How can I tell it's a hot load?

[dearslayer]

Ok so I'm trying to come up with a plinking 9mm load for my Canik Darkside. It seems that loads for my Shadow1 are too long for the Canik by quite a bit. I have cast 143gr No Lube Groove boolits and the powder coating actually went on a little thick. I'm using Win231 powder and I started with 4gr but because I have to seat them to 1.055- 1.06 as opposed to around 1.10 for the Shadow to get them to past the plunk test it feels like the load has a bit too much recoil. Is it because they are seated so much more deeper? Does anyone have data for this particular boolit with Win231?

[44Blam]

By shortening the OAL, you are decreasing available volume in the case. So you need to reduce the powder charge to avoid over pressure. Even if you don't see pressure signs in the case/primer, the thing that will tell you if you are over pressure is a chronograph. Probably best to chrono out of the firearm that will chamber both cartridges.

[WRideout]

i was having trouble with feeding in my hi point 9mm, truncated cone lyman 356402. my load of 4.3 gr promo had been good in every respect, until i seated the boolits deeper to improve feeding. it was not a lot of difference, but i started getting sticky extractions and all sorts of feeding problems related to cases stuck in the chamber, that wouldn't come out.

having said that, it seems to me that any time you seat boolits deeper, you should probably work up the powder charge again. i reduced mine to 4.0 gr and it now seems to function ok.

Wayne

[dearslayer]

By shortening the OAL, you are decreasing available volume in the case. So you need to reduce the powder charge to avoid over pressure. Even if you don't see pressure signs in the case/primer, the thing that will tell you if you are over pressure is a chronograph. Probably best to chrono out of the firearm that will chamber both cartridges.

Unfortunately I don't have a Chrono. I don't compete but I guess it would be a handy thing to have. Never did understand what it's all about in regards to loading. I'll have to read up on it.

[44Blam]

Unfortunately I don't have a Chrono. I don't compete but I guess it would be a handy thing to have. Never did understand what it's all about in regards to loading. I'll have to read up on it.

Most of us do not have access to equipment that will tell you what the pressure of the round in the chamber is. But a chronograph is a pretty good indicator if you apply the information from it to the known pressure/loads from the manuals. So, it really is a good investment... I personally think that it is pretty critical to have if you are pushing boolits that do not have actual data in the book especially if you are pushing those boolits fairly fast.
The example is that if the book says a 115 grain boolit will go 1100 fps and the pressure is 25,000psi with x powder and my 115 grain boolit with the same powder is going 1200 fps, it is a good possibility that my charge is producing more than 25,000 psi... I suspect that with your shortened OAL and same charge you are probably generating higher pressures than you think you are.

[jdgabbard]

By shortening the OAL, you are decreasing available volume in the case. So you need to reduce the powder charge to avoid over pressure. Even if you don't see pressure signs in the case/primer, the thing that will tell you if you are over pressure is a chronograph. Probably best to chrono out of the firearm that will chamber both cartridges.

That is not accurate at all. You're only seeing one aspect of the available data by measuring the velocity. While it can be an indicator with a given load it often doesn't hold up very well. And THE ONLY thing that will definitively tell you if you're over pressure is pressure testing equipment. I read a while back about the effects of PC'd boolits on pressure, where after testing it was determined that they had a slightly lower pressure at higher velocities. It was theorized that the slippery powder coating actually helped it glide down the bore, which prevented pressures from building up as high. Maybe this is something Larry Gibson could chime in on. But at the end of the day, using a Chronograph alone to determine if you're overpressure is not exactly a scientific approach. When combining with other indicators it might tell you whether you're approaching that red line. But there is only one sure fire way of determining if you're over pressure, and that is using the proper equipment to measure it.

As to the OP, I do not load with that bullet, or powder. However, 40-50 hundreds of an inch is fairly significant. That was the difference between impacting the rifling and not with a 9mm FMJ load I worked up using Red Dot. What I would suggest doing in this situation is start from scratch. Begin with the starting load, and work back up to the charge you settled on. It's a pain, but it's worth it unless you don't value your hands and fingers, or possible your eyes/face... There are lots of people who use unpublished loads, combinations, and even just OALs. However, they usually work each change up from the bottom unless the charge was a very mild load to begin with. In my opinion, I think 231 is fairly fast, I'd work up from the start load.

[725]

Look at a good reload manual. It may not be precise lab quality results, however, it is a good indicator as to where you are headed..

