9mm keyhole

[wolfdog]

Good morning,
Went to the range yesterday to shoot some cast semi auto rounds. Everything was going fairly well till I took my 9mm to distance. 15-20 yards I was having pretty good success. Wandered our to 37 yards and had the vast majority of rounds hitting sideways. Bullet is a 120grn lee TC, air cooled WWs, tumble lubed in lee liquid alox mixed with mineral spirits. Gun is a canik TP9 SFX with the 5.2" bbl and load is 4.0grns of titegroup. I'm guessing this is giving me just over 1100fps and I'm coming out of super sonic? I'm considering a max charge of Win 572 which should put me at 1200+fps with the same bullet and keep me super sonic for a bit longer? Load will be carried for trail walks and camper duty as it's light and has a ton of ammo on board so shouldn't need much backup.

[LenH]

Check the Cast boolit thread there is thread about Keyholing Won't stop. Your answere will be in that thread.

[Screwbolts]

I would think , undersized boolitz. OP, did you notice the thread in Cast Boolits section of this forum discussing the very same thingy.

What ya huntin with them keyhole boolits?

[wolfdog]

I didn't check the other section, I doubt undersized as I'm getting no leading. If I can work things out, I should be able to push a 120ish grain bullet to 1200+fps and I have some spots that allow for 30 yard shots..so there is a possibility of hunting with said setup.

[Thumbcocker]

In my experience the Lee 125 fp shoots better than the tc. I would advise you to look at the keyhole thread.

[wolfdog]

On my way there now, also looked at another forum/post and they are having the exact same issue with the exact same gun/bullet combo. Undersized seems to be the key in that thread, .358 bullets suggested. After reading, if that's the case, I'm going to try to powder coat said bullet first, if not..looks like a new mold is in order..

[wolfdog]

Looks like undersized bullets seem to be the theory there too. T went to my reloading room and grabbed a loose bullet to measure. Noticed they had lube in the lube groove. Which is odd as I don't have anything to do that. I either tumble lube or PC. They were measuring right on .356. I remember I got a bunch of bullets from a guy here who gave me some TCs and some .357 RNFPs for my 9mm. I am thinking maybe he sized them. I cast a bunch of new bullets and checked, I'm right on .358. PCed them and loaded them up. No keyholes, No keyholes with the .358rnfps either. So it looks like I just had a bunch of under sized bullets. I'm going to start working up a load with 572 as I hear TG doesn't always play well with cast either.

[dverna]

9mm cases can swage a cast bullet down if not expanded enough. Pull a bullet and check it. I use "hardball" alloy so I get less swaging than using a softer alloy. If sizing to .358' does not work, try shooting as cast.

There is no discernable difference in accuracy going transonic in a pistol bullet at those ranges.

[wolfdog]

9mm cases can swage a cast bullet down if not expanded enough. Pull a bullet and check it. I use "hardball" alloy so I get less swaging than using a softer alloy. If sizing to .358' does not work, try shooting as cast.

There is no discernable difference in accuracy going transonic in a pistol bullet at those ranges.

I was thinking I may be coming out of supersonic around 40 ish yards, but reading the thread, undersized bullets seem more likely. I'm shooting as cast, I had forgotten someone gave me a bunch of them to try. I'm also shooting clip on WW. So they are a bit tougher. I'm going really light on the crimp as well, just enough to take the bell out of the case. Things went far better today, none of my rounds hit the target sideways, however, the original load still did it. I'm fairly certain the person who sent me them sized them. I will check my email, it was a long conversation, but I think he did tell me one group was sized.

[gloob]

That's a new one to me, having non-GC/PC cast bullets tumble without leaving any fouling. Just when you think you have things figured out.

"Noticed they had lube in the lube groove. Which is odd as I don't have anything to do that."

You probably do, though. Lots of folks assume lube grooves don't matter when using tumble lube, and that a grooveless bullet would be the same as a grooved one. But if you coat the bullet with lube and then run the bullets through a sizing die, you might see this effect. That the lube gets completely cleaned off the bearing surfaces. But some of it gets picked up by the lube grooves, and the grooves can even get completely filled. I would imagine that the same thing happens when you fire an unsized TL'd bullet.

You can also fill in the small grooves on a TL bullet with lube, if you tumble them in a single layer in a smooth flat pan.

[deltaenterprizes]

When I was a commercial bullet caster I had quite a few people that were having problems with 9mm 125gr boolits tumbling.
Contrary to what members here suggest a well known pistol barrel maker , Irv Stone of Bar-Sto barrels informed my customer that the problem is the twist rate of the barrel.
Import barrels are 1:9, 1:10 domestic barrels are 1:16 like a 38 barrel.
A 147gr bullet with more surface area on the driving bands will solve that problem.

[quilbilly]

In my experience the Lee 125 fp shoots better than the tc. I would advise you to look at the keyhole thread.
I 100% agree. I have a T/C carbine in 9mm and had an awful time with key holing (among other things) until I switched to that Lee 125 RF sized to 358 and then quite trying to turn the 9mm into a mini-357 mag. The carbine loves an mv of about 1150 using either Bullseye or Unique and is now "minute of pop can" out to 120 yards with iron sights. It speaks with authority and a satisfying thump on coyotes out to 150 yards. Ballistically, at 125 yards that carbine is similar at 125 yards to a 38 sp at 25 yards from my revolver.
It took a while but I learned not to ask the cartridge to be something it isn't meant to be.

[wolfdog]

That's a new one to me, having non-GC/PC cast bullets tumble without leaving any fouling. Just when you think you have things figured out.

"Noticed they had lube in the lube groove. Which is odd as I don't have anything to do that."

