Keyholing won't stop!

[KeyholeBoolit]

Hey everyone out there

I am new to the art of boolit casting. I went out and bought myself a Lee melting pot and 2 Lee molds - a 9mm 124 round nose mold and a 9mm 124 cone mold

At first it seemed really easy - the heads came out of the mold in the expected shape and I went out to the range to test them. The boolits went though the target sideways. Always enthusiastic, I went back home and did a whole lot of Googling and reading. I figured out that my lead was too soft - it was coming out at 9BHP (using the pencil test). I bought more lead and I ended up with a batch that was around 24BHP. I loaded up 10 of them went to the range, shot them, and none of them keyholed. I had solved the problem!

I went and loaded another 20 heads from the same batch (exact same load, primer and shells). All but 4 keyholed spectacularly. I don't know if it the 10 that shot correctly where a statistical abnormality,but I seem to have a consistent 80% keyholing rate.

So far I have done the following:
- made sure that I heated the mold and the lead so that there are no ripples in the heads, nor are there discolourations from overheating
- resized some of the heads to make sure that there was not an uneven diameter causing issues. From the same batch, 80% of the unresized and resized heads all keyholed.
- powder coated some of the heads which were resized and some of the heads that were not resized. Still have 80% tumbling. Tried a different powder coating with roughly the same result.
- varied the crimp on the bullet.
- bought a 147 9mm mold from a different supplier. Tried all the combinations above with the same results.
- checked the mold to make sure that the two halves are fitting together correctly (no light shows between them when I have a light source behind them). One of the Lee molds did not sit flush so I eliminated it from my reloading. I am now using the 124grain 9mm Lee cone head mold, and a 147grain 9mm locally produced mold.
- I have established that the base of my bullet is flat (although all three molds are slightly smaller right at the base. This is a 'feature' of the mold and not the bullet deforming when it leaves the mold.

Each time I have shot my boolits, I have loaded boolit heads that I have bought with the exact same powder, crimp. primer and case as my own boolits. I have never had a problem with the heads that I have bought.

I am close to the point of giving up on the whole casting thing. Can anyone give me any insight on what I am doing wrong, because no matter what I change, I'm getting around 80% of my boolits that keyhole.

Any advice is much appreciated!!

[HATCH]

What are you using to size them and what size are you sizing them to???

[Castaway]

How fast are they going? Without a crony, what does the book say? What does your brass look like after firing? Have you shot a lot of lead from that pistol? If so, maybe the barrel is leaded excessively. Also, what pistol are you shooting?

[metricmonkeywrench]

With the others, more info needed.

At first guess you are shooting them as cast without sizing and then powder coating if I read right?

Are the moulds marked TL for Tumble Lube or are they traditional Lube Groove type (Lee sells both)

Did you try any without powder coating? (which contrary to current internet lore is not the only way to go)

Are you by chance using jacketed bullet load data or trying to load "hot" rounds from the get go?

Are the bullets being over crimped in the case when seating the bullet?

Many Many possibilities to go over before throwing in the towel. Plenty of 9mm cast shot here using range scrap lead (10-12bhn) with no issues.

PS you can talk plain here- Bullets (or Boolits) is ok, no need for the "heads" code talk to avoid offending anyone

[TurnipEaterDown]

What die(s) are you using to size cases prior to bullet seating?
Normal jacketed bullet dies leave something to be desired when loading some cartridges, and the short autoloaders are in that group. There are dies specifically made to seat cast bullets (larger in dia than jacketed) straight in these cases. It can be a challenge w/ short bearing surface bullets to get them to seat straight. If they are not seated straight, they will go into the barrel w/ a lack of alignment between bullet axis and barrel axis, and your bullet stability will greatly suffer.

[405grain]

What firearm are you using?

[waksupi]

Sounds like undersize bullets to me.

[Sig]

By chance are you using a Lee factory crimp die?

[KeyholeBoolit]

What are you using to size them and what size are you sizing them to???

A Lee resizer, am resizing it to 356

[KeyholeBoolit]

A Tanfoglio stock 1 mostly, but I've run them through my Shadow 2 with the same results

[KeyholeBoolit]

I am using a Dillon crimp

[KeyholeBoolit]

Sounds like undersize bullets to me.

