Results of My Pedersoli 1874 Sharps 45-70

[RSAPD]

I just started learning about BP and been working awhile on trying to figure things out and determine the best load. I think I have it pretty dialed in because of all the advice and input you all have given here. Yesterday, I shot a group at 2.8 inches at 200 yds and 2.25 inches at 330 yds. They were only 5 shot groups as I was testing loads but I think this shows the load is consistent. If anyone cares, this is what worked - 66gr Swiss 1.5 (weighed), 520gr bullet at .460 with .06 fiber wad, WLR primer. Wiped after each shot but still trying to learn this fouling control thing but it seems wiping does produce consistency after I've shot a few rounds. My first two shots were left.

[barnabus]

I just started learning about BP and been working awhile on trying to figure things out and determine the best load. I think I have it pretty dialed in because of all the advice and input you all have given here. Yesterday, I shot a group at 2.8 inches at 200 yds and 2.25 inches at 330 yds. They were only 5 shot groups as I was testing loads but I think this shows the load is consistent. If anyone cares, this is what worked - 66gr Swiss 1.5 (weighed), 520gr bullet at .460 with .06 fiber wad, WLR primer. Wiped after each shot but still trying to learn this fouling control thing but it seems wiping does produce consistency after I've shot a few rounds. My first two shots were left.

im just waiting for ones who are gonna say you should have bought a shilo ...

[country gent]

For quite awhile now the pedersolis have been known for their fine barrels.
What cases are you using? What is the alloy the bullets are cast from?

Sounds like your ready to go win some matches

[dirtball]

im just waiting for ones who are gonna say you should have bought a shilo ...

Right now I only own 4 BPCR's, a Pedersoli, a Shiloh, a Browning, and a Hepburn. What I have found out is that once I get them dialed in the target can't tell the difference.

[RSAPD]

Thanks for the replies thus far. My Pedersoli is a very basic model and did not cost me a lot from Dixie Gunworks back in 2020. Added Lee Shaver vernier sights with Hadley cup and PH globe front sight. Using Starline brass and #2 alloy. I know the 20-1 or 16-1 is the preferred but I'm not casting yet, so all my bullets are purchased and I pan lube them. When I first started shooting it, I shot smokeless to include the Hornady 325FTX load and hit our steel ram at 544 yds most of the time. I knew then the barrel was high quality because i knew it wasn't me since I was new to this style of shooting.

[Don McDowell]

Sounds like you and that rifle are coming to an agreement

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Your loads basically duplicate my own except I use Federal LP primers. Being softer material, relatively hot flame, ignition is faster and more positive.

https://i.imgur.com/E7vhjh2m.jpg

[indian joe]

im just waiting for ones who are gonna say you should have bought a shilo ...

I think the anti spaghetti rifle brigade are gonna have to sit this one out :bigsmyl2:

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Funny,

Actually you never see a spaghetti rifle in the winner’s circle, mater of fact the Infamous Pedersoli 5@200 was never won by a Pedersoli. A Shiloh holds the record group at 200 for Paper patch at 1.336 inches. The smallest Grease grooves group was by a hand made Sharps. A Shiloh in 40-65 won it 5 times for 40 caliber and under. A 45-110 won the over 40 twice. I have the plaques to prove that plus the record group for Paper Patch. Any place the Pedersoli has to go toe to toe with a Shiloh Sharps, they simply don’t win. 3 different Shilohs 6 total Scope National Championships. In 26 years of National championships in the USA a Pedersoli has never, never won a single title.

Hate to rain on the parade, but them pesky ole facts you know.

KW

[GregLaROCHE]

How much space is left in the cartridge to seat the boolit in? Do you compres the powder?

[jonp]

Your loads basically duplicate my own except I use Federal LP primers. Being softer material, relatively hot flame, ignition is faster and more positive.

https://i.imgur.com/E7vhjh2m.jpg

That's some nice shooting from 7 yards

[eastbank]

however there are people who don,t want to sell their first born just to enjoy shooting a black powder single shot that looks like a 1874 sharps and may not be good enough to win any thing with a pedersoli or a u.s. made sharps. my targets are quart and gallon cans out to 300 yards. my target pedersoli fake 1874 sharps(cost 800.00 when i bought it) shoots better than i can.

[elk hunter]

To me the whole idea is to enjoy shooting. If you want to experience shooting a Sharps style rifle and can't afford or justify a Shiloh then get what you can afford and enjoy it. The super competitive types that "have to win" will not be satisfied with anything that can't win. Neither person is right or wrong, they just have different desires and expectations.

[Abert Rim]

Kenny, I remember the late Dick Trenk helping spread the word on the Pedersoli 5 at 200. That's been a while.
As to the Pedersoli Sharps rifles never making it to the winner's circle -- I wonder if it is more because the really talented shooters are willing to put a lot of resources into their gear -- and their rifles come from Shiloh or C. Sharps, and not Pedersoli. The one Shiloh I had was definitely a better-built rifle than the Pedersolis that passed through my hands, but I bet if a winning shooter screwed a Pedersoli barrel into his Shiloh action, he'd still have a great shooter.

[RSAPD]

How much space is left in the cartridge to seat the boolit in? Do you compres the powder?

I pour the charge directly into the case and do not drop tube. I didn't measure compression as I just seated the bullet to my desired OAL but it is compressed.

Before I purchased my Pedersoli, of course, I read a lot to figure out what to buy as I am more concerned with capability than looks and finish. I am a fly fisherman and know this world very well and you can spend a fortune on equipment. I agree with Abert Rim. When you become an elite competitor they buy the best equipment and customize it. And I also figure Americans would buy American. So I assume the majority of elite competitors own American made rifles. Based on all the info on the quality of Pedersoli barrels, I would wager if the winners used them, they would probably still win. For me it was all about buying what I wanted and what was most practical for my uses. Thanks for all the replies folks. Learning a lot here.

[Don McDowell]

With the price difference between an import and the rifles hand crafted by American craftsmen being so slight in the last 10 years or so it becomes a non factor. Plus if the imports had to pay the same manufacturing tax as the USA built rifles there probably wouldn’t be many sold here
Now for a beat around rifle or one just used to drag out of the case once in awhile Insuppose the imports are ok ,right up to the point something breaks and you need a new spring firing pin etc and getting a new one is a long excruciating process ,where the USA built rifles the replacement part is a phone call away.
Then if you tire of the rifle and decide to sell it the import will be worth about half what you paid for it yet the USA gun will bring right close to original price if not more.

But with all that sails and the pizzing contest launched by some early on. You have the rifle and are liking what it’s doing for you, so enjoy it and be happy
But if you decide to do another one do your price shopping carefully and make the decision on and in investment terms

[RSAPD]

Excellent points, Don! Thanks. If one wanted to compete with a Shilo, what is the best model rifle to choose?

[Don McDowell]

I like the #1, but the 77 is really sweet.
I also think 32 inch standard weight barrel in 45-70 40-65and 44-77 etc are good, but when you start getting into the longer cases heavy barrels are the way to go.
But if you are thinking about competing my suggestion would be use the rifle you have and after you shoot a number of matches and get a good idea about what you want in a rifle.

[indian joe]

Funny,

Actually you never see a spaghetti rifle in the winner’s circle, mater of fact the Infamous Pedersoli 5@200 was never won by a Pedersoli. A Shiloh holds the record group at 200 for Paper patch at 1.336 inches. The smallest Grease grooves group was by a hand made Sharps. A Shiloh in 40-65 won it 5 times for 40 caliber and under. A 45-110 won the over 40 twice. I have the plaques to prove that plus the record group for Paper Patch. Any place the Pedersoli has to go toe to toe with a Shiloh Sharps, they simply don’t win. 3 different Shilohs 6 total Scope National Championships. In 26 years of National championships in the USA a Pedersoli has never, never won a single title.