You probably do, though. Lots of folks assume lube grooves don't matter when using tumble lube, and that a grooveless bullet would be the same as a grooved one. But if you coat the bullet with lube and then run the bullets through a sizing die, you might see this effect. That the lube gets completely cleaned off the bearing surfaces. But some of it gets picked up by the lube grooves, and the grooves can even get completely filled. I would imagine that the same thing happens when you fire an unsized TL'd bullet.

You can also fill in the small grooves on a TL bullet with lube, if you tumble them in a single layer in a smooth flat pan.

This is a non-TL bullet design and other than for my GC 35rem bullets I don't have a sizer. Also, I use LLA which is dark brown and this is white. Lastly, remember the gentleman sending me the bag of bullets and me loading a bunch, and setting them aside. I has always fired them from a Hellcat with a 3" bbl at 10 yards and under, so never worried about performance at range. Now that I have the Canik I was stretching it's legs a little bit. I had only fired about 5 rounds in the barrel when I noticed the tumbling then stopped to figure it out. Yesterday I was trying to empty the brass a bit and got pretty good leading at that point (probably 100 rounds instead of 5). I will PC them and see what they do today. But if not, I may have to switch bullet molds. The 125 seems an option but is there anything heavier in a .358 diam. by lee I could consider?

[wolfdog]

I 100% agree. I have a T/C carbine in 9mm and had an awful time with key holing (among other things) until I switched to that Lee 125 RF sized to 358 and then quite trying to turn the 9mm into a mini-357 mag. The carbine loves an mv of about 1150 using either Bullseye or Unique and is now "minute of pop can" out to 120 yards with iron sights. It speaks with authority and a satisfying thump on coyotes out to 150 yards. Ballistically, at 125 yards that carbine is similar at 125 yards to a 38 sp at 25 yards from my revolver.
It took a while but I learned not to ask the cartridge to be something it isn't meant to be.

There is a load with 572 and a 124grn bullet breaking 1200fps...mini 357mag indeed :). There is a load for 160grn bullets on Hodgdon's website. But man those 158grn .358s don't leave a lot of room for powder..I would want to do a bit more research before trying it. Still 158grn bullet at 900 fps seems nice...

[wolfdog]

When I was a commercial bullet caster I had quite a few people that were having problems with 9mm 125gr boolits tumbling.
Contrary to what members here suggest a well known pistol barrel maker , Irv Stone of Bar-Sto barrels informed my customer that the problem is the twist rate of the barrel.
Import barrels are 1:9, 1:10 domestic barrels are 1:16 like a 38 barrel.
A 147gr bullet with more surface area on the driving bands will solve that problem.
So I could be having more than one issue, outstanding. Lol, well, more chances to empty brass at the range, can't complain.

[gloob]

^To throw a monkey wrench into this, all of my 9mm's have a twist rate of about 1:9 to 1:10, including original Glock 9mm barrels and aftermarket 9mm barrels made in the USA. They shoot 124 TL bullets just fine, even with soft, unquenched bullets.

The idea that twist rate causes fouling or keyholing (b/c of the bullet "tearing out" or "skidding") are possibly off base. I have seen the 9mm twist rate villianized for being too fast in many guns, and that harder bullets are required compared to other calibers of similar pressure/velocity. But harder bullets also reduce another major issue with 9mm, which causes fouling and keyholing. Case-swaging.

As far as keyholing due to too fast a twist rate, I don't believe a twist rate can be too fast (to stabilize... it might explode or "skid" if you went crazy high). A bullet that spins faster than needed will still be stable. It's when the twist rate is too low for the bullet that it keyholes.

[wolfdog]

Shot some 120grn TC, PC bullets today with 572. had about a 2" group at 10 yards. Some of the bullets are hitting the rifling just a bit if they are PCed but the TL bullets do not. So I plan to set the PC bullets back just a bit. Tried some 158grn 357mag bullets as well. Accuracy was good, but they ram directly into the feed ramp about 10% of the time. Also tried some 125grn .358s that were sent to me sized to .358 and they worked ok, but were low left compared to the sights and my 120grn TC bullet. I'm going to shoot the 120TC as cast and see if PC vs TL makes a difference. Over all, great range day. I has 100 of the sent 120 TC bullets loaded and tried them in my Hellcat. They leaded extremely quickly. Safe to say both guns like .358 over .356. Over all, this is just a fun project and I'm enjoying the experimentation. As a side note, if anyone shoots 38-55 Win, PM me. Hodgdon just sent me some new reloading data and I can forward it, lots of new powders being used and really opens up some options.

[MT Gianni]

Dog, I'm reading that you're considering a max charge of 572 so assuming you are shooting a mid range load? You're not one to quit on things but I hate that mold in the TL style. The conventional isn't that different from the venerated 356402 which followed the original German military design. It looks like PC is changing the rifling engagement so that's a good thing.

[trapper9260]

Seat a boolit in the case and then pull it and see what it comes to , if it is under then what is needed . What I done is I have one gun that take .358 that it shoot best for it is a 9mm and needs a bigger boolit , what I done is I use the expander and seating die for 357 mag /38 spl to finish load the round and it all come to what I needed. Also you will not have to worry about swage the boolit down for what the BHN is. You can shoot what you like that way.

[gloob]

^ That would be so satisfying to see. I can't imagine how any carbide 9mm die, set per the norm of shell holder kissing or even just close proximity with the mouth of the die, would not result in at least some case swaging of any sub 22 BHN 124+ grain bullet seated anywhere close to SAAMI max, in just about any commercial 9mm case.

But when your gun shoots good enough, because you changed size or hardness, most people just tend to stop there. And I can't blame them. Took me a year or two and and over a thousand smoky, innaccurate, bore-fouling rounds before I came around and bothered to check for case swaging. And that's with a Glock. Guns with much shorter leades probably shoot slightly case swaged bullets good enough to barely notice any problem unless you're shooting really long range or off a bench rest. And if it works, it isn't really broke. But after measuring the base of a pulled 358 bullet at 352, I can't even stand the thought of not fixing that.