I thought so too, but I've saved two or three bullets from each batch and I've pulled the heads to check that I haven't been overcrimping. They size at 356 after resizing, and are 355.5 to 356 after I've pulled them. I was overcrimping them badly at the beginning so I've been checking each batch

[KeyholeBoolit]

With the others, more info needed.

At first guess you are shooting them as cast without sizing and then powder coating if I read right?

Are the moulds marked TL for Tumble Lube or are they traditional Lube Groove type (Lee sells both)

Did you try any without powder coating? (which contrary to current internet lore is not the only way to go)

Are you by chance using jacketed bullet load data or trying to load "hot" rounds from the get go?

Are the bullets being over crimped in the case when seating the bullet?

Many Many possibilities to go over before throwing in the towel. Plenty of 9mm cast shot here using range scrap lead (10-12bhn) with no issues.

PS you can talk plain here- Bullets (or Boolits) is ok, no need for the "heads" code talk to avoid offending anyone

Are the moulds marked TL for Tumble Lube or are they traditional Lube Groove type (Lee sells both)
The Lee molds are grooved, and the 147 is not
Did you try any without powder coating? (which contrary to current internet lore is not the only way to go)
I have tried without powder coating, and with 2 different powder coats
Are you by chance using jacketed bullet load data or trying to load "hot" rounds from the get go?
I am using the load data for powder coated bullets (I normally used commercial powder coated bullets of the same weight)
Are the bullets being over crimped in the case when seating the bullet?
I keep a few to pull to test for this after I have shot a batch. I was over-crimping badly at first, but I've since adjusted that

[dverna]

First check for leading of the barrel.

If that is not the issue, then size to .357". IIRC those barrels are .355" and .002" over should work.

Just a pet peeve of mine...plus do not call bullets "heads". Calling them bullets will not solve your keyholing problem, but you will at sound a bit more professional. BTW "pills" is just as bad.

Good luck.

[KeyholeBoolit]

How fast are they going? Without a crony, what does the book say? What does your brass look like after firing? Have you shot a lot of lead from that pistol? If so, maybe the barrel is leaded excessively. Also, what pistol are you shooting?

They are shooting around 900f/s through a crony. The brass looks normal - it isn't black or marked in any other way that I've noticed - have just checked my last batch that I shot today. I don't normally shoot lead, so I've been obsessive in keeping the barrel clean (it's quite a mission!). I'm shooting them mostly though my Tanfoglio Stock 1 and some through my Shadow 2 to check if there is any variation from the results with the Tanfoglio

[KeyholeBoolit]

First check for leading of the barrel.

If that is not the issue, then size to .357". IIRC those barrels are .355" and .002" over should work.

Just a pet peeve of mine...plus do not call bullets "heads". Calling them bullets will not solve your keyholing problem, but you will at sound a bit more professional. BTW "pills" is just as bad.

Good luck.

Thanks Don, I'll try with a bigger size.

[brstevns]

First thing I would do is size that barrel. Sounds as if you are trying to shoot under size bullets.
Have you shot any factory loads to compare to?

[mdi]

Just a couple thoughts;
Clean barrel.
I would slug the barrel and size bullets .002" over groove diameter.
I would soften up the alloy to no harder than 15 or so BHN.
Just deflare, no crimp (if possible use a standard taper crimp die to just deflare enough to pass plunk test.).
Do another load work up starting with manual starting loads...

Go slow. Double check everything. Most important, have fun.

[725]

I'm with everybody above. Your cast should be larger than the bore.

[Sasquatch-1]

I may have missed it, but I still did not see what type firearm you are shooting these through. If it has polygonal rifling you may be pushing the too fast for the rifling to grip.

If you think it is leading, try getting some 100% copper scrubbing pads that you use on pots and pans. Use an old cleaning brush with a patch and wrap a couple of strands from the pad around the patch and run through the bore and inspect for lead slivers.

[popper]

Get the correct expander for 9mm cast and size bullets 357. Use a semi-hard alloy. WD after PC.

[DougGuy]

The boolits are undersize. Most that shoot 9mm want to size to .358"

You are not doing nothing wrong by casting. It is a dance you learn as you go. Here is what works: Cast boolit .001" to .002" greater than groove diameter of the barrel. You don't need super hard alloy, you want sorta soft, like maybe BHN12.

