Any Colt 1911 38 special MR shooters with a RR

[Longfellow]

Pretty much asking if there are any Bullseye shooters I think.
I’m curious what these guns are capable of out of a machine rest: ten shots fifty yards.

[Cougar Hunter]

I'm a Bullseye shooter but compete in an inter-club .22 league. I also shoot but do not compete with a Colt GCNM .38 Mid Range pistol. I have a deep affection for these pistols and shoot mine often. My indoor club range is 20 yards and I've never shot mine at any other distance.
For several years I've been tracking and keeping a database on these pistols tracking features, serial#'s VS shipping dates, test target dates, box contents, magazines, etc etc, pretty much everything about these pistols. If you are not aware Colt had several issues with these pistols over the course of its production run. I wont cover everything here, but you can read a production overview at the below links. One of the big issues was accuracy. By the time Colt figured out a solution and a production change, the pistol's thunder on the market had pretty much fizzled, arguably overtaken by the S&W Model 52. Colt offered a warranty for owners of the Type 1 (the original) and MKII (Colt's first attempt at fixing the issues) barrelled pistols to return them to Colt's Service Dept and have them upgraded to the latest MKIII (the final fix) configuration. Colt returned the pistol to the customer with the MKIII upgrades and also with a test target shot at 50 yards to prove its accuracy. Here is a photo of the 50 yard test target from pistol serial#790-MR that was sent back to Colt under warranty for the MKIII upgrades. Early test targets included with the pistol were shot at 50 yards and the test target indicates that they were shot in a "Machine Rest". I would post a pic of an early test target but this site wont let me add any more pic's.

310576

[Cougar Hunter]

You can read my production history here:

Part#1:
https://www.coltforum.com/showcase/a-look-back-at-the-colt-gold-cup-national-match-38-special-mid-range-semi-automatic-pistol-part-1.5/

Part#2:
https://www.coltforum.com/showcase/a-look-back-at-the-colt-gold-cup-national-match-38-special-mid-range-semi-automatic-pistol-part-2.6/

If you have one of these pistols I would be interested in seeing it. You can either post some pic's here or PM me.
I'm trying to post a couple of pic's of mine but this antique web site photo tab is not co-operating, however it's pictured in the above link.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Longfellow, ok it took me more than a few few minutes to figure out “MR” references mid-range and “RR” means Ransom Rest. I guess if I was shooting a Colt MR I’d have understood immediately.

I’ve heard of these guns but have never seen one. Not a competitive shooter. But….I do appreciate a precise shooting pistol. I’ve seen a Model 52. Im guessing this niche of pistols is pretty small. But….sometimes the coolest, funnest guns are the ones the common public passed over on the way to grab a Glock.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Cougar Hunter, thanks for the education! I read your Colt Forum links. I really appreciate you assembling the information and putting in the effort to do the write up. Nicely done.

That’s the first I’ve heard of a threaded chamber. I also didn’t know these were blow-back action 1911’s.

[Cougar Hunter]

shooting on a shoe string,
Thank you for the kind words.
These are definitely interesting pistols with quite an interesting (checkered?) production history. I've heard from a couple of sources while researching these pistols that George Elliason, noted gunsmith/inventor and one time Colt R&D Department employee that the threaded chamber was his idea and design, but I cant confirm that. Fun pistols to shoot and as with most Colt's, highly collectable and expensive.

[BLAHUT]

I have not shot this, but did watch a competitor, shoot a 1911, at 200 yds on a steel plate of approx. 12-inches in diameter and hit it regularly one handed, standing. Some guns are very accurate, then again, some people are very accurate, Granted this man was a past / present member of the AMU.

[Kosh75287]

I've only done this with a 1911A1 in .45 ACP, but hitting an 8" steel "gong" at 100 yards is remarkably easy, for the shooter who knows the capabilities of his pistol. I was using a reload that propelled a 200 gr. LSWC-PC at 950-1000 f/s, which "flattened the rainbow" somewhat. From a sitting position, I was ~50% with the first 20-25 rounds. I was closer to 7 of 8, thereafter.
If I can do that from sitting at 100 yards, I would expect a well-tuned .38 Spl. WC 1911A1 Match gun to print 2.5" or less at 50 yards, from a rest.