[waksupi]

Just a thought from loading .45 ACP. Seat the bullets, then crimp in a separate step.

[popper]

non-GC/PC cast bullets tumble without leaving any fouling.
Not surprised. I shot some very soft 'undersized' from 40sw, Alox lubed. Barrel looked clean. Conclusion - some rnds hit sideways, but a couple more rnds cleaned the fowling/leading from the barrel. Then the bullets hit normal. Then more keyholing. Yea, soft almost pure got undersized as the lead doesn't have any memory/springback. I size my 9mm 357 PCd. No problem. Had a problem with the 40 couple months ago shooting at a dueling tree @ 25 yds. Hardly got any hits, SIL finished up my ammo, same problem, about 100 rnds. That load does good @ 7 yds on paper! Strange stuff happens.

[wolfdog]

I'm tumble lubing but I have the conventional style, sorry if I wrote that poorly. I generally dislike the TL designs. I do have one TL bullet in .357mag that shoots ok from one of my revolvers, but other than that, I've avoided them.

[wolfdog]

Sounds like I need to check for case swaging too..will do!

[gloob]

non-GC/PC cast bullets tumble without leaving any fouling.
I shot some very soft 'undersized' from 40sw, Alox lubed. Barrel looked clean. Conclusion - some rnds hit sideways, but a couple more rnds cleaned the fowling/leading from the barrel. Then the bullets hit normal. Then more keyholing.

Hmm... the bullets that were keyholing might have fouled, and maybe the bullets that flew true were actually cleaning out the bore?

You mentioned 40 SW. I have found my 40 SW chambers are all very tight (compared to the average 9mm pistol, every other caliber has a tight chamber, lol). And I found at least two headstamps of brass that are too thick for cast bullets in my guns. This isn't about expanding. Even if you properly sized/expanded the case for your bullet, the brass would be so thick that you need a slight taper crimp to get it in the chamber, then there'd be no room for it to open back up. So the bullet would measure fine if you pulled it. But when you fire it, that's when it would be case-swaged, by the mouth of the case.

So I propose one possible theory that your mixed brass was causing some of your bullets to be swaged undersized at the time of firing.

The thickest headstamp I have found in 40SW is PMC. Second worst is Fiocchi. I have turned down the case mouths on some of these cases and that fixes the problem. It's only the very last 1/8" tops, probably just a 1/16", of the mouth that is a problem in my chambers.

When making my "lubri-luber," I found my 40 chambers are so tight I can't even get a cast bullet into my fired cases. I bet I could reload 40SW without even sizing.

I might have never figured out the problem, except I bought a Lee taper crimp die in 40. The offending headstamps would have a tight squeeze through the mouth of the die, scraping and scratching the brass over the area of the bullet, on those 2 thickest headstamps. The rest of my brass cleared the mouth of that die without touching. Well, that's what got my attention. If you take careful note, you can tell by the taper crimp. If the brass is so thick it receives/requires an actual taper crimp to chamber and not just a deflare, you might have this problem.

[deltaenterprizes]

^To throw a monkey wrench into this, all of my 9mm's have a twist rate of about 1:9 to 1:10, including original Glock 9mm barrels and aftermarket 9mm barrels made in the USA. They shoot 124 TL bullets just fine, even with soft, unquenched bullets.

The idea that twist rate causes fouling or keyholing (b/c of the bullet "tearing out" or "skidding") are possibly off base. I have seen the 9mm twist rate villianized for being too fast in many guns, and that harder bullets are required compared to other calibers of similar pressure/velocity. But harder bullets also reduce another major issue with 9mm, which causes fouling and keyholing. Case-swaging.

As far as keyholing due to too fast a twist rate, I don't believe a twist rate can be too fast (to stabilize... it might explode or "skid" if you went crazy high). A bullet that spins faster than needed will still be stable. It's when the twist rate is too low for the bullet that it keyholes.

The shallow rifling made for jacketed bullets does not hold onto the boolit so it does not get enough spin to stabilize it.

[gloob]

The shallow rifling made for jacketed bullets does not hold onto the boolit so it does not get enough spin to stabilize it.

Yes, that would theoretically be possible at some point. I suspect that would lead to fouling. Lead shearing off in the grooves, or the indents in the bullet opening out enough to allow excessive gas blowby.

My own anecdote is a mix of WW and range scrap, not water dropped. Very soft by thumbnail test. Will leave a big dent on the nose if you accidentally drop one. They shoot fine out of polygonal and button cut 9mm barrels with a ~1:9 twist. No fouling, good accuracy.

I know reloaders who knew from decades of experience that you in fact needed BHN 18+ by water quenching, else such a high twist rate would strip the bullet out. My guns don't seem to mind, though.


Now, if you were having bad fouling, and you never knew about or cared to check for case-swaging (specifically in 9mm parabellum, where it is a common issue), you might try harder bullets. And your fouling might go down to near nothing, because this reduces the case-swaging. And you would probably think the rifling is stripping out the softer bullet.

Case-swaging can cause keyholing, maybe because the base of the bullet loses significant amount of mass to fouling, typically worst at one spot on the bearing surface next to the base, and becomes unbalanced? Just a thought.

I doubt you would get good results shooting a pure lead bullet in 9mm, especially if you use a very fast powder. 9mm has some decent pressure for a pistol round. But the twist rate might have very little to do with it.

[GooseGestapo]

It’s the bullets!

You should have gotten the 120gr TC (not tumble lube).
I saw this first I the ‘90’s with the 180gr .40 TL SWC.
Also, the 125gr RN TL does same thing.

Only solution is to “beagle” the mold, and powder coat…, then size to .357”.

[wolfdog]

It’s the bullets!