Both of those Lee molds have the full diameter boolit sticking proud of the case mouth some to reach published COA. Most current mfgr 9mm barrels will NOT accept one of these style boolits seated to published COA because they have no freebore, and they have rifling running right down to the case mouth. You either have to seat deeper and compensate the powder charge to accommodate the shorter COA, or you have the barrels throated which will let you load a .358" seated out as long as it will cycle through the magazine.

If you can't get to .358" with those molds, try for .357" and see if that works. Depending on alloy the same mold will drop boolits of different size.

[fredj338]

Likely bullet size but could be powder choice. I have seen this phenom with TG under lead & coated lead bullets in 9mm. I size 0.357 for several 9mm including OEM glock bbls. I have yet to get a key hole bullet using several diff weights & styles, 800-1200fps.. My alloy is mostly range scrap, water dropped out of the PC oven, about 13bhn. I would give the 0.357" a try, but dont over look powders. I had a BHP that keyholed with W231. Swi6tched to Unique, it went away. I tried 0.358", no real change in accuracy but more issues in mixed brass.

[Willie T]

You sound like a fairly experienced reloader to me. Your bullet is not getting a bite in the rifling. Most likely cause is not enough diameter. Is it leaving lead in the grooves? If so that would help explain why it shot well for a bit and then started to keyhole. When loading cast, case mouth expanding and crimp are critical steps. Reduce the case mouth expansion to the minimum that will allow the base of the cast bullet to start and the bullet to seat without shaving lead. Seat and pull some. Measure before and after to know that they are not being sized while seating. If that checks out, use just enough taper crimp to remove the bell. Pull some after closing up the case mouth to see that size remains constant. SAAMI for 9mm case mouth is 3.80. If the mouth is over expanded, when you close it up the case bulges behind the mouth. Enough taper crimp to smooth out the bulge so the round will chamber can swage your cast Bullets. With jacketed Bullets it is not usually a problem. A .357 sizer and minimal expansion of the mouth then only enough crimp to close the mouth may be the ticket. With cast and 9mm wall thickness of your brass matters. With cases that are .011 you have room for .358 diameter projectiles. With a wall thickness of .012 projectiles of .356 fit. Of the cases I load, from my measurements: Federal is .011. Winchester i have is .011-.012, Starline is .012. Strarline, followed by Federal were both very consistent. Hopefully there is something useful for you in my rambling as you work it out.
Willie

Edit to add:
My apologies if I missed it but, how did you lube the bullets you did not powder coat?

[elmacgyver0]

By chance are you using a Lee factory crimp die?

Interesting, I have sized all my bullets to .356 and I use a Lee factory crimp die.
I have never experienced keyholing in in any of my firearms.

[charlie b]

...(I normally used commercial powder coated bullets of the same weight)...

...I don't normally shoot lead, so I've been obsessive in keeping the barrel clean (it's quite a mission!). I'm shooting them mostly though my Tanfoglio Stock 1 and some through my Shadow 2 to check if there is any variation from the results with the Tanfoglio

If you use commercially coated lead bullets then you have been normally shooting lead.

If the commercially coated lead bullets shoot well, then I'd measure their dia and size my coated bullets to that same dia.

[Hondolane]

I agree sounds like your bullets are undersized. Try bumping them up to 357-358. That should solve your keyholing issue.

[Seeker]

I'm going to go with....the barrel is leaded to the point that the bullets are coming out deformed. You may have corrected the problem but have you cleaned the lead out of the barrel?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I may have missed it, but I still did not see what type firearm you are shooting these through. If it has polygonal rifling you may be pushing the too fast for the rifling to grip.

If you think it is leading, try getting some 100% copper scrubbing pads that you use on pots and pans. Use an old cleaning brush with a patch and wrap a couple of strands from the pad around the patch and run through the bore and inspect for lead slivers.

A Tanfoglio stock 1 mostly, but I've run them through my Shadow 2 with the same results
Since the Tanfoglio is a copy of the CZ75 (same as IMI Baby Eagle), I assume it's a polygonal barrel. Both my Baby Eagles have polygonal rifling...and I had horrible lead fouling in my 40 Baby Eagle, until I got a fat mold from NOE and started sizing the boolits to .403 and dropped the charge a wee bit.