Hate to rain on the parade, but them pesky ole facts you know.

KW

Kenny
I reckon them pesky facts sez more about the mental of the blokes at the top of the board than it sez about the ability of the Spaghetti guns to deliver --its a natural part of the psyche of a competitor to want whats considered the best equipment - and the further up the totem pole a person advances the more easy to justify the extra trouble / expense to get it. Its highly likely that if you could sneak out in the middle of the night and screw Italian barrels on them Shilos you quote while the owners were not lookin nothing would change on the scoreboard.

If what Don sez about price differential is close to the mark then this is a non argument anyway - downunder it used to be about two for one - no idea what the present situation is.

[Thundermaker]

If what Don sez about price differential is close to the mark then this is a non argument anyway - downunder it used to be about two for one - no idea what the present situation is.

There are still some pedersoli models that you can get for significantly cheaper than a shiloh. However, C. Sharps has some 1875 configurations that run in the same price range.

That being said, some people just might not want to wait a year or two to get a rifle.

[FrankJD]

I just started learning about BP and been working awhile on trying to figure things out and determine the best load. I think I have it pretty dialed in because of all the advice and input you all have given here. Yesterday, I shot a group at 2.8 inches at 200 yds and 2.25 inches at 330 yds. They were only 5 shot groups as I was testing loads but I think this shows the load is consistent. If anyone cares, this is what worked - 66gr Swiss 1.5 (weighed), 520gr bullet at .460 with .06 fiber wad, WLR primer. Wiped after each shot but still trying to learn this fouling control thing but it seems wiping does produce consistency after I've shot a few rounds. My first two shots were left.

Considering what you've done with such a "bottom feeder" Sharps, it sure looks to me like you've "arrived". And that's considering the ammo you've loaded and how ya put it all together, not exactly "BPCR kosher" as some might think. Lotta Shiloh and C.Sharps owners couldn't do what you claim to have done at those distances. Just sayin'. Your amalgam of shooter, load, and rifle simply works, for you. In the long run, you pays yer money and you use what ya got. You've done well, no matter what anyone sez. That you would do better with a Shiloh is speculative conjecture.

Yep, the price tag on Pedersoli BPCR (and other) guns has risen quite significantly, and some aren't so easy to find in stock. Purchase time is the other factor. In the case of Shiloh, it could be years before they want the rest of your down payment so they can ship yer gun. Just sayin'.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I don't know why the 'spaggiti guns' are so underrated. IMHO they make the best match grade barrels period. I have done chamber and muzzle casts and confirm the barrels are tapered with progressive depth rifling. The 45/70 and 45/90 measure 0.458"/0.450" at the chamber and 0.458"/0.4515 at the muzzle, a taper of 1.5 thou. The 50/70 with it's 34" barrel has a 0.002" taper. No other barrel manufacturer does this step. Reading books from Mann & Pope, they also recommend the progressive depth rifling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VeZynGoIQo

[Tom Trevor]

Are you sure? The taper should be from breech to muzzle not the other way around.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kenny, I remember the late Dick Trenk helping spread the word on the Pedersoli 5 at 200. That's been a while.
As to the Pedersoli Sharps rifles never making it to the winner's circle -- I wonder if it is more because the really talented shooters are willing to put a lot of resources into their gear -- and their rifles come from Shiloh or C. Sharps, and not Pedersoli. The one Shiloh I had was definitely a better-built rifle than the Pedersolis that passed through my hands, but I bet if a winning shooter screwed a Pedersoli barrel into his Shiloh action, he'd still have a great shooter.


Not with a Pedersoli chamber he won’t. Has to go to a .460 bullet to fit the fired cases, that then gets swagged down in that barrel. They go to great efforts in securing barrel steel from Germany then Broach rifle it. Only to muck up the chamber.

None of you guys are touching on the cold hard fact that Pedersoli chambers are on the generous side size wise. Which isn’t conducive of best accuracy.

Except for their 45-110 chambering. That chamber reamer was developed off 3 dummy cartridges, from a 45-110 Shiloh.:veryconfu I give you 3 guesses, an intermediary approached a fella out of Wyoming for those 3 dummy rounds. At least they got that one right.

That particular rifle has won two Creedmoor scope Class National championships. Has the world record for PP group and was the first BPCR to hit the one mile target, and holds the record for score in a single relay 8/10 hits at 1 mile.


Wondering and postulating replies still don’t refute the cold hard facts.

It’s not about having to win, which is mentioned and spoken in terms as like a deadly sin, on this forum. It’s about wanting to be competitive.

3 different Shilohs
6 National championships
1 Shooter.

Show me a Pedersoli that’s done that.

KW

[Beachmk4]

What is the OAL of the cartridges you load? I'm a bit confused as to how long the loads can be for the Pedersoli Sharps 45-70.

[GregLaROCHE]

Not all import guns are the same. There are some real dogs being being sold. Over here in France, the top competitors really like Pedersoli. I almost bought a 45/110 from them, but decided to get a flintlock instead. I’m on a supposedly three month waiting list. The reason I didn’t buy the 45/110 is because there’s nowhere near to where I live, that I can shoot long distance. The smooth bore flintlock will keep me entertained at 50 meters all day long.

Here is a Pedersoli factory tour. It’s over ten years old and I am sure they have introduced a lot of CNC today.

https://youtu.be/eOo-muzMRp0

[RSAPD]

What is the OAL of the cartridges you load? I'm a bit confused as to how long the loads can be for the Pedersoli Sharps 45-70.

With the 520gr .460 bullet I use, I calculated an OAL of 2.87 for my rifle and that is .01 from the lands.

[RSAPD]

Considering what you've done with such a "bottom feeder" Sharps, it sure looks to me like you've "arrived". And that's considering the ammo you've loaded and how ya put it all together, not exactly "BPCR kosher" as some might think. Lotta Shiloh and C.Sharps owners couldn't do what you claim to have done at those distances. Just sayin'. Your amalgam of shooter, load, and rifle simply works, for you. In the long run, you pays yer money and you use what ya got. You've done well, no matter what anyone sez. That you would do better with a Shiloh is speculative conjecture.

Yep, the price tag on Pedersoli BPCR (and other) guns has risen quite significantly, and some aren't so easy to find in stock. Purchase time is the other factor. In the case of Shiloh, it could be years before they want the rest of your down payment so they can ship yer gun. Just sayin'.

Thanks for the encouragement. I don't know if I've arrived since I definitely need to prove to myself I can be consistent and get out to the longer ranges. My range is limited to 500m and I was able to hit steel. There is BPCR group and range about 3 hours from me and the matches start in April, so I'm hoping to be ready to see if I can at least perform respectably. I'm just looking to learn and have fun with what I have and I feel fortunate my eyes are still great for distance. I find this hobby fun and challenging but I still have a busy full time job and anything more is for consideration in the future. I'm just glad there are guys like you all to share your knowledge and make the learning curve a little easier. If I am able to dive more into this at a later date, I'll definitely consider a Shilo of some configuration. I certainly enjoy this BP longer range discipline but I have several rifles of all types I like to shoot and not much of a handgun guy but I do practice with them. I'd like to start practicing more off-hand as I have been focusing on benchrest and sticks.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Are you sure? The taper should be from breech to muzzle not the other way around.

My bad, you are quite correct!

[indian joe]

Not with a Pedersoli chamber he won’t. Has to go to a .460 bullet to fit the fired cases, that then gets swagged down in that barrel. They go to great efforts in securing barrel steel from Germany then Broach rifle it. Only to muck up the chamber.

