those solvents add weight to a given amount (volume) of charge, but add little or nothing to the energy level of the powder. So a given amount of powder has the same energy content but weighs a wee bit less.

If you measured out a given charge and precisely weighed it, then set it aside for several years, it would weigh less. But it would deliver the same bullet velocity. Measures that work by volume (drum measures, dippers or measures with sliding cavities) will always deliver the same AMOUNT of powder, even if the WEIGHT of that powder changes over time due to moisture or solvent content.

When older powder seems to be "hotter" it's often because we dispense it by weight - and because it's now lighter, we are actually using more powder to get to a given charge weight. More powder will burn like...well, more powder!

[dougader]

I would guess in a 30-30, 15gs of 2400 would be 1500fps,18gs to be 1800fps. what do you guess 30gr to be?

uh, shrapnel? :-o

[unique]

For 150gr RN and 30 gr 2400, Quickload shows 94k psi and 2739fps along with some warning to not use this particular load.