[MT Gianni]

I had a Lee 124 gr tl 9mm bullet and hated it. It was the worst for keyholing I have ever seen. I hate that design with a passion and was sure that was what I was going to read that you owned. Get the standard lube version no matter if you PC, tl or use conventional lube. I have had good luck with the 90 ge tl 32 long bullet but poor luck with a 124 9mm tl and a 175 tl 40 cal I was given. I think the shoulder gets started into the leade out of balance.

[405grain]

Earlier I didn't see where the OP stated the firearm type, but polygonal rifling is the reason that I asked. Using an undersized cast bullet with polygonal rifling means that there may be a barrel leading issue as well as the undersized bullet problem. Check the bore for leading. If it's present - use the search function on this site and look up how to remove it. I agree with others that the bullets are likely too small in diameter.

[popper]

Jacketed case sizing/expanding die will NOT size/expand the case properly. I use a 38p in a lyman sizer. Squishes the base down and keyhole is result.

[243winxb]

Has the Lee Factory Crimp Die struck again? :shock:


https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/albums/taurus-g3c-9mm-luger.317/

Photos & tips on loading the 9mm Luger @ link

[Texas by God]

I had the same experience with the Lee TL TC bullet in a Ruger P89 as MtGianni did.
Leading(visible strands of lead) and keyholes in the target.
Back then 9mm ammo was cheap, so I didn’t mess with cast in the 9mm again until a few years ago.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gloob]

I thought Popper's answer should be higher up.

9mm cases are tapered, and carbide sizing dies are not tapered. So the case gets squished in a bit extra, towards the base of the brass. Brass isn't playdoh. So when the base of the case gets this extra squish, it brings in the brass above it, too. And your bullet gets squished when you seat it.

To boil it down to one term, you can call it "case swaging."

If you doubt a case is hard enough to swage your bullets, I suggest you pull some bullets out of your assembled cartridges and put your calipers on the base.

Going up in size and making bullets harder will help alleviate it. And if your guns chamber a bigger bullet, I would advise you do so. But one of the most elegant solutions is a proper expander. I use 358 bullets in 9mm with an expander plug that measures 358 with a 362 flare. Also important, the length of the expander reaches all the way to where the base of the bullets ends up.

I shoot soft bullet in 9mm, no problem. I don't like to water quench my bullets, because I don't want to have wet bullets, and I don't know when I'm going to shoot them. Water quenched bullets get harder and then softer over time.

Same way the sizing die squishes the brass above it, the proper diameter and length expander will open up the case a bit beyond the end of the plug. This brings the case back closer to its original tapered shape. So this also removes the coke-bottle effect of loading 358 bullets into a 9mm case. You could also set your sizing die to partial size cases, but then its on you to ensure you don't get setback.

BTDT, myself, with my first attempts at reloading cast in 9mm. If you shoot outdoors, you don't even need paper to tell if your bullets are keyholing. All you need to do is shoot at a backstop 100 yards or more, away, and look for where the dirt kicks up. The circle where they land opens up super quick once you get past 30-40 yards, so make sure it's a good backstop.

[Bigslug]

I never had keyholing, but did have leading from brass sizing the bullets down below ideal diameter. What's working for me:

Using a Lee .38 S&W sizing die to get a little more expansion.

Tumble lube bullets out of the mold at .357" (all of the bores I've checked have been mostly .356" with one .355"" so this seems to work)

Alloy in the wheel weight hardness range of 12-14 BHN.

Finish will Dillon taper crimp die.

Groups very well to 75 yards and well enough for social purposes at 100 out of a Ruger carbine.

[bruce381]

First check for leading of the barrel.

If that is not the issue, then size to .357". IIRC those barrels are .355" and .002" over should work.

Just a pet peeve of mine...plus do not call bullets "heads". Calling them bullets will not solve your keyholing problem, but you will at sound a bit more professional. BTW "pills" is just as bad.

Good luck.

100% agree on the vanacular

[GhostHawk]

Of all the calibers I have loaded and shot I have had only 2 guns that consistently keyholed, both 9mm. One a single shot H&R handi rifle stub job, and a Hipoint C9.