None of you guys are touching on the cold hard fact that Pedersoli chambers are on the generous side size wise. Which isn’t conducive of best accuracy.

Except for their 45-110 chambering. That chamber reamer was developed off 3 dummy cartridges, from a 45-110 Shiloh.:veryconfu I give you 3 guesses, an intermediary approached a fella out of Wyoming for those 3 dummy rounds. At least they got that one right.

That particular rifle has won two Creedmoor scope Class National championships. Has the world record for PP group and was the first BPCR to hit the one mile target, and holds the record for score in a single relay 8/10 hits at 1 mile.


Wondering and postulating replies still don’t refute the cold hard facts.

It’s not about having to win, which is mentioned and spoken in terms as like a deadly sin, on this forum. It’s about wanting to be competitive.

3 different Shilohs
6 National championships
1 Shooter.

Show me a Pedersoli that’s done that.

KW





kenny
Hope you didnt think this ""I reckon them pesky facts sez more about the mental of the blokes at the top of the board "" was meant in a disparaging way - heck no!!!

For me (and many others too I think) a focus on winning is counterproductive - the bloke I need to beat stares back at me from the bathroom mirror every morning whenever i get him sorted a share of wins will come. Its about doing the absolute best we can on the day.

I shot a 38 from 50 in a 500 yard prone a few years back with my little marcheno carbine, knew I messed a couple up and shoulda been low 40's (50 won it so there was no chance of a medal but .......) I was givin myself a talkin to as I left the line - not angry cussin - just wake up old feller ya wasted a couple there. Range officer as I wander past sez "what ya complainin about - ya shootin a four hundred dollar gun - you the only bloke on the line not usin a sling and shootin jacket (all shot prone) - 38 not so bad eh? - yeah but I spilt a couple - not payin attention properly!.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Kenny Wasserburger;5534176]Not with a Pedersoli chamber he won’t. Has to go to a .460 bullet to fit the fired cases, that then gets swagged down in that barrel. They go to great efforts in securing barrel steel from Germany then Broach rifle it. Only to muck up the chamber.

None of you guys are touching on the cold hard fact that Pedersoli chambers are on the generous side size wise. Which isn’t conducive of best accuracy.

ok Spend ten minutes and educate me (please)
not conducive to accuracy ?
is it the swaging down of the .460 boolit ?
or the excess clearance of the case neck in the chamber ?
something else ?

Shooting a pedersoli barrelled uberti 1876 in 45/75 and had come to like the fat chamber because I can shoot a .460 boolit in a fired case - no neck size reqiuired and I have not needed to ream my reformed 348 w cases - neck OD of loaded rounds is .484 - (that brass is thick!!) there is about a half thou clearance (.485 is sticky and anything bigger is a no go) using a 465 grain pointy boolit custom cut by CBE - (its the Lyman 535 postel - or close anyway - minus the base band and one lube groove) single loaded of course and boolit kissing the rifling - one lube groove outside the case - 75 grains of homemade blackpowder and a 45thou HDPE wad.

This about as good as I can do with it, 5 shots at 100yards but its eyes (and date of birth) if we looked at a series of targets you see three shot clusters in the groups that says there is more to be had - getting the last bit without a scope is proly beyond my pay grade but keeps a feller trying. I shoot off a standing bench at home with left hand between forend and a bag rest. Sitting with cross sticks might be better??? but I am comfy on the high bench.
310433

[Bent Ramrod]

The bores on Shilohs are tapered as well.

I got the Factory Tour from Bob (I think; maybe it was Kirk and Bob showed me the Foundry) a few years back, and he handed me some drilled and reamed, but as yet unrifled barrel blanks. He pointed out to me that the shadow lines were isoceles triangles from breech to muzzle, indicating a steady taper all the way along the bore.

I asked Bob (or Kirk) how he did that, and he said, “I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you.”

Shiloh is really a fully-tooled-up custom gun shop; comparing their product with a factory doing mass production isn’t exactly fair. The Pedersolis are built to better standards of precision than most of the originals, at least, and can hold their own with any other factory product. There’s nothing standing in the way of further improvement in their products, if sufficient customer interest and complaints are noted and they can be accomplished in a cost effective manner.

In that respect, Dick Trenk’s passing was a real loss, as he seemed to be the conduit for passing American customer wishes over to the Italians. If he’d stayed with us a few more years, a Pedersoli might have won a 5-at-200 or two.

One of our National Champions shoots a Pedersoli Gibbs muzzle loader. If he could find any defects in its shooting, I would imagine that he would spring for one of Lee Shaver’s handmade versions. But he hasn’t.

I recall a time when even the Elect were complaining about and unscrewing Shiloh Sharps barrels and replacing them with Badgers and Green Mountains, and this was well into the Big Timber era, not just the notorious early Farmingdale product. But the factory quality came up and most of the replacing stopped.

I myself have started plinking away at water bottles with my Garrett Sharps carbine again. As soon as Fish&Game finishes their repairs to our Silhouette range, I have a bunch of loads to test in my Pedersoli/Cabela’s Long Range Sharps that was pooched out to .45-2.6”. Still haven’t gotten a Paper Patch load to work, and picked up several new boolit moulds to play with. I’ve kind of been missing the Fun aspect of Sharps shooting lately in the grim pursuit of better Silhouette scores. (At my age, I don’t think a National Championship is in the cards, but nobody has more Fun than I do.) The Italian clones are plenty good enough to take care of that aspect of the sport. My poor record of luring people, who have the guns and the loads, out to compete in our matches is a pretty good indication of what a rarefied, small market the Serious Competitors actually are. And will continue to be.

[Don McDowell]

Bent are we going to see you at the Desert Internional next month?
Good points made in here,after the pizzicato post contest about those nasty competition shooters started. It still boils do head out to a match, run what ya brung. See if it’s something you want to keep doing and then decide what and if any equipment upgrades need to happen.
If rifle upgrade is deemed necessary then without a doubt Shiloh is the way to go when Sharps is the rifle of choice.

[JKR]

During my high power days we used to say that Dave Tubbs could win the Nationals with a 303 British. That’s a stretch of course but the point is, it’s the shooter as much or more than the rifle. I shoot with a friend who shoots a Pedersoli Sharps. Sure as heck nothing wrong with the way that rifle shoots!
By the way, a .460 bullet will easily slide into the fired case from my Shiloh’s tight chamber.
JKR

[Kenny Wasserburger]

During my high power days we used to say that Dave Tubbs could win the Nationals with a 303 British. That’s a stretch of course but the point is, it’s the shooter as much or more than the rifle. I shoot with a friend who shoots a Pedersoli Sharps. Sure as heck nothing wrong with the way that rifle shoots!
By the way, a .460 bullet will easily slide into the fired case from my Shiloh’s tight chamber.
JKR

They sure won’t in my Shilohs. .458 is a snug slip fit. In my bull barrel rifle it’s real snug, probably .0005 neck tension.

KW

[Kenny Wasserburger]

The bores on Shilohs are tapered as well.

I got the Factory Tour from Bob (I think; maybe it was Kirk and Bob showed me the Foundry) a few years back, and he handed me some drilled and reamed, but as yet unrifled barrel blanks. He pointed out to me that the shadow lines were isoceles triangles from breech to muzzle, indicating a steady taper all the way along the bore.

I asked Bob (or Kirk) how he did that, and he said, “I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you.”

Shiloh is really a fully-tooled-up custom gun shop; comparing their product with a factory doing mass production isn’t exactly fair. The Pedersolis are built to better standards of precision than most of the originals, at least, and can hold their own with any other factory product. There’s nothing standing in the way of further improvement in their products, if sufficient customer interest and complaints are noted and they can be accomplished in a cost effective manner.