[country gent]

There are 2 styles if these the colt built were mostly blow back the ones built originally by the AMU and custom makers were a true lock up. The blow backs had the advantage od using a standard recoil spring in the 15 lb range.The lock up needed a spring in the 6-7 lb range. There is a difference in the magazines for the 2 also.

These are specialized pistols, while chambered in 38 spl the only round they will chamber is the wadcutter loads due to length. Even rarer is the few built in 32 S&W long.

I built my own using a springfield armory GI model as the base pistol, purchased a 6" Bar-sto barrel and 2 mags along with some odds and ends parts. Mine is recoil operated lockup and functions feeds 100% with a 6 lb recoil spring. The load for it is 2.7 grns of bullseye, a 148 grn HBWC seated with the button above the case mouth. bell is removed but very little crimp if any. Pistol wears a ultra dot sight on a frame mount I made. With the above load and a 6x scope the pistol is extremely accurate when tested. Its also a dream to shoot as recoil is very light. Cases just make it into the catcher and it just seems right.

Some other things about my pistol. The trigger pull has worn in to 3 lbs over time and is very crisp and clean. The barrel bushing was fitted to the slide then honed to the barrel. I used a set of barrel links using the one that gave the best lock up in the lugs. The barrel wasnt a prefitted one so there was a lot of hand work to be done. It also has a full length spring guide.

[45DUDE]

I have one tuned by Fred Kart in the 60's but never tried a RR; I can do a 10 shot 1 1/2'' bench group @ 25 yards. They need the up graded threaded chamber <later barrel> to act right. Mine likes 2.5 of Bullseye. Installing a guide rod let me shoot a low charge. I have a brand new Clark 38 special ramp barrel setup with a Clark magazine and Clark rib if someone needs one. You will need a 9mm .40 or super 38 ramp frame to use it. Here are the photos you requested. <Little over 9000 produced> I bought it from a shooting buddy 30+ years ago that had Mr. Kart build it for him. He shot this on the Cost Guard shooting team when stationed on Governor's Island.

[45workhorse]

There are 2 styles if these the colt built were mostly blow back the ones built originally by the AMU and custom makers were a true lock up. The blow backs had the advantage od using a standard recoil spring in the 15 lb range.The lock up needed a spring in the 6-7 lb range. There is a difference in the magazines for the 2 also.

These are specialized pistols, while chambered in 38 spl the only round they will chamber is the wadcutter loads due to length. Even rarer is the few built in 32 S&W long.

I built my own using a springfield armory GI model as the base pistol, purchased a 6" Bar-sto barrel and 2 mags along with some odds and ends parts. Mine is recoil operated lockup and functions feeds 100% with a 6 lb recoil spring. The load for it is 2.7 grns of bullseye, a 148 grn HBWC seated with the button above the case mouth. bell is removed but very little crimp if any. Pistol wears a ultra dot sight on a frame mount I made. With the above load and a 6x scope the pistol is extremely accurate when tested. Its also a dream to shoot as recoil is very light. Cases just make it into the catcher and it just seems right.

Some other things about my pistol. The trigger pull has worn in to 3 lbs over time and is very crisp and clean. The barrel bushing was fitted to the slide then honed to the barrel. I used a set of barrel links using the one that gave the best lock up in the lugs. The barrel wasnt a prefitted one so there was a lot of hand work to be done. It also has a full length spring guide.

Sounds like a neat set-up!

[umwminer]

Longfellow , I cant answer your question about accuracy at 50yds with the .38 GCNM 1911 in a Ransom rest but when I was shooting bullseye in the mid 70’s a cast button nosed 148gr WC over 2.7gr of Bullseye shot better than I could hold out of the one I owned .

I’ve done a lot of dumb things in my life and one of the dumbest was trading mine away at a Spokane gun show sometime in the early 80’s . Sure wish I still had her .