In both cases switching from .356 or .357 cast to .359 the keyholing stopped instantly. Groups shrank from 6" or bigger to coke can or smaller.
I took the handles off my lee .356 124 grain 6 cavity and put them on a .38 special/.357 125 gr and got cast boolits that dropped at .359 to .3595.

Lubed with BLL, loaded as cast and keyholing instantly gone, and gone for good.

You do need to make sure they will chamber in your gun.

Cast boolits do have to be BIG enough. In most cases 1-2 thousandths bigger is enough. In some cases you may need more.
It is also possible for cast to be squeezed smaller in the loading process.

[Plate plinker]

Interesting, I have sized all my bullets to .356 and I use a Lee factory crimp die.
I have never experienced keyholing in in any of my firearms.

You’re just lucky. I have a springfield 1911 in 9 mm that requires larger boolits.

For the OP.
BTW if your sizer says .***. Check some boolits after sizing and make sure it’s correct. Variables can cause differences in finished product.

[Kosh75287]

Just a couple thoughts;
Clean barrel.
I would slug the barrel and size bullets .002" over groove diameter.
I would soften up the alloy to no harder than 15 or so BHN.
Just un-flare, do not crimp (if possible use a standard taper crimp die to just unflare enough to pass plunk test).
Do another load work up starting with manual starting loads...
Go slow. Double check everything. Most important, have fun.

ALL of the above!
When removing the flare, measure the diameter at the case mouth. It should be .380" + .002", or thereabout.
You also mentioned that your chronograph gave you a velocity of ~900 f/s, I did not see the bullet weight specified. If you are getting 900 f/s with 125 gr. bullets, you have room to go faster, which may increase their stability in flight, and solve or somewhat reduce your tumbling problems. If you are getting 900 f/s with the 147 gr. projectiles, you are getting most of the performance you are likely to get with them, and pushing them faster would likely gain you nothing.
The above may seem counter-intuitive to others following this thread. I don't disagree with them. I have nonetheless noted, in my own attempts to get MY cast bullets to fly straight (without resorting to casting them with FINS), that sometimes, more velocity is an indirect solution to stability problems.

MDI, thanks for using the correct spelling of the word "flare"! I don't know for how many years I've used the wrong word!

[Thumbcocker]

All 9mm boolits are sized. 358 here. No keyholing.

[Slugster]

Nine mil headspaces on the mouth of the case. Is it possible that you are over crimping the cases to the point that when fired the cartridge is pushed forward in the chamber, and part of the case is entering the leade and causing your bullets to be sized to a smaller diameter upon firing? Otherwise, I agree with the others to slug the barrel and go 1 or 2 thou oversize.

[samari46]

Got massive leading with my Beretta 92 FS, .355 diameter bullets going down a .357 barrel didn't work. So shoot .357 125 JHP's. Course Remington stopped selling them. Frank

[1Papalote]

First check for leading of the barrel.

If that is not the issue, then size to .357". IIRC those barrels are .355" and .002" over should work.

Just a pet peeve of mine...plus do not call bullets "heads". Calling them bullets will not solve your keyholing problem, but you will at sound a bit more professional. BTW "pills" is just as bad.

Good luck.

Thank you dverna!! Agree and a few added......... slugs, Winny, mossy, Remmy, shotty.........

[Outer Rondacker]

I have always found it to be Leading in the barrel. I had a P22 once do this not even the smith could figure it out. Then I remembered I had done battle with a few flying squirrels in an attic. I ended up pushing out what looked like an entire barrel slug. Almost three inches long and paper thin just like a barrel liner. Good luck.

[15meter]

I don't normally shoot lead, so I've been obsessive in keeping the barrel clean (it's quite a mission!).

I think this says it all. When it's "quite a mission" to clean a barrel, I would think the usual suspects would have to be dealt with one at a time to figure out which is the culprit.

Undersized, underlubed, under hard or over speed.

I'd try as cast to get the fattest boolit. Perhaps pan lube with your current lube. Next, Lee tumble lube over the top of your current lube. Next, Lee liquid lube by itself over as cast might be worth a try.

Or you could wait for the next full moon and see if that helps.