In that respect, Dick Trenk’s passing was a real loss, as he seemed to be the conduit for passing American customer wishes over to the Italians. If he’d stayed with us a few more years, a Pedersoli might have won a 5-at-200 or two.

One of our National Champions shoots a Pedersoli Gibbs muzzle loader. If he could find any defects in its shooting, I would imagine that he would spring for one of Lee Shaver’s handmade versions. But he hasn’t.

I recall a time when even the Elect were complaining about and unscrewing Shiloh Sharps barrels and replacing them with Badgers and Green Mountains, and this was well into the Big Timber era, not just the notorious early Farmingdale product. But the factory quality came up and most of the replacing stopped.

I myself have started plinking away at water bottles with my Garrett Sharps carbine again. As soon as Fish&Game finishes their repairs to our Silhouette range, I have a bunch of loads to test in my Pedersoli/Cabela’s Long Range Sharps that was pooched out to .45-2.6”. Still haven’t gotten a Paper Patch load to work, and picked up several new boolit moulds to play with. I’ve kind of been missing the Fun aspect of Sharps shooting lately in the grim pursuit of better Silhouette scores. (At my age, I don’t think a National Championship is in the cards, but nobody has more Fun than I do.) The Italian clones are plenty good enough to take care of that aspect of the sport. My poor record of luring people, who have the guns and the loads, out to compete in our matches is a pretty good indication of what a rarefied, small market the Serious Competitors actually are. And will continue to be.


Ask that National Champion what he has done to the lock internals to the Gibbs, it’s also got a different barrel.

FYI Badger hasn’t sold a Bpcr barrel in almost 20 years. I had Shiloh barrel, after 19,800 rounds, 1994 production, was replaced under warranty, new barrel has won two Scope Creedmoor National championships, couple winter Nationals too. In 2013 won both Phoenix and Raton.

I did have a Shiloh barrel that I fought for a few years in 45-70 that had a bad spot in the barrel. It was also replaced free of charge under warranty…

Does Pedersoli do that?

As for a .460 fitting a fired case from a Shiloh, that’s a loose chamber definitely very thin wall brass. Most Shiloh chambers in 45 run .482 at the mouth my old original Shiloh ran .480 and a .458 bullet was very tight .003 neck tension.

A .460 bullet has to be swaged down when it hits the grooves, this displaces lead to the rear causing base finning, seen plenty of examples of this at the mile target.

I am speaking from personal experience and not postulating or conjecture. As of the last 16 or so years you’re going to be hard pressed to find a better barrel than a Shiloh. The internal finish from the buttoning process of a Shiloh barrel is pretty tough to beat.

As for Dick T. Damn shame he did pass away, his 5@200 match was one worth attending. It was a put up or shut up match, I won it twice. My friend from GA Jimmy the Hippster won it in the 40 cal and under, 5 times, with his Shiloh 40-65.
Unfortunately with his passing and the match scheduling it’s gone.

Pedersoli rifles, never won that match. Another one of those pesky facts. And all the group size records, won by American made Rifles. Shilohs or Doug Knoell’s home built from Drawings. I do believe it had a Douglas Barrel.

The era of replacement barrels ended shortly after the Bryan family took over Shiloh, now 32 years ago?

The Shiloh Taper is a due to the Button Rifling process.

Obviously all the Shiloh wins in Silhouette, the 5@200, Creedmoor and midrange but multiple different shooters is just an accident. Yet still no Pedersoli National Champion or a 5@200 winner.

One caveat, my one 2015 NRA midrange National championship was won with my 38-50 Shiloh, since Shiloh doesn’t make 38 caliber barrels it had a 14 twist Douglas barrel on it.

KW

[RSAPD]

Kenny, I don't see anyone challenging the supremacy of Shilos in competitions. I don't mind my thread being hijacked to discuss the differences between rifle makers but I don't see anyone here writing that Pedersoli is better than American rifles and all the winning American rifles are flukes. I think if read the comments, people are stating the pesky facts that Pedersoli makes excellent barrels and can perform in the hands of a shooter. I think the only real opinion I have read is that if more competitors used Pedersoli, we might have seen some of those rifles make it to the medal stand.

[Don McDowell]

LOL, this thing has ran pretty far off the rails already, so here goes...
What a hoot it would be if Kirk could be talked out of some rifled barrels unchambered and some muzzleloading target rifles built up on those... Problem is that would probably open up a big can of worms for Shiloh, and they have their handsfull trying to keep up with demand as it is..

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kenny, I don't see anyone challenging the supremacy of Shilos in competitions. I don't mind my thread being hijacked to discuss the differences between rifle makers but I don't see anyone here writing that Pedersoli is better than American rifles and all the winning American rifles are flukes. I think if read the comments, people are stating the pesky facts that Pedersoli makes excellent barrels and can perform in the hands of a shooter. I think the only real opinion I have read is that if more competitors used Pedersoli, we might have seen some of those rifles make it to the medal stand.

Competition shooters will gravitate towards what shoots best and wins, it’s a natural progression, nature of the beast. And human nature to do so. The opinion you say being expressed is from folks that obviously do not compete, thinking “IF” more shooters used Pedersoli, you see them at the medal stand, unfortunately that doesn’t hold any water in the real world, that’s pure conjecture from folks that never attend national level competition. I have seen plenty of Pedersolis shooting at matches even my own matches, One truly outstanding Pedersoli I have personally shot was a John Bodine Roller in 45-90, it was very accurate, to 800 yards that was the furthest I shot it. Yet the Roller stock configuration doesn’t lend itself well to longrange shooting with all the drop in the wrist and stock.

It sounds like you have your Pedersoli working very well, that’s good groups in anyone’s book.

The only reason I responded to this thread was when Joe said that the Shiloh boys would have to take a back seat and be quiet on this thread, because of your excellent groups.

I often shoot sub MOA groups with all my Shilohs in 38 or 45 caliber. I still struggle with my 40-70 with a 14 twist barrel ordered that way from Shiloh. I am pretty close to that goal now but it took a few years.

My best PP Groups are usually under two inches at 200 yards. That Paper Patch group of 1.336 inches at 200 was my personal best with my old 45-110. That’s a world record btw, just saying. That week at Raton it was the smallest group of any submitted, grease groove or PP.

Dick Trenk, started that match up because of all the talk about group size on the old Shooter’s.com site and Dan T working on groups. The who premise of the Pedersoli 5@200 was to showcase folks proving their rifle and load’s accuracy.
Dick T also confidently informed me that this match would showcase and prove the superior quality of Pedersoli barrels in time.

Such wasn’t ever the case, he even went as far as to create 2 separate classes 40 caliber and under and over 40 caliber. I know the 40-65 Shiloh that’s won that class 5 times often runs groups around 1.6 inches.

KW

[RSAPD]

Thanks for the reply Kenny and I understand your points. Well, as for me, I am not a competitor and just wanted to share my load development results and thank all the folks here that post because it helped a ton. Again, I appreciate the encouragement and comments from an accomplished shooter such as yourself.

[indian joe]

KW
As for a .460 fitting a fired case from a Shiloh, that’s a loose chamber definitely very thin wall brass. Most Shiloh chambers in 45 run .482 at the mouth my old original Shiloh ran .480 and a .458 bullet was very tight .003 neck tension.