[wv109323]

I have seen test targets of a S&W 52 at 1 1/2" @50 yards. Most Colts were around 2" @ 50 yards. Colt made these ( and conversion units ) in .38 Special. The Army marksman unit used the .38AMU which was a 38 special with no rim and an extractor groove. Some used the .38 ACP cartridge

[6string]

The Colt built 1911s in 38 Special are simply not match capable from a Bullseye competitive standpoint.
For a match grade 1911 in 38 Special wadcutter the only viable option used to be having one built by a gunsmith. The best gunsmiths for this work were John Giles and Jim Clark, although a few other guys also built some. I think Al Dinan, Bob Chow and Don Nygord were amongst this group.
There were also a few U.S. Military marksmanship unit gunsmiths that built these conversions as early as the late 1950s. (Few people realize how competitive the military marksmanship pistol teams were with each other backthen!)
I have shot several Giles and Clark guns. When they're found in tight & tuned condition they are 1.5" @ 50 yard guns from a machine rest. Giles designed his own machine rest and had a test tunnel under his shop. I've seen a few of his 38 Special test targets that were at or just under 1". His test ammo was a cast wadcutter from an H&G mold (I think sized .357") over 2.7 or 2.8 gr of Bullseye. The ammo was loaded on a Star Progressive press with Lifetyme dies specifically machined to accomodate that slightly smaller sized bullet.
The attached photo shows a Giles with the test target and load data. That's 5 shots in 1 & 7/32'" of an inch at 50 yards. The four shot cluster is 11/16"!
Giles usually used factory Colt 38 Super barrels which he welded up for custom fitting.
310854

Here's a few images from his old price list. Giles guarantee was 1.25" @ 50 yds for his 38 conversions.
310856
310855
Clark did likewise for a long time, then had other companies fabricate barrels for him. Last I heard, he had gotten gunsmith fit 38 Special 1911 barrels from a company called Storm Lake, who would brand them with Clark's name.
By the way, back in the 1960s, Smith and Wesson had a rather discreet arrangement to sell 38 Special 1911 barrels to the AMU.

All this is a little off track, except to underscore that nobody took those factory Colt 38 Special 1911s seriously.

[45DUDE]

My Clark 1911 38 special has a 6'' 38 super barrel and shoots a .356 or .357 hbwc. They are still around but a little pricy. If Clark built the gun they will still tune it if you have a problem. Clark used to make 5 round 38 special magazines out of super 38 mags. My barrel has a chrome sleeve and silver soldered.

[Cougar Hunter]

History shows us that Colt dropped the ball with their GCNM .38 Mid Range pistols. The pistol was pretty much doomed from the start. However, Colt did produce their .38 Special Kit pistols. These pistols that were sold in "Kit" form are not well known by the current shooting or collecting community. Distributed by Gil Hebard (Gill Hebard Guns, Knoxville Illinois) they mostly went to the Custom Gunsmiths of the day to be built into competition pistols. Unfortunately these are just a foot note in Bullseye pistol history as only 604 were produced from 1963 to 1972. Over the years I've seen several built by Clark, Shockey, Giles, into competition pistols using the Colt manufactured 1 locking lug "Colt Kit" barrel included with these Kit pistols. These Kit pistols were not blow back operated like the GCNM .38 Mid Range pistols. I know Gary (45DUDE) and I both have Colt .38 Special Kit pistols, both built by Clark Custom Guns. Gary's is a 6" "Long Slide" and mine is a standard 5" version with a Bo-Mar 1/2 rib rear sight with undercut Patridge front sight. I also have a John Giles built pistol with an extended front sight that was built using a converted (1974) Colt .38 Super Government Model pistol.

Colt .38 Special Kit pistol (1966) built by Clark Custom Guns into their Model 61-S "Bullseye" pistol
https://i.imgur.com/FHl21Hz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/guGqtSM.jpg

Giles .45 Shop, .38 Special conversion using a Colt .38 Super Government Model (1974) and converted Colt .38 Super magazine for .38 Special wadcutter. (This was my first 5 shots out of this pistol when I had just received it and without touching the rear sight-It continues to be an excellent shooter).
https://i.imgur.com/IgSai8U.jpg

[45DUDE]

Cougar Hunter's 38 has lead an easier life than mine. Built in 1967.

[fc60]

Greetings,

I had a Colt 38 MKIII (38 Special Mid Range) years ago.

The blow back pistols seem to be fussy about having the magazine lips adjusted "just right". Otherwise, mine was relatively alibi free.

In the Random Rest, mine shot the H&G #50 bullet with 2.7 grains of Bullseye into the ten ring at 50 yards (10 shots).

They are not as accurate as a 1911 38 Special with the locked breech. These guns built by reputable gunsmiths would easily shoot 2 1/2" ten shot groups at 50 yards.