You should have gotten the 120gr TC (not tumble lube).
I saw this first I the ‘90’s with the 180gr .40 TL SWC.
Also, the 125gr RN TL does same thing.

Only solution is to “beagle” the mold, and powder coat…, then size to .357”.

I did get the 120TC not tumble lube design, I just tumble lube them. I tried several things and here's where I'm at. My 380s, 35rem, 45-70, 38-55, 45 acp, and several 357mags all shoot my cast very well. My 9mms are a nightmare. With the cost of primers, powder and the time invested to play with different molds, expander balls, extra seat/crimp steps etc. I'm done messing with it in 9mm. Time vs results are not worth it. 50 rounds of FMJ 115s here is 14.99, 147 FMJ is 19.99. I'm paying 20 bucks per 100 Hornady HP/XTPs at 115grn and 23 bucks for 147s of the same. So I bought a case of 115s, a case of 147s, and 400 rounds of each 115 and 147grn XTPs. Took them to the range, at 30 yards the factory 115s and my XTP handloads all hit center and 3" groups. The 147s do a little better in my handloads and a little worse in factory. If I stock up on these things at that price, it's barely worth casting for if I consider time invested as well as the cost of primers and lead. So this one time, I'm not going to be casting. 9mm seems to be just more trouble than it's worth. I did however pick up the 158grn lee 6 cavity mold for .358 without gascheck and will be seeing if I can get a load worked up in both rifles and pistols that like that bullet. If so, my only gas checked round will be 35rem. My 38-55 is getting 1700fps with no gas check and no leading. So I bet it can be done. I also picked up 2k gas checks just in case. At less than 30 cents a round for factory, unless something changes, 9mm will be shooting those horrid copper things and factory I think, lol.

[ACC]

Good morning,
Went to the range yesterday to shoot some cast semi auto rounds. Everything was going fairly well till I took my 9mm to distance. 15-20 yards I was having pretty good success. Wandered our to 37 yards and had the vast majority of rounds hitting sideways. Bullet is a 120grn lee TC, air cooled WWs, tumble lubed in lee liquid alox mixed with mineral spirits. Gun is a canik TP9 SFX with the 5.2" bbl and load is 4.0grns of titegroup. I'm guessing this is giving me just over 1100fps and I'm coming out of super sonic? I'm considering a max charge of Win 572 which should put me at 1200+fps with the same bullet and keep me super sonic for a bit longer? Load will be carried for trail walks and camper duty as it's light and has a ton of ammo on board so shouldn't need much backup.

Here is some things to check.

If you are truly pushing this bullet to 1200 FPS then the pressure will be very close to the maximum pressure of 35000. This means your lead needs to be over 13 BNH. Both my S&W model 59 and my Taurus G2C will key hole every once and a while at maximum loads. So if your bullets are .356 diameter and you are pushing them to 1200 FPS up the hardness.

Use a caliper to check diameter.

I like my bullets to be around 10 BHN, but my 9mm's don't like it.:shock:

ACC

[gloob]

it's barely worth casting for if I consider time invested as well as the cost of primers and lead. So this one time, I'm not going to be casting. 9mm seems to be just more trouble than it's worth.

I came to the same conclusion, having no source of super cheap lead.

But I ended up with a different solution. The cost of buying cast bullets already made, sized, and lubed for me, plus a one-time purchase of a proper expander plug makes it even cheaper than loading jacketed bullets, with no additional labor of casting bullets. You also tend to save a wee bit on the powder charges.

An NOE expander plug in the proper size is $7.50-$8.00 plus shipping and handling, if you already use Lee dies.

Not sure if you had tried pulling and measuring a cast bullet yet, to check for case swaging. It's pretty easy to do. :)

[dverna]

I did get the 120TC not tumble lube design, I just tumble lube them. I tried several things and here's where I'm at. My 380s, 35rem, 45-70, 38-55, 45 acp, and several 357mags all shoot my cast very well. My 9mms are a nightmare. With the cost of primers, powder and the time invested to play with different molds, expander balls, extra seat/crimp steps etc. I'm done messing with it in 9mm. Time vs results are not worth it. 50 rounds of FMJ 115s here is 14.99, 147 FMJ is 19.99. I'm paying 20 bucks per 100 Hornady HP/XTPs at 115grn and 23 bucks for 147s of the same. So I bought a case of 115s, a case of 147s, and 400 rounds of each 115 and 147grn XTPs. Took them to the range, at 30 yards the factory 115s and my XTP handloads all hit center and 3" groups. The 147s do a little better in my handloads and a little worse in factory. If I stock up on these things at that price, it's barely worth casting for if I consider time invested as well as the cost of primers and lead. So this one time, I'm not going to be casting. 9mm seems to be just more trouble than it's worth. I did however pick up the 158grn lee 6 cavity mold for .358 without gascheck and will be seeing if I can get a load worked up in both rifles and pistols that like that bullet. If so, my only gas checked round will be 35rem. My 38-55 is getting 1700fps with no gas check and no leading. So I bet it can be done. I also picked up 2k gas checks just in case. At less than 30 cents a round for factory, unless something changes, 9mm will be shooting those horrid copper things and factory I think, lol.

What a refreshing post!!

I have long held the belief that cast bullets can be a poor choice. With the cost of components this becomes a greater concern. Rifle cast bullets are the worst. I see folks trying different molds, alloys, lubes, powders etc to find a decent hunting load that will give 2 MOA at 100 yards and most likely shoots into 3 MOA at 200 yards (of course people rarely test over 100 yards...people think the groups are linear and cast bullets are not). I have never needed more than 100 jacketed bullets to find a 200 yard 1.5 MOA load. And that load hits harder, has a flatter trajectory and expands reliably. I see no point in turning a .308 into a .30/30, or less, for the few head of game I harvest. And I have no need to plink with cast bullets in a high power rifle using more powder and more expensive cases than better plinking options.