A .460 bullet has to be swaged down when it hits the grooves, this displaces lead to the rear causing base finning, seen plenty of examples of this at the mile target.


ok thats some of what I was lookin for - thanks - these discussions usually yield something of value even if its not what we set out to cover at the start.

base finning ? would a solid, neat fitting wad (I use HDPE) overcome the base finning ? or help to?

heres some numbers (might back up some of what you are saying - or not)

my pedersoli / uberti 45/75 is .485" neck - thats a go - nogo measure - dont see it as a problem because of the extra neck thickness of the brass I am working with. Shorter boolits I size .460 and run the loaded rounds through an outside swage die at .4845"

Loaded rounds for my Chiappa 1886 run .484" OD and chamber fine

so both of these are pointing directly at your oversize Italian chamber ? Both guns seem to like boolits .459 - .460 and neither will do well with a 458 boolit (different design though, my .458 is a CBE Postell = different nose profile than the Lyman and smaller lube grooves).

my Marcheno sharps Loaded rounds measure .480" OD and that is a neat deal

PS I was not saying a Pedersoli was better - but in the right hands might be almost as good ? - in most hands (bottom half or even two thirds of the leader board) the "hands" are gonna be the deciding factor as much as the equipment.

[Thundermaker]

You BPCR shooters sure are a humble lot.

1.36 inches is impressive. I'm still waiting on my Shiloh. Can't wait to dive into that project. Then I just have to figure out how to get everything safely to Wyoming.:D

[Randy Bohannon]

I was at Shiloh today and picked up my 1877 ,I am very pleased not many done in English Walnut.

[Don McDowell]

Oh my that's gorgeous.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Mine should be done any day.

KW

[Kenny Wasserburger]

KW
As for a .460 fitting a fired case from a Shiloh, that’s a loose chamber definitely very thin wall brass. Most Shiloh chambers in 45 run .482 at the mouth my old original Shiloh ran .480 and a .458 bullet was very tight .003 neck tension.

A .460 bullet has to be swaged down when it hits the grooves, this displaces lead to the rear causing base finning, seen plenty of examples of this at the mile target.


ok thats some of what I was lookin for - thanks - these discussions usually yield something of value even if its not what we set out to cover at the start.

base finning ? would a solid, neat fitting wad (I use HDPE) overcome the base finning ? or help to?

heres some numbers (might back up some of what you are saying - or not)

my pedersoli / uberti 45/75 is .485" neck - thats a go - nogo measure - dont see it as a problem because of the extra neck thickness of the brass I am working with. Shorter boolits I size .460 and run the loaded rounds through an outside swage die at .4845"

Loaded rounds for my Chiappa 1886 run .484" OD and chamber fine

so both of these are pointing directly at your oversize Italian chamber ? Both guns seem to like boolits .459 - .460 and neither will do well with a 458 boolit (different design though, my .458 is a CBE Postell = different nose profile than the Lyman and smaller lube grooves).

my Marcheno sharps Loaded rounds measure .480" OD and that is a neat deal

PS I was not saying a Pedersoli was better - but in the right hands might be almost as good ? - in most hands (bottom half or even two thirds of the leader board) the "hands" are gonna be the deciding factor as much as the equipment.

Joe, wad of at minimum of .060 is necessary to prevent base finning with a proper fitting bullet, the more generous the chamber size the more the bullet bumps up before entry into the rifling, thus exasperating the chance of base finning. The more the lead is displaced the more the chance of this.

KW

[indian joe]

Joe, wad of at minimum of .060 is necessary to prevent base finning with a proper fitting bullet, the more generous the chamber size the more the bullet bumps up before entry into the rifling, thus exasperating the chance of base finning. The more the lead is displaced the more the chance of this.

KW

thanks for the reply
can I check that finning issue shooting into a can of water at 100yards ? big water - soft container? or what works better?

doing 45 thou HDPE wads at present - can proly get to 60 thou - anymore would need two thinner ones and dont like the idea of that - cant find the LDPE commercially - plenty HDPE via salvage - (easy - chemical drums all sorts of places)

[indian joe]

The only reason I responded to this thread was when Joe said that the Shiloh boys would have to take a back seat and be quiet on this thread, because of your excellent groups.

KW

Nobody got mad and nobody got hurt - good job all around I reckon!

[martinibelgian]

I can only point you guys to the thread I posted on the Shiloh forum with pics of a groove-dia. PP bullet recuperated just about intact, showing no base finning at all.
http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29012. It did have a grease cookie between powder and bullet.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Bullet catch box, or a 1 mile target and recover the misses. To look at my bullets.
8 foot long and filled with oiled sawdust, works very well.
KW

[HWooldridge]

I bought a new Farmingdale rifle in 45-70 in 1981 that had a long freebore chamber. It shot jacketed bullets like a dream using smokeless but would not shoot well with any type of cast boolit I tried - either BP or smokeless, and it tore the paper from patched pills. Kirk offered to rebarrel it for me at half price but I finally sold off the rifle - I just didn't want to change the originality of the old girl. Might try to get another one at some point but I'm not a competitive shooter and only hunt with them.

[Gunlaker]

Competition shooters will gravitate towards what shoots best and wins, it’s a natural progression, nature of the beast. And human nature to do so.
KW

I think that sums it up. It's why I went with Shiloh and I am very glad I did. It is possible that if as many Pedersoli's entered long range matches that they'd do as well as the Shiloh's, but the most sure way to success is to see what the top shooters are doing and follow them up.

The people at Shiloh are also very supportive of the sport. That's worth a bunch in my book.

Chris.

[Randy Bohannon]

Amen Kenny and Chris, Shiloh makes the best 1874’s ever produced by anyone. They have built more 1874’s than anyone else on earth at any time,the Bryan’s have mastered the craft,I have one more on order before they retire .

[eastbank]

if you have to have a usa made sharps, order one and then go buy a pedersoli and while waiting for the rifle, use the pedersoli has a learning tool. get into reloading and the ins and out of shooting black powder and cast bullets, along with learning the sights and triggers. after your new rifle arrives, sell the pedersoli for maybe more that you paid for it, even if to break even or lose a little you will be ahead of the game.

[JKR]

if you have to have a usa made sharps, order one and then go buy a pedersoli and while waiting for the rifle, use the pedersoli has a learning tool. get into reloading and the ins and out of shooting black powder and cast bullets, along with learning the sights and triggers. after your new rifle arrives, sell the pedersoli for maybe more that you paid for it, even if to break even or lose a little you will be ahead of the game.

Great suggestion. Totally agree!
JKR

[Edward]

Great suggestion. Totally agree!
JKR

I'll 2nd That!!!/Ed

[barnabus]

I think the anti spaghetti rifle brigade are gonna have to sit this one out :bigsmyl2:

I knew they would show up eventually! I guess they are like Harley owners,everything else is crap in their opinion.

[barnabus]

Kenny, I don't see anyone challenging the supremacy of Shilos in competitions. I don't mind my thread being hijacked to discuss the differences between rifle makers but I don't see anyone here writing that Pedersoli is better than American rifles and all the winning American rifles are flukes. I think if read the comments, people are stating the pesky facts that Pedersoli makes excellent barrels and can perform in the hands of a shooter. I think the only real opinion I have read is that if more competitors used Pedersoli, we might have seen some of those rifles make it to the medal stand.

it always turns into pedersoli bashing and then self-congratulating by one particular person. Happens every single time- all the time and it really gets old.

[Randy Bohannon]

Pedersoli makes decent off beat rifles with decent barrels ,crappy screws ,fake case hardening ,you have to buy what’s available with zero options and goofy forends. If that’s your desire have at it but do know that they are not true to the original rifles whereas Shilohs are . Pedersoli is a reasonable rifle with some detractions.