[Outer Rondacker]

Ah did have time to read the entire thread. Ill go with plastic build up then. :}

[fredj338]

I have a buddy who's GLock keyholes badly with PC 147 over TG. He has run them 0.356-0.359, 800-950fps, keyholes. He replaced the bbl, keyholes. I loaded some of his 0.357" over WST, stock Glock bbl, no keyholes. SOme powders just do better with some bullets.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have a buddy who's GLock keyholes badly with PC 147 over TG. He has run them 0.356-0.359, 800-950fps, keyholes. He replaced the bbl, keyholes. I loaded some of his 0.357" over WST, stock Glock bbl, no keyholes. SOme powders just do better with some bullets.

TG gave me lead fouling using cast in my 9mm League guns, I tried a few different cast bullet combinations, which didn't help. I switched to Unique and lead fouling went away. I wonder if TG has a longer pressure curve or something? Causing more Heat and/or erosion?
I still use TG for Jacketed 9mm bullets and works great with them.

[reddog81]

Are you sure the bullets are keyholing? I've seen a number of peoples targets that thought they had tumbling bullets but it was just thin paper tearing.

[justindad]

Go here:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm
*
Slug your barrel. 9mm barrels can be surprisingly larger than 0.3555”.
*
Pull boolits after you seat and crimp, then measure the size. Your brass can swage the boolit diameter down, even if you have cowboy dies. I sometimes must use a custom expander from Buffalo Arms.

[45DUDE]

I have a 9mm Armscor that shoots a plated 124 plenty good on paper. I made some 121 lead .357 and they keyhole perfect. <can see lube grooves and boolit profile on paper> My shooting buddy has a Fusion and a Dan Wesson and they shoot my boolits perfect. I had never fired a lead boolit through it and the first 5 key holed. I have plenty of plated and don't shoot it much. It's just a head scratcher.

[fredj338]

TG gave me lead fouling using cast in my 9mm League guns, I tried a few different cast bullet combinations, which didn't help. I switched to Unique and lead fouling went away. I wonder if TG has a longer pressure curve or something? Causing more Heat and/or erosion?
I still use TG for Jacketed 9mm bullets and works great with them.

No the issue with TG is super fast & super hot. I dont think it plays well with most coatings. His same bullets shot just fine in my stock GLock bbl over WST.

[oley55]

what are the "heads" mentioned over and over again referring to?

[gloob]

No the issue with TG is super fast & super hot. I dont think it plays well with most coatings. His smae bullets shot just fine in my stock GLock bbl over WST.
I don't doubt that TG was the problem. But when YOU load your buddies bullets, you're not just switching the powder, are you? Don't you have your own dies, too? Since this is 9mm, case-swaging is a very real problem, not a myth.

As for the "slug your bore," crowd, there's a significant amount of people who do not have the tools or ambition to do that. But if your fouling is not TOO bad, you might try shooting a jacketed bullet and examine what if any fouling is left. If you are left with fouling just in the grooves and not on the lands, then your groove size is at least larger than jacketed OD. You can also just see if larger bullets fit in your chamber, first. It doesn't really matter what you find by slugging a bore, if you can't fit larger bullets in your gun, anyway.

[Cris T]

My guess is that they are too small in diameter. Those lee molds drop about .356 to .3565. I suggest running your bullets .3575 to .358. And both too soft and too hard will cause problems. I think about 9 to 14 bhn would be right. (But it also depends on the slug size of the bore and the speed of the powder)

[john.k]

Slugging the bore is pretty simple,no need for any measuring tools......push thru with a rod ,and see how the bullet engages the rifling.....if a cast bullet doesnt fill the grooves ,gas will cut the lead and cause leading.

[gloob]

I've always figured out a way to fix fouling and inaccuracy without slugging a bore. Seems to me for most firearms, you'd usually want to fill the chamber and leade, regardless of what the bore would slug to. I've got some guns there's no fixing with bullet size. Chamber too tight compared to the bore. Or bore has a constriction that is obvious from looking at the fouling and feeling with a cleaning rod (revolvers).

So I have never slugged a bore. But I have plugged the barrel of a revolver with a light load fired on a cold winter day. The Berry's DEWC got stuck halfway down the barrel. There was no pushing it through with a rod. It took quite a bit of patience and finding the right size hammer to get it to move.