BTW Wolfdog, I bought 1000 124 gr XTP bullets for my "serious" loads a couple of months ago for $200 delivered. That will last me years. Not worth messing with cast when it matters. I still shoot cast for practice as I have a supply of primers at the old price. But if primers stay at current prices, I may just buy 115 gr factory ammo for $240/k

[popper]

Gloob - no, it was an experiment with pure plus 1% Zn. 165gr PB TC ~ 950 fps with HP38. Special (proper) expander and taper crimp. XDm40. ~21k psi.

[wolfdog]

What a refreshing post!!

I have long held the belief that cast bullets can be a poor choice. With the cost of components this becomes a greater concern. Rifle cast bullets are the worst. I see folks trying different molds, alloys, lubes, powders etc to find a decent hunting load that will give 2 MOA at 100 yards and most likely shoots into 3 MOA at 200 yards (of course people rarely test over 100 yards...people think the groups are linear and cast bullets are not). I have never needed more than 100 jacketed bullets to find a 200 yard 1.5 MOA load. And that load hits harder, has a flatter trajectory and expands reliably. I see no point in turning a .308 into a .30/30, or less, for the few head of game I harvest. And I have no need to plink with cast bullets in a high power rifle using more powder and more expensive cases than better plinking options.

BTW Wolfdog, I bought 1000 124 gr XTP bullets for my "serious" loads a couple of months ago for $200 delivered. That will last me years. Not worth messing with cast when it matters. I still shoot cast for practice as I have a supply of primers at the old price. But if primers stay at current prices, I may just buy 115 gr factory ammo for $240/k

Oddly, rifle bullets for me have been simple. My first cast for gun was a 35rem Marlin 336 from 1976 with a microgroove barrel. I tried Hornady FTX, 200grn round nose, 180grn Spear Flat points, 200grn Rem core lock and had all kinds of issues. Lack of expansion on game, with the FTX, 200grn interlock. 180s wouldn't shoot for anything and 200 grain Remingtons were hard to get locally so I always had to order online. I ordered the RCBS mold, gas checks, seater, pot, dipper, LLA and some WW ingots and cast for the first time. I got fantastic results on my first attempt and have not changed the load since. I have 2, .357mag rifles that have been a breeze and a 38-55 that I have taken several dear with. All of them took to cast with almost no real work. I've killed deer with all of them with repeatable results. My 38 and 357 mag pistols were a touch more work, but all gave me clear direction and all have been successful. My 380s made me think some, but I've found effective solutions there too. I have a Lee round nose mold that I can cast from that feeds 100% in 4 out of 5 of my pistols (that browning 1911 is finicky with a tight throat). The 9mm is a different beast and with it being the cheapest ammo on the market...I fold, lol. I could probably invest in the Lee .358-125, a 357mag expander, seat and crimp in two steps, seat them a bit deep, etc. But in that time I could have a lot of other things done. I'll buy for the 9mm. It shoots great with XTPs and shoots regular FMJ well also. I'm happy with that.

[gloob]

Popper, check your 40 reloads for taper crimp. Wherever you set your taper crimp die, cases that are slightly longer or thicker at the mouth will get more of a crimp, perhaps without your knowledge. But if you back off the crimp, you might find your cases won't chamber anymore. Therein lies a potential problem with cast bullets. Gotta remove those thicker cases to shoot full size cast bullets in those guns.


Rifle cast bullets are the worst. I see folks trying different molds, alloys, lubes, powders etc to find a decent hunting load that will give 2 MOA at 100 yards and most likely shoots into 3 MOA at 200 yards

Cast rifle bullets are the best, provided you cast them yourself (they tend to be pretty expensive to buy, probably due to volume). Even a few MOA at 100 yards might not be great for a rifle... off a bench. But for offhand shooting, you'll still be miles ahead in both practical accuracy and power compared to shooting a pistol offhand. Heck, I can make a cast 223 bullet with 4 recovered .22 airgun pellets. Add a gas check, and it'll shoot 1800 fps without any lino or hardening.

Additionally, you can send cast rifle bullets with a massive range of powders. Any pistol powder or any fast to medium rifle powder will send a cast rifle bullet. You can even use super slow rifle powders with duplex loading.

[GooseGestapo]

I heartily recommend RMR bullets. rmrbullets.com Jakes prices include shipping and quality is unsurpassed.
Eley USA is using his bullets for loading their factory ammo. His prices for jacketed are often less than for competitors cast bullets.
Good luck!

[wolfdog]

I heartily recommend RMR bullets. rmrbullets.com Jakes prices include shipping and quality is unsurpassed.
Eley USA is using his bullets for loading their factory ammo. His prices for jacketed are often less than for competitors cast bullets.
Good luck!

Locally I can get 115 FMJ for 14.99/50, 147 FMJ for 19.99/50, for my reloading, Hornady 115XTPs for 20.99, 124 XTPs/21.99 and 147 XTPs/22.99. Hard to beat those prices right now. Just got a plane base SWC mold for my 357 mag. I'm going to try to work up a load for pistol and rifle that doesn't need a gas check, but I did order 2k gas checks just in case....

[dverna]

Guys.

Thanks for the lead on RMR bullets. Just ordered 1000 124 gr 9mm (Nuke) bullets to try, $117 shipped is very affordable. I have a couple of Hi-Point carbines to wring out and was worried cast bullets might not work well at the higher speeds. Looks like I should be getting 1300-1400 fps with the 124 gr. Puts it close to .357 mag out of a 4" barrel. Should be a decent coyote load to 125 yards or so,

[popper]

gloob - I plunk test all my cast loads. They all work.

[hades]

I'm curious as to why jump straight to 0.358 from 0.356?