[Don McDowell]

Pedersoli makes a pretty decent rifle. There are darn few shooters that put in the time and effort to find what it takes to get the consistent x'ring accuracy it takes along with the dedicated practice to be a pest in the top contender list. Shiloh makes an excellent rifle beauty in fit and finish with arquably the finest bpcr barrels available. The price difference between them and the quality imports isn't large, the lag time between ordering and having the rifle is the only bugaboo to some, but the old adage about good things come to those who wait especially applies.
But then one has to wonder how many of those that don't like what Shiloh posters say will show at places like this to show those Sharps snobs just how wrong they are?https://azmuzzleloading.com/index.php/long-range/

[RSAPD]

This was definitely a fun thread to watch and read. I was joking with Don that I need to hurry up and get a Shiloh so I don't start arguments on here when I post results of my load development. Hahah

[Kenny Wasserburger]

it always turns into pedersoli bashing and then self-congratulating by one particular person. Happens every single time- all the time and it really gets old.

There are those that spout a lot of gas, few facts mostly conjecture and opinions based on absolutely nothing.

Then there are those that put out facts and the sordid truth. Like many forums these days the truth and facts is abhorrent for some. The funny part is this, you have absolutely nothing in the way of facts to back up your opinions. Yet are highly offended by those that do.

One of the top European shooters just rebarreled his Pedersoli, with a custom barrel and had a Shiloh Spec reamer used to chamber the rifle. He posted this on the Facebook Sharps rifle Forum, yesterday.

Not once did I bash the Pedersoli, I simply pointed out the truth in the fields of competition the actual results.

Not what I think, but just the actual results. When you find the truth offensive to your beliefs, well you probably should re-examine your opinions.

This is a public forum, when someone posts an opinion, without any factual data to back up said opinions, you will get called on it eventually.

In my opinion those expressing the greatest amount of butt hurt on this subject have absolutely the least amount of experience. There, I just expressed my opinion without any factual data to back it up. Ridiculous isn’t it?

Pedersoli sponsored a competition, expressly for the purpose to showcase the accuracy of their barrels. Dick Trenk felt that, what he perceived as the superior quality of Pedersoli Barrels would dominate this competition. In a put up or shut up match shooting for group size at 200 yards. Sadly this backfired for them. A good friend from GA won that competition 5 different times, with his 40-65 Shiloh, all sub MOA groups. All 5 groups under 2 inches. That’s the truth, damn inconvenient but the truth none the less.

Pedersoli barrels are good quality, yet are handicapped by their chamber designs. Dick Trenk again went to bat having a special bullet designed expressly for the Pedersoli chamber, moulds were made, one even sent around to many shooters to test. That’s a fact. This bullet design was to optimize and mitigate some of the shortcomings of the chamber design used by Pedersoli. It was an attempt to make their 45-70 more competitive, much of that was posted on this very forum at one time. Victory moulds I believe was the maker. It was called the PGT.

I do believe that there was some success, with that undertaking, in improving accuracy. Unfortunately the bullet never achieved the success that they hoped for in major competition. Its production quietly went away, due to a lack of demand obviously.

If you had a rifled Pedersoli blank, as it is of very high quality German gun steel, and put a proper chamber on it. You could very well have a very competitive rifle. I have shot Pedersoli sharps in a silhouette match, once, they have a few minor aesthetics issues that I do not care for, but that’s entirely personal preference. If you actually handle an original Sharps or a Shiloh then the Pedersoli, you will immediately notice what I am speaking of. When I break something on my Shiloh such as a lever spring or even a firing pin, these are replaced under warranty free of charge, even a worn out barrel. I challenge you to see where Pedersoli will do that, sir please find that information and please post it.

As I had said, I refrained from posting, till it was mentioned that such superior accuracy would keep a certain demographic of shooters quiet. When in fact in Pedersoli’s own match, such accuracy was easily bested, year after year in actual competition. By Shilohs and Badger barreled highwalls. One shooter did it 5 times, that wasn’t me. Myself just twice yet my smallest group became a world record with PP. It even beat my Grease Groove group by .400 inches. My only goal is to beat myself.

So in closing, barnabus what gets old is the nay sayers, just spouting off because the truth offends their delicate sensibilities. Without bringing any facts to the table, you’re just whining, not much of an argument. Kinda like the puppy that needs to got outside and pee.

KW

For the record the groups posted by the OP are excellent groups and very well done, my hat is definitely off to him. He is to be commended for his efforts, he has my utmost respect. In no way can anyone disparage his accomplishments, nor did I ever do so. I have every confidence that he may very well improve upon those excellent efforts.

[eastbank]

310602 the so called fake caseharding on my ped is over 10 years old and has seen a lot of service and seems to be holding up well.

[RSAPD]

Kenny, can you explain more about why Pedersoli will not amend the design of their chambers. You have been very clear the barrels are great but Pedersoli mucks up the chambers. They have to know this and probably have known it for a very long time. And I can definitely tell the chamber is quite oversized and 405 grainers keyhole badly for me regardless of diameter. I guess maybe this is a matter of cost to change equipment for Pedersoli? I am not a metal/tool guy so I wouldn't know the obstacles.

[indian joe]

This was definitely a fun thread to watch and read. I was joking with Don that I need to hurry up and get a Shiloh so I don't start arguments on here when I post results of my load development. Hahah

I guess I am the culprit here - it was my post that got Kenny involved (I did put the big smiley after it) - didnt really mean to start a bushfire but sometimes one small spark will do that.

However for anyone that reads through this thread without getting their undies in a knot its drug out some good information from some of the top proponents in the game.

Big question is why dont Pedersoli change their reamer specs ?
I will throw one back - is it possible / likely that their chamber is more friendly to average run of the mill shooters (their target market) ?

I have two of those Italian chambered guns (lever guns not sharps) both have been easy to load for and both will shoot 100yard groups a tad under 2MOA with iron sights - I am happy to admit I am at my absolute limit doing that. Part of the reason I have got that far is I am prepared to be blasphemed ridiculed and criticised (:bigsmyl2:) here in order to garner information that helps the process.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kenny, can you explain more about why Pedersoli will not amend the design of their chambers. You have been very clear the barrels are great but Pedersoli mucks up the chambers. They have to know this and probably have known it for a very long time. And I can definitely tell the chamber is quite oversized and 405 grainers keyhole badly for me regardless of diameter. I guess maybe this is a matter of cost to change equipment for Pedersoli? I am not a metal/tool guy so I wouldn't know the obstacles.

It’s one of those unsolved mysteries of the Pedersolis they believe they know better, I know for a fact Dick Trenk was trying to fix that issue. There are some old threads on this forum discussing those issues. 12-15 years ago. Since I am accused of Pedersoli bashing, when in fact I am just stating facts well know by experienced shooters. Their throats and oversized chambers are facts not bashing.
Older throats were .8 long! That’s like trying to shoot a 45-90 in a 45-120 chamber. Dick was often extremely frustrated when dealing with Pedersoli. If one chooses too you can go search that info out, it’s all here. I won’t bother posting it cause it’s Pedersoli bashing, or so claiming. When in fact the conversations are from frustration of Pedersoli owners, I don’t have to say anything bad, they are pretty upfront with their own issues.

Lastly trying to get a foreign gun builder to fix their issues, isn’t my problem Dick Trenk carried that torch, and couldn’t get much accomplished.

I am perfectly satisfied with my Shilohs, my 1877 is due any day. 16 twist 45-100, pack hardened, raised forearm panels, Rigby flat, checkering, shotgun butt checkered steel buttplate, upgraded wood and finish. It was to be my last Shiloh, or so I thought, I won another in the Shiloh match in a shoot off. Along with some very fancy English Walnut very similar to Randy’s pictures. I won it it a shoot off not a drawing.