So I don't know the best way to slug a bore, and maybe it's easy if you know how and take the time to do it right. I suppose you'd want to cast a slug with soft lead and maybe even cut a thin section or turn down most of the bearing surface before you pound it in your barrel. But there's definitely a hard way to do it.

[405grain]

"what are the "heads" mentioned over and over again referring to?"
The OP is a new guy: he only has 8 posts. He didn't know that it was the wrong term for the bullet. That's OK, we're already on the third page of people trying to help him out.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I have consistent keyhole with the Lee 120 TC using Tite Group. Don't remember having that trouble when loading with HS-6. Pistol is KelTec PF9. Bullets sized to .358 and Bullshop Soft lube sized/applied with a Star. No leading. Will be trying in my Sig 365 and P320 as well as son-in-law's Glock. Never had keyholing before. More research required. Subscribing to this thread.

[AndyC]

Are you sure the bullets are keyholing? I've seen a number of peoples targets that thought they had tumbling bullets but it was just thin paper tearing.
I came here to make that exact point too - glad someone else wondered the same thing.

I've had paper tear in literally a keyhole shape, but looking at the back of the target one can see the torn paper hanging down - and pushing it back up into position, you clearly see the round hole/point of impact.

[BC17A]

I have consistent keyhole with the Lee 120 TC using Tite Group. Don't remember having that trouble when loading with HS-6. Pistol is KelTec PF9. Bullets sized to .358 and Bullshop Soft lube sized/applied with a Star. No leading. Will be trying in my Sig 365 and P320 as well as son-in-law's Glock. Never had keyholing before. More research required. Subscribing to this thread.


I've loaded the 120TC with every powder under the sun, including Titegroup and have never had a single instance of tumbling/keyholing. Velocities range from 1000fps up to 1200fps and barrels from 3" to 5". I PC all my boolits and size from .357" to .359" depending on firearm.

[fredj338]

I don't doubt that TG was the problem. But when YOU load your buddies bullets, you're not just switching the powder, are you? Don't you have your own dies, too? Since this is 9mm, case-swaging is a very real problem, not a myth.

As for the "slug your bore," crowd, there's a significant amount of people who do not have the tools or ambition to do that. But if your fouling is not TOO bad, you might try shooting a jacketed bullet and examine what if any fouling is left. If you are left with fouling just in the grooves and not on the lands, then your groove size is at least larger than jacketed OD. You can also just see if larger bullets fit in your chamber, first. It doesn't really matter what you find by slugging a bore, if you can't fit larger bullets in your gun, anyway.

Certainly could be an issue but i had him pull loaded rounds & the bullets were not swaged down.
I have a BHP that hated W231 under 124gr cast. Shot all over the place, no keyholes but terrible accuracy. Switched to Unique, target pistol. Powders can play havoc with some bullet/caliber combos.

[dearslayer]

Quote:
Going up in size and making bullets harder will help alleviate it. And if your guns chamber a bigger bullet, I would advise you do so. But one of the most elegant solutions is a proper expander. I use 358 bullets in 9mm with an expander plug that measures 358 with a 362 flare. Also important, the len

Same way the sizing die squishes the brass above it, the proper diameter and length expander will open up the case a bit beyond the end of the plug. This brings the case back closer to its original tapered shape. So this also removes the coke-bottle effect of loading 358 bullets into a 9mm case. You could also set your sizing die to partial size cases, but then its on you to ensure you don't get setback.

I use Lee dies as well ( also the factory crimp die ) but I would like to know where I could get this particular expander plug. My boolits get shaved sometimes when seating them and I'm maxed out on the amount of flare adjustment.

[Sam Sackett]

Deer slayer,

I believe NOE is now making inserts for the Lee universal expander die, and maybe for the powder through dies. These can be ordered with different sized expander and bell sections.

Sam Sackett

[charlie b]

They do. I really like NOE stuff.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Deer slayer,

I believe NOE is now making inserts for the Lee universal expander die, and maybe for the powder through dies. These can be ordered with different sized expander and bell sections.

Sam Sackett

Yes, and I like the thru powder expanders. They are like the Lyman ones with two diameters of expansion and then a flare.