I'd suggest slugging your barrel and then you'd know for sure at least what the minimum you should size to.

I agree with any and all comments about the transition from super-sub sonic having zero impact on the key holing issue you're seeing.

[gloob]

I'm curious as to why jump straight to 0.358 from 0.356?


Serious answer:

358 is more common size for bullets for sale, bullet molds, sizing dies. And if you have issues chambering them, you can size them down to 357 and give that a try. Then buy 357 bullets in the future, if that's what works best. If you try 357 bullets and they work good enough, you still won't know if 358 wouldn't work better unless you do a chamber cast.

You don't always want to limit your bullet to 1 thous over groove size in most firearms that aren't revolvers. That's not a magic formula to get the best accuracy. (And even with revolvers, a lot of shooters go way over bore size in order to adequately fill the cylinder throats, versus going 1 thous over groove.) But there are definite and immediate benefits of trying to achieve within 1 thous under leade size; less lube smoke in rifles and locked breech semiauto pistols; usually better accuracy and/or higher velocities without fouling, all else equal (if for no other reason than you'll have more of the lube on the bullet, rather than shooting out the muzzle partly burned in a cloud of smoke). Only real downside is that your ammo might not fit other guns.

So the safest/cheapest route for someone who doesn't already have chamber casting material and desire to do that is buy a small amount of 358 bullets to try. Then buy a 357 sizer, if needed, which will cost less than 500 commercial bullets (and which can be opened out to 358, if desired, in the future). Then you'll know what bullet mold or commercial bullets to buy! If you want to go straight into casting your own, 358 bullets with the correct weight for 9mm will also work in 357/38 revolvers or rifles, if you have those, too.

[hades]

Serious answer:

358 is more common size for bullets for sale, bullet molds, sizing dies. And if you have issues chambering them, you can size them down to 357 and give that a try. Then buy 357 bullets in the future, if that's what works best. If you try 357 bullets and they work good enough, you still won't know if 358 wouldn't work better unless you do a chamber cast.

You don't always want to limit your bullet to 1 thous over groove size in most firearms that aren't revolvers. That's not a magic formula to get the best accuracy. (And even with revolvers, a lot of shooters go way over bore size in order to adequately fill the cylinder throats, versus going 1 thous over groove.) But there are definite and immediate benefits of trying to achieve within 1 thous under leade size; less lube smoke in rifles and locked breech semiauto pistols; usually better accuracy and/or higher velocities without fouling, all else equal (if for no other reason than you'll have more of the lube on the bullet, rather than shooting out the muzzle partly burned in a cloud of smoke). Only real downside is that your ammo might not fit other guns.

So the safest/cheapest route for someone who doesn't already have chamber casting material and desire to do that is buy a small amount of 358 bullets to try. Then buy a 357 sizer, if needed, which will cost less than 500 commercial bullets (and which can be opened out to 358, if desired, in the future). Then you'll know what bullet mold or commercial bullets to buy! If you want to go straight into casting your own, 358 bullets with the correct weight for 9mm will also work in 357/38 revolvers or rifles, if you have those, too.

OP is casting his own though so I didn't think what sizes are available commercially was really a factor.

I've only got a few 9mm molds and they both cast big enough to size to whatever I need 0.358 or less. I'm running mine 0.356 with excellent accuracy across 3 pistols and I have not noticed any keyholing back to 50 yards. Most of my shooting is at steel but if they were key holing I feel like the loss in accuracy would be noticable at 40 yards and I wouldn't be able to hit the plates I can usually hit.


I guess if I was guessing in what size, without slugging the barrel, I'd try 0.357 first then 0.358.

It just seemed weird to me to skip a size so I was curious if there was any rationale behind it.

Because just like you mention 0.358 might not chamber on some guns and thats never fun.

[gloob]

I believe OP tried 358, already. He mentioned having issues with chambering with certain headstamps at 358. Maybe he was just anticipating potential problems rather than actually trying it. Can't remember.

Any rate, doing it like this is a sort of way to indirectly "cast" your chamber and leade. So you would know that 357 is max you can go without sorting headstamps, rather than just incrementally going larger until you shoot fine... with that particular bullet, hardness, and powder charge?

If that's not a sufficient answer, then some of us are plain wrong and backwards. That's ok too, isn't it? I load 'em at 358. My 9mm mold drops them slightly under. 3585 in one dimension, but about 357 overall. That's kinda nice, because I don't need to size them for my guns. But 358 bullets work slightly better if I want to push them faster, or use faster/cheaper powder, or use softer alloy. No brass sorting or even taper crimp needed for my guns.

I want the best shooting bullet out of my own guns, and that includes lube smoke. If I notice lube smoke, then I have a problem. Using the largest bullet that fits the leade will completely nix lube smoke; less than factory jacketed ammo, in my case. If you're lucky, you can do that before you get chambering or brass thickness problems. In some cases, the chamber is too tight compared to the leade, and you can't. Lube smoke is one of the things that prevents me from buying a blowback carbine. If and when I do, I'll have to also start powder coating.

No worries about the future for me. If I buy a tighter 9, that's just a new project to figure out what's best for it. I don't anticipate ever selling my current 9's.

[wolfdog]

I'm curious as to why jump straight to 0.358 from 0.356?


I'd suggest slugging your barrel and then you'd know for sure at least what the minimum you should size to.

I agree with any and all comments about the transition from super-sub sonic having zero impact on the key holing issue you're seeing.

Post is correct, I can not find something readily in .357, lots in .358. My bbl slugged at .3565.

[wolfdog]

I believe OP tried 358, already. He mentioned having issues with chambering with certain headstamps at 358. Maybe he was just anticipating potential problems rather than actually trying it. Can't remember.