At a Shot Show 20 years ago, Dick Trenk introduced me to Perangleo Pedersoli. He offered me a rifle to complete with, I turned him down. Explaining why. Again he offered me one free of charge, if I would compete with it in Creedmoor in 45-110, he had Dick T. Explain that the barrel would be wrapped in $100 bills. I again turned him down. Dick later Said “I told him you wouldn’t do it even for money.”
I told Trenk if I was to take such a bribe, the money would have been used to put a Shiloh barrel on it. Dick thought that was funny, he agreed that wouldn’t have went over well.

I been shooting at national championships since camp perry in 1991 been shooting BPTR since 1996. The first Creedmoor nationals was in 1997, at 1000 yards Dave Gullo was 2nd overall, 3rd was Jimbo Terry of Rawlings WY, my shooting partner and spotter. I was 4th overall. Dave was shooting his Borchardt in 45-100, Jimbo was shooting his Shiloh in 45-110, and I was shooting my Shiloh in 45-110. Van van Pelt was the winner at 1000 yards in 1997, Dave Gullo’s partner.

The cost isn’t the issue, it’s only a new chamber reamer, it’s purely the Hubris on the Italians part, thinking they have the better chamber design, when in fact the stats, say exactly the opposite.

Do you know that Pedersoli offers a free trip to the factory if you win a national championship with one of their rifles unaltered of course. No one has ever been able to claim it to date.

My observations, and the facts presented come from shooting this rifles since 1994, 29 years this coming September. Jimbo has won more Day 1 of the Creedmoor matches than anyone I know with his Shiloh 110.

One last thing: I don’t listen to criticism from someone, that I would never seek advice from.

KW.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I guess I am the culprit here - it was my post that got Kenny involved (I did put the big smiley after it) - didnt really mean to start a bushfire but sometimes one small spark will do that.

However for anyone that reads through this thread without getting their undies in a knot its drug out some good information from some of the top proponents in the game.

Big question is why dont Pedersoli change their reamer specs ?
I will throw one back - is it possible / likely that their chamber is more friendly to average run of the mill shooters (their target market) ?



Joe, that’s possible, but in their sharps I tend to disagree, as I get too many callers that are new shooters having issues with their Pedersoli rifles. Keyholes and 6 MOA accuracy at 100 yards.

As for a brush fire only seen one post directly at me, which I did answer too but in a polite for me response.

There are old posts on here and threads ******** about Pedersoli chambers from Pedersoli owners, and their trials and tribulations, making them shoot, or trying too. And the lack of response from Pedersoli.

It’s possible that the newest offerings have sorted some of that out. I still recommend a .460 to .461 bullet to try first and go with the .461 as you can always size it down.

No ridicule here, you are making yours work.

My only reason to get into this thread was to say hey now, while the OP groups are very good, they aren’t anything extra special, and the Shilohs don’t take a back seat. Then I proceeded to share facts to back up my statements. This is where some took exception to that. They offered opinions and postulation, and conjecture, yet nothing in the way of facts to back any of that up. When that was pointed out, well then butt hurt commenced, and only one poster, in particular.

Why don’t Pedersoli change their reamer specs, that’s a good question, yet none of my concern. I own Shilohs.

Though I will admit this Thanks to Dan T and Dick T Pedersoli did offer a 38-55 high wall with a 12 twist barrel. That with a 38-50 Chamber reamer would be a highly competitive rifle in BPCR Silhouette, in my opinion. Something to ponder.

KW

[indian joe]

Joe, that’s possible, but in their sharps I tend to disagree, as I get too many callers that are new shooters having issues with their Pedersoli rifles. Keyholes and 6 MOA accuracy at 100 yards.

that would be durn dissapointing - I wonder how many of em shooting a .458 boolit and no overpowder wad

As for a brush fire only seen one post directly at me, which I did answer too but in a polite for me response.
stopped him in his tracks too eh!

There are old posts on here and threads ******** about Pedersoli chambers from Pedersoli owners, and their trials and tribulations, making them shoot, or trying too. And the lack of response from Pedersoli.

It’s possible that the newest offerings have sorted some of that out. I still recommend a .460 to .461 bullet to try first and go with the .461 as you can always size it down.

the word is well and truly out down under about pedersolis and fat boolits. I started out with both cowboy guns at .460

No ridicule here, you are making yours work.

My only reason to get into this thread was to say hey now, while the OP groups are very good, they aren’t anything extra special, and the Shilohs don’t take a back seat. Then I proceeded to share facts to back up my statements. This is where some took exception to that. They offered opinions and postulation, and conjecture, yet nothing in the way of facts to back any of that up. When that was pointed out, well then butt hurt commenced, and only one poster, in particular.

Why don’t Pedersoli change their reamer specs, that’s a good question, yet none of my concern. I own Shilohs.

Though I will admit this Thanks to Dan T and Dick T Pedersoli did offer a 38-55 high wall with a 12 twist barrel. That with a 38-50 Chamber reamer would be a highly competitive rifle in BPCR Silhouette, in my opinion. Something to ponder.

would be nice to shoot too
question ...... same plan work ok running a 45/90 reamer into 45/70- barrel ?

KW
......

[Don McDowell]

Joe it is possible to rechamber those 45-70's to a longer case, but it takes the right design and spec reamer to do it and not end up with quasi bottle necks.
Lee Shaver has been said to have the reamers that accomplish this.

[RSAPD]

It’s one of those unsolved mysteries of the Pedersolis they believe they know better, I know for a fact Dick Trenk was trying to fix that issue. There are some old threads on this forum discussing those issues. 12-15 years ago. Since I am accused of Pedersoli bashing, when in fact I am just stating facts well know by experienced shooters. Their throats and oversized chambers are facts not bashing.
Older throats were .8 long! That’s like trying to shoot a 45-90 in a 45-120 chamber. Dick was often extremely frustrated when dealing with Pedersoli. If one chooses too you can go search that info out, it’s all here. I won’t bother posting it cause it’s Pedersoli bashing, or so claiming. When in fact the conversations are from frustration of Pedersoli owners, I don’t have to say anything bad, they are pretty upfront with their own issues.

Lastly trying to get a foreign gun builder to fix their issues, isn’t my problem Dick Trenk carried that torch, and couldn’t get much accomplished.

I am perfectly satisfied with my Shilohs, my 1877 is due any day. 16 twist 45-100, pack hardened, raised forearm panels, Rigby flat, checkering, shotgun butt checkered steel buttplate, upgraded wood and finish. It was to be my last Shiloh, or so I thought, I won another in the Shiloh match in a shoot off. Along with some very fancy English Walnut very similar to Randy’s pictures. I won it it a shoot off not a drawing.

At a Shot Show 20 years ago, Dick Trenk introduced me to Perangleo Pedersoli. He offered me a rifle to complete with, I turned him down. Explaining why. Again he offered me one free of charge, if I would compete with it in Creedmoor in 45-110, he had Dick T. Explain that the barrel would be wrapped in $100 bills. I again turned him down. Dick later Said “I told him you wouldn’t do it even for money.”
I told Trenk if I was to take such a bribe, the money would have been used to put a Shiloh barrel on it. Dick thought that was funny, he agreed that wouldn’t have went over well.

I been shooting at national championships since camp perry in 1991 been shooting BPTR since 1996. The first Creedmoor nationals was in 1997, at 1000 yards Dave Gullo was 2nd overall, 3rd was Jimbo Terry of Rawlings WY, my shooting partner and spotter. I was 4th overall. Dave was shooting his Borchardt in 45-100, Jimbo was shooting his Shiloh in 45-110, and I was shooting my Shiloh in 45-110. Van van Pelt was the winner at 1000 yards in 1997, Dave Gullo’s partner.