Cheers,

Dave

[Cougar Hunter]

Dave (fc60)
Just to clear up a couple of inaccuracies in your post. You may want to read my linked history of these pistols in Post #3 above. I'm not trying to be rude or condescending, I'm a bit nit-picky and I just want to post the correct information. No offence intended.

"The Colt MKII and MKIII were blow back design"
Yes they were, but there were 3 barrel variations and you've skipped the first one. There was the original "type 1", MKII, MKIII barrels assembled into these pistols.

"The "MR" implied "Mid Range". The barrels are marked as such."
The barrel hoods are all marked the same "Colt .38 SPEC. N.M." but with the MKII and MKIII barrel revisions, Colt added a further roll marking underneath the "Colt .38 SPEC. N.M." to identify which barrel revision. The added roll marking could be either "**MKII**" or "**MKIII**"

"The early Colt 38 MKII had a smooth chamber."
Although you are correct, let's elaborate on this. Since the MKII barrel revision was short lived, Colt threaded the barrel chamber of excess production MKII barrels the same way as the MKIII barrel design in order to use up the exisiting stock of unused MKII barrels. Colt was not in the habit of throwing away usable parts and incorporated these barrels into production floor pistols. As a side note to this, I've only seen (1) MKII barrel with a threaded chamber in a pistol.

Here's a pic of my pistol serial# 6477-MR with it's original "Picture" box. It was produced on Thursday May 8th, 1969 and shipped on Friday May 16th, 1969 to North Silva Distributing, Toronto, Ontario.

https://i.imgur.com/vCqjBtU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/XGCO1ae.jpg

[fc60]

Greetings Cougar_Hunter,

Thanks for the added clarifications. You are a more well versed collector than I.

Interesting that Colt threaded old MK II barrels and did not change the hood marking.

How did the MK I barrel vary from the MK II barrel?

I do know my MK III barrel had a 0.357" groove diameter. Did the early MK I and MK II have the 0.354" groove diameter?

Cheers,

Dave

[45DUDE]

Greetings Cougar_Hunter,

Thanks for the added clarifications. You are a more well versed collector than I.

Interesting that Colt threaded old MK II barrels and did not change the hood marking.

How did the MK I barrel vary from the MK II barrel?

I do know my MK III barrel had a 0.357" groove diameter. Did the early MK I and MK II have the 0.354" groove diameter?

Cheers,

Dave

Post #3 has the difference

[JRD]

This is a very interesting thread. I'm a S&W Model 52 fan and have always been interested in the Colt 38's. I haven't added one to my collection yet though.
I happened to get into a 38 Mid-Range Wadcutter discussion with a friend over the weekend. A result of that was pulling a 38 AMU cartridge from my collection and comparing it to a 38 Special to see how the AMU rim differed. Here's a picture I took. The AMU is clearly turned into a semi-rim. I thought this thread would be a good place to share this picture.
311042

[Cougar Hunter]

JRD,
The Colt GCNM .38 Mid Range pistols are really nice pistols to shoot. Had Colt done some more R&D before they hit the market, theres no telling what they may have turned out to be. As I stated previously, I shoot mine regularly.

https://i.imgur.com/crUqLC8.jpg

[Longfellow]

Great information guys. Thanks very much. I had recently seen a Giles in a local GS with a tag marked 38 Super. The pistol is a Colt which was originally a Super but I think it might be a conversion. If the owner permits me I would like to bring a dummy 38 Special round to seek if this is in fact a conversion. Typical Giles stippling, heavy rib and brazed buttons inside slide for additional barrel alignment.
I’d like to ask the folks here who have a Clark 61 conversion if the slide was machined to accept that large, rear, half-rib sight. You’d have to have removed it to be able to answer.

[psweigle]

So, if one were to put an 8 pound spring in a Coonan classic (that's the spring it takes to cycle wad cutters in mine anyhow), would it allow said person to compete?

[country gent]

One reason the lock up guns got away with the 6-8 lb springs safely was the mags would only accept wadcutter length ammo, With the 8 lb spring and 158 grn full power ammo a cracked slide or frame would be a big risk

[Cougar Hunter]

Longfellow,
I'd be confident that the Giles pistol is chambered in .38 Wadcutter. The barrel in my Giles pistol is marked Colt .38 Super.
My Clark Model 61-S slide is drilled and tapped (2 screws) holding the 1/2 length Bomar rib to it. Other than that I cant help.

[Longfellow]

Perfect. Thanks Cougar.