Any rate, doing it like this is a sort of way to indirectly "cast" your chamber and leade. So you would know that 357 is max you can go without sorting headstamps, rather than just incrementally going larger until you shoot fine... with that particular bullet, hardness, and powder charge?

If that's not a sufficient answer, then some of us are plain wrong and backwards. That's ok too, isn't it? I load 'em at 358. My 9mm mold drops them slightly under. 3585 in one dimension, but about 357 overall. That's kinda nice, because I don't need to size them for my guns. But 358 bullets work slightly better if I want to push them faster, or use faster/cheaper powder, or use softer alloy. No brass sorting or even taper crimp needed for my guns.

I want the best shooting bullet out of my own guns, and that includes lube smoke. If I notice lube smoke, then I have a problem and the powdercoaters are "right." Lube smoke is one of the things that prevents me from buying a blowback carbine. If and when I do, I'll have to also start powder coating.

No worries about the future for me. If I buy a tighter 9, that's just a new project to figure out what's best for it. I don't anticipate ever selling my current 9's.

Nope, I played around with some .358, one was the 125/358 and the other were some 158/358s. I couldn't get the 158s to chamber and they were just for fun to see if I could. The 125s had to be seated super deep to chamber and still hung up once in a while. Accuracy was meh and I was still getting some leading. Honestly, I have this .357 mag project that's a lot more rewarding. I just put new snake themed Alemont grips on my ruger GP100 and picked up the 158 plain base 6 cavity lee mold. I'm hoping to replace my GC bullets with PB and save a bit on cost. My gun tends to like 158s at about 1400fps anyway so a GC may not be needed.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

A friend was having accuracy and leading issues with a 130 gr RN mold from NOE. He was sizing to .356 as that is what his barrel slugged. At my suggestion he powder coated and sized to .358. Then he had trouble with the loaded round preventing the pistol from going completely into battery. I suggested sizing to .357. Both problems solved.

[wolfdog]

A friend was having accuracy and leading issues with a 130 gr RN mold from NOE. He was sizing to .356 as that is what his barrel slugged. At my suggestion he powder coated and sized to .358. Then he had trouble with the loaded round preventing the pistol from going completely into battery. I suggested sizing to .357. Both problems solved.

It's 100% possible I can solve this. The question is, in 9mm, is it worth it? I'm casting and getting success in 38-55, 45-70, 35rem, 357mag for several guns, 38spl, 380acp, 45acp, and 54 cal ML. I think maybe I'll just let this one eat jacketed. Now keep in mind, I've got a 9mm Hellcat that eats all my mistakes with ease and doesn't lead. It just does it's thing. That Canik though...so picky. But man that gun shoots fast, and is more accurate than it should be with jacketed. I'm going to let this gun win and just stick with jacketed in 9mm. That lets me really focus on my other project. My ruger GP100 has been an outstanding hunting arm. I really want to find it's sweet spot and see what it will do this summer. I hated the Hogue grips and got some Alemont snake patter and this thing is SWEET. Fits me so much better (small hands), had to get the compacts, Pics and new thread soon, maybe this weekend.

[hades]

It's 100% possible I can solve this. The question is, in 9mm, is it worth it? I'm casting and getting success in 38-55, 45-70, 35rem, 357mag for several guns, 38spl, 380acp, 45acp, and 54 cal ML. I think maybe I'll just let this one eat jacketed. Now keep in mind, I've got a 9mm Hellcat that eats all my mistakes with ease and doesn't lead. It just does it's thing. That Canik though...so picky. But man that gun shoots fast, and is more accurate than it should be with jacketed. I'm going to let this gun win and just stick with jacketed in 9mm. That lets me really focus on my other project. My ruger GP100 has been an outstanding hunting arm. I really want to find it's sweet spot and see what it will do this summer. I hated the Hogue grips and got some Alemont snake patter and this thing is SWEET. Fits me so much better (small hands), had to get the compacts, Pics and new thread soon, maybe this weekend.


Up to you, and 357 is definitely fun!

Since you've got the mold already I'd be pretty tempted to drive this home and try and figure it out. There's not That many variables. Sizing the 0.357 sounds like the next logical step from what I'm reading that you've all tried.

[wolfdog]

Up to you, and 357 is definitely fun!

Since you've got the mold already I'd be pretty tempted to drive this home and try and figure it out. There's not That many variables. Sizing the 0.357 sounds like the next logical step from what I'm reading that you've all tried.

I don't have the mold for the 125 flat point. I got a bunch of bullets from that mold from another member. So I have the undersized .356 mold only. My gas check seater is supposed to be .358, but actually sizes to .360. I use it for my 35Rem. I'm not even sure how I would size to .357, would i need a new lee sizing die as well? Do they make one in .357?

[hades]

I don't have the mold for the 125 flat point. I got a bunch of bullets from that mold from another member. So I have the undersized .356 mold only. My gas check seater is supposed to be .358, but actually sizes to .360. I use it for my 35Rem. I'm not even sure how I would size to .357, would i need a new lee sizing die as well? Do they make one in .357?



Ahh gotcha. Yes Lee makes a .357 sizer die. Titan has it on sale for 'sale' for $20.49 right now.


I made the switch a little late but switched over anyways to NOE bushing die system. Little more to get started but then size bushings are much ch cheaper than $20-25 per from Lee.

I think his die body kit is OOS right now though.

[popper]

My bbl slugged at .3565 -- same as both my sub compact 9mm so I use 357 - works fine. Yes, Lee makes a 357 die, what I use. I don't use Lee TL molds. One thing I noticed about 9mm. If you don't push them fast enough, you get tumbling farther down range. 40sw will do it too but I run them hotter.

[wolfdog]

My bbl slugged at .3565 -- same as both my sub compact 9mm so I use 357 - works fine. Yes, Lee makes a 357 die, what I use. I don't use Lee TL molds. One thing I noticed about 9mm. If you don't push them fast enough, you get tumbling farther down range. 40sw will do it too but I run them hotter.