The cost isn’t the issue, it’s only a new chamber reamer, it’s purely the Hubris on the Italians part, thinking they have the better chamber design, when in fact the stats, say exactly the opposite.

Do you know that Pedersoli offers a free trip to the factory if you win a national championship with one of their rifles unaltered of course. No one has ever been able to claim it to date.

My observations, and the facts presented come from shooting this rifles since 1994, 29 years this coming September. Jimbo has won more Day 1 of the Creedmoor matches than anyone I know with his Shiloh 110.

One last thing: I don’t listen to criticism from someone, that I would never seek advice from.

KW.

Very interesting Kenny. Thanks for taking the time to explain all that in detail. Love this forum, so much can be learned because many accomplished folks are willing to spend the time.

[indian joe]

Joe it is possible to rechamber those 45-70's to a longer case, but it takes the right design and spec reamer to do it and not end up with quasi bottle necks.
Lee Shaver has been said to have the reamers that accomplish this.

thanks - its an option for down the track.

[Don McDowell]

It will only turn out well if the machinist that opens that chamber is extremely good at getting everything centered and if the original chamber is straight
Rebarrelling probably better option all around

[FrankJD]

I had Lee Shaver line a Pedersoli bbl and cut a new .45-70 PPB chamber ... all with stellar results.

[Don McDowell]

Relining not a bad option. Saves on having to blue the new barrel and cut the dovetails etc.

[JKR]

Pedersoli 74 sharps. $2000. (Cabela’s)
Barrel liner, installed. $500+

Shiloh #3 (base price) $2500.

Hmmm!

JKR

[FrankJD]

Pedersoli 74 sharps. $2000. (Cabela’s)
Barrel liner, installed. $500+

Shiloh #3 (base price) $2500.

Hmmm!

JKR

Your statement is loaded with ambiguities, totally dependent on time frames, what's available, and at what price tags. In my case, the purchases and costs were done 5+ years ago and at that time it made perfect dollar sense to run with a new liner, and with an exclusive PPB chamber that few had access to, all at a nearly $900 less than a Shiloh or C.Sharps. So, like most all statistics, be careful with what you think they portray.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Your statement is loaded with ambiguities, totally dependent on time frames, what's available, and at what price tags. In my case, the purchases and costs were done 5+ years ago and at that time it made perfect dollar sense to run with a new liner, and with an exclusive PPB chamber that few had access to, all at a nearly $900 less than a Shiloh or C.Sharps. So, like most all statistics, be careful with what you think they portray.
If I had to go to all that effort to get a rifle to shoot, I would be seriously reevaluating my original purchase.

A standard Shiloh Chamber will shoot grease groove bullets well, plenty of data to back that up. Plus they shoot Paper patch well, again lots of data to back that statement up also. You can order a special PP throat in a Shiloh also.

Yet you’re stuck with something that shoot’s pp great but nothing else?

I don’t see a win win here.

Kenny W.

[FrankJD]

If I had to go to all that effort to get a rifle to shoot, I would be seriously reevaluating my original purchase.

A standard Shiloh Chamber will shoot grease groove bullets well, plenty of data to back that up. Plus they shoot Paper patch well, again lots of data to back that statement up also. You can order a special PP throat in a Shiloh also.

Yet you’re stuck with something that shoot’s pp great but nothing else?

I don’t see a win win here.

Kenny W.

Kenny Kenny Kenny ... to each their own, the way it should be, n'est-ce pas?

I don't care what you think or do, that's all that matters ... to me. Get it?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kenny Kenny Kenny ... to each their own, the way it should be, n'est-ce pas?

I don't care what you think or do, that's all that matters ... to me. Get it?

Oh I get it, definitely, I do lol.

Kenny W.

[RSAPD]

Anyhow, back to things responding to physics and not opinions - I have a question about fire formed cases. The cases that I shot based on this thread, I just reloaded. I have not been resizing or expanding and just clean well and anneal. I had about 10 that were enlarged near the base of case and would not chamber. What does this mean? Do some fire formed cases need to be FL resized every once in awhile?

[JKR]

In your opening post you mentioned having shot some smokeless loads with jacketed bullets. Is is possible that it might be these cases? I ask because I’ve not needed to resize any of my BP cases.
Do you have another 45-70? I have two and cases don’t interchange.
I guess I’d resize them so they fit and carry on. No doubt you’ll get other opinions.
JKR

[Don McDowell]

Resize this batch of cases
If the chamber fine then load and fire them again with your Blackpowder loads
Like JKR said the higher pressure of the smokeless may very well expand them enough to make resizing mandatory
If they won’t chamber without resizing then you have a chamber problem that likely can only be fixed by either tebarreling or lining and rechambering

[Gunlaker]

There are a couple of things that can make fireformed cases not chamber properly. First is a chamber that's oval instead of round. See if the brass will chamber if you rotate the case to a different orientation. I've never experienced this, but I have heard of it.

The second one is something that I have experienced. My first C. Sharps 1885 had a really poorly cut chamber. Way too fat at the base. The brass would eventually expand to the point that it would hang up on the extractor. An old gun smith I knew suggested taking the extractor out and seeing if the brass would then chamber. The "fix" was to rebarrel or carefully reprofile the edge of the extractor so that it didn't hit the case body. That's what I did. I eventually sold that rifle.

Chris.

[RSAPD]

Thanks everyone. I'll test all those suggestions. It has not been happening, so I am little perplexed it started. Chris, I think your extractor issue has some merit. Any case FL sized slips in easy and extractor has no problem. Once the cases have been fired, it does seem the extract or can hang up. I'll look at that more closely.

[indian joe]

Thanks everyone. I'll test all those suggestions. It has not been happening, so I am little perplexed it started. Chris, I think your extractor issue has some merit. Any case FL sized slips in easy and extractor has no problem. Once the cases have been fired, it does seem the extract or can hang up. I'll look at that more closely.

are you orienting the brass to the chamber? most of the fellers I see are doing that - file a notch in the rim before first firing and that always goes TDC (up) - if thers any more than a hair of neck clearance the case will lie at the bottom of the chamber and expansion is one sided and that makes for uneven next time it goes in.

most resize dies take dimensions back too small for most chambers (thats hard on brass) usually when chambering gets sticky its that bump just ahead of the solid head causing the jam. I made a body die that just gives that bump a tiny squeeze without sizing the remainder of the case body - time will tell but it seems like that bit of a touch last almost as long as a full resize. Tight brass will usually spring back a touch from the chamber walls and extract easier than it went in (test this theory with a bolt gun with its extra camming power). So alls you need is for it to JUST chamber without being sticky.

If you making any kind of swage die they must be polished like glass inside so they dont scratch the cases.

[RSAPD]

are you orienting the brass to the chamber? most of the fellers I see are doing that - file a notch in the rim before first firing and that always goes TDC (up) - if thers any more than a hair of neck clearance the case will lie at the bottom of the chamber and expansion is one sided and that makes for uneven next time it goes in.

most resize dies take dimensions back too small for most chambers (thats hard on brass) usually when chambering gets sticky its that bump just ahead of the solid head causing the jam. I made a body die that just gives that bump a tiny squeeze without sizing the remainder of the case body - time will tell but it seems like that bit of a touch last almost as long as a full resize. Tight brass will usually spring back a touch from the chamber walls and extract easier than it went in (test this theory with a bolt gun with its extra camming power). So alls you need is for it to JUST chamber without being sticky.

If you making any kind of swage die they must be polished like glass inside so they dont scratch the cases.

OK, sounds similar to what Chris was saying. Interesting, I'll keep track of that. Thanks.