Lol, I pushed a 124grn to over 1200fps, how much faster do I need! I may return to this project someday, but with 9mm being so cheap and me shooting it a bit, if my time has any value, it's not cheaper. I plan to push a .358 to .360 PB either PC or TL bullet from the .357mag at 1400ish fps. The gun seems to always shoot bullets in that velocity well and not lead. And I've killed deer at that speed before. 1500 always seems to be where I start seeing problems in this revolver. I do have a GC bullet just in case there are issues, and I have a 148grn WC load that I've killed deer with that is way more accurate than it should be if everything else fails.

[gloob]

Shhhhh! You're ruining our fantasy of saving bucketloads of money by using cast 9mm bullets. I don't check the price of factory 9mm ammo. If I did, I might buy it.



... just so I can pull the bullets and use the primers and powder for cast bullets.

[wolfdog]

Shhhhh! You're ruining our fantasy of saving bucketloads of money by using cast 9mm bullets. I don't check the price of factory 9mm ammo. If I did, I might buy it.



... just so I can pull the bullets and use the primers and powder for cast bullets.

There's a more fun way to pull bullets, you lose the powder and primer though...

[gloob]

Well, now. The only thing more fun is saving money each time you pull that trigger!

I remember when I started reloading. I bought Berry's plated, at first. Then Rainier's for a couple cents less. Then I bought a box of 356 cast, for a few pennies cheaper. They fouled my barrel and probably wouldn't hit the side of a barn past 120 yards. But as long they went bang and were accurate to 50 yards, I was having fun. And just look at all these empty cases scattered all over the ground, ready to be reloaded!

I even developed a routine of loading one plated bullet at the bottom of each mag, to shoot out most of the fouling. I couldn't have been happier, shooting this crap ammo, at the time.

Over the years, I figured out the case swaging thing. I got a better expander and bigger boolits. And here I am today.

I went through my stash and found some 100ish of these cartridges. Yep, I could still shoot 'em. But I must have entered hoarding mode due to the price of primers. I pulled them all, with a kinetic puller. Socked away the precious unobtanium Unique powder for other uses. Gas checked those bullets and replaced the powder with something I have in much more abundance. Now I can take them out to admire their greatness every now and then, before putting them back in into a box.

If and when I finally shoot them, it's unlikely I will be trying to shoot a golfball at 80 yards. I probably won't even know the difference. I think I was having more fun in the beginning!

[wolfdog]

Well, now. The only thing more fun is saving money each time you pull that trigger!

I remember when I started reloading. I bought Berry's plated, at first. Then Rainier's for a couple cents less. Then I bought a box of 356 cast, for a few pennies cheaper. They fouled my barrel and probably wouldn't hit the side of a barn past 120 yards. But as long they went bang and were accurate to 50 yards, I was having fun. And just look at all these empty cases scattered all over the ground, ready to be reloaded!

I even developed a routine of loading one plated bullet at the bottom of each mag, to shoot out most of the fouling. I couldn't have been happier, shooting this crap ammo, at the time.

Over the years, I figured out the case swaging thing. I got a better expander and bigger boolits. And here I am today.

I went through my stash and found some 100ish of these cartridges. Yep, I could still shoot 'em. But I must have entered hoarding mode due to the price of primers. I pulled them all, with a kinetic puller. Socked away the precious unobtanium Unique powder for other uses. Gas checked those bullets and replaced the powder with something I have in much more abundance. Now I can take them out to admire their greatness every now and then, before putting them back in into a box.

If and when I finally shoot them, it's unlikely I will be trying to shoot a golfball at 80 yards. I probably won't even know the difference. I think I was having more fun in the beginning!

I have several guns I cast for. Mostly cast, tumble, load and shoot to pretty good effect. This 9mm isn't that easy, as such, I will work more on the guns that I can cast, shoot and succeed with :)
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[gloob]

You're a darn good shot with a handgun! Great pics!


This 9mm isn't that easy, as such, I will work more on the guns that I can cast, shoot and succeed with

Having a ton of guns and different calibers is a great way to not have a problem. Kinda justifies having so many different guns, too. :)

[wolfdog]

You're a darn good shot with a handgun! Great pics!



Having a ton of guns and different calibers is a great way to not have a problem. Kinda justifies having so many different guns, too. :)

That's my theory. If I didn't cast, I have no idea how I would feed my 38-55, do they even make bullets for that round anymore?

[hades]

That's my theory. If I didn't cast, I have no idea how I would feed my 38-55, do they even make bullets for that round anymore?

What bullet do you cast for your 38-55?

A buddy of mine bought one and I've been looking/debating getting a mold and casting for him. Idk what to think about the Lee 'boattail' design...

The one from MP looks nice but kinda wish it was a plain base.

[wolfdog]

What bullet do you cast for your 38-55?

A buddy of mine bought one and I've been looking/debating getting a mold and casting for him. Idk what to think about the Lee 'boattail' design...

The one from MP looks nice but kinda wish it was a plain base.

I went with the lee boat tail design, 255-379 I believe. I'm often able to do MOA out to 100 yards on a good day I can pull consistent sub MOA groups, and I've killed deer out to 160 with it. Hits hard, casts easy, no leading up to about 1700fps cast from pure clip on WW alloy and air cooled. I tumble lube in a mixture of LLA and mineral spirits.

[hades]

I went with the lee boat tail design, 255-379 I believe. I'm often able to do MOA out to 100 yards on a good day I can pull consistent sub MOA groups, and I've killed deer out to 160 with it. Hits hard, casts easy, no leading up to about 1700fps cast from pure clip on WW alloy and air cooled. I tumble lube in a mixture of LLA and mineral spirits.

Awesome stuff. Thanks for the info!