[405grain]

dearslayer: You mentioned that your using a bullet that's designed for powdercoating (no lube grooves). You also mentioned that the powder coating that you're using is going on a little thick, and you're having to seat the bullets deeper so that they will chamber properly. The first thing that popped into my mind is: what diameter are you sizing the bullets to? The nose shape of the bullet may require that the bullet be deep seated no matter what the sized diameter is; but if you're powder coating the bullets as cast and not sizing them it might be what's causing the chambering problems.

[racepres]

That is not accurate at all. You're only seeing one aspect of the available data by measuring the velocity. While it can be an indicator with a given load it often doesn't hold up very well. And THE ONLY thing that will definitively tell you if you're over pressure is pressure testing equipment. I read a while back about the effects of PC'd boolits on pressure, where after testing it was determined that they had a slightly lower pressure at higher velocities. It was theorized that the slippery powder coating actually helped it glide down the bore, which prevented pressures from building up as high. Maybe this is something Larry Gibson could chime in on. But at the end of the day, using a Chronograph alone to determine if you're overpressure is not exactly a scientific approach. When combining with other indicators it might tell you whether you're approaching that red line. But there is only one sure fire way of determining if you're over pressure, and that is using the proper equipment to measure it.

As to the OP, I do not load with that bullet, or powder. However, 40-50 hundreds of an inch is fairly significant. That was the difference between impacting the rifling and not with a 9mm FMJ load I worked up using Red Dot. What I would suggest doing in this situation is start from scratch. Begin with the starting load, and work back up to the charge you settled on. It's a pain, but it's worth it unless you don't value your hands and fingers, or possible your eyes/face... There are lots of people who use unpublished loads, combinations, and even just OALs. However, they usually work each change up from the bottom unless the charge was a very mild load to begin with. In my opinion, I think 231 is fairly fast, I'd work up from the start load.

Very Few indeed have access to Pressure testing Equipment...Most have at least access to a Chronograph!!
Simply ... If you get more FPS than Others with same Case and Boolit... you are Over the Pressure they (or the reloading manuals) are at..

[Scrounge]

Unfortunately I don't have a Chrono. I don't compete but I guess it would be a handy thing to have. Never did understand what it's all about in regards to loading. I'll have to read up on it.

Where, at least approximately, are you located? Might be a member near you that would let you use his/her chronograph. I'm in the OKC metro area, for example. I have my own chronograph because one of the other members here had one that was malfunctioning, and gave it to me to play with. I was able to get it working again. If you're near the Oklahoma City area, I'd be happy to lend it to you.

Bill

[Willie T]

That is not accurate at all. You're only seeing one aspect of the available data by measuring the velocity. While it can be an indicator with a given load it often doesn't hold up very well. And THE ONLY thing that will definitively tell you if you're over pressure is pressure testing equipment. I read a while back about the effects of PC'd boolits on pressure, where after testing it was determined that they had a slightly lower pressure at higher velocities. It was theorized that the slippery powder coating actually helped it glide down the bore, which prevented pressures from building up as high. Maybe this is something Larry Gibson could chime in on. But at the end of the day, using a Chronograph alone to determine if you're overpressure is not exactly a scientific approach. When combining with other indicators it might tell you whether you're approaching that red line. But there is only one sure fire way of determining if you're over pressure, and that is using the proper equipment to measure it.

As to the OP, I do not load with that bullet, or powder. However, 40-50 hundreds of an inch is fairly significant. That was the difference between impacting the rifling and not with a 9mm FMJ load I worked up using Red Dot. What I would suggest doing in this situation is start from scratch. Begin with the starting load, and work back up to the charge you settled on. It's a pain, but it's worth it unless you don't value your hands and fingers, or possible your eyes/face... There are lots of people who use unpublished loads, combinations, and even just OALs. However, they usually work each change up from the bottom unless the charge was a very mild load to begin with. In my opinion, I think 231 is fairly fast, I'd work up from the start load.

Velocity is a function of pressure.

Comparing velocity to published data for a similar bullet, you can extrapolate close enough to back away from the maximum and load safe ammunition. Seating deeper in 9 mm does spike pressure. If you have Lyman’s 4th cast handbook, examine the data for 9mm. You will find numerous instances where deep seated projectiles list a maximum charge that is near a starting charge in long seated projectiles. Casting our own projectiles we often work with data from similar projectiles. While not exact, a chronograph is a useful tool to ballpark where our loads fall in relation to published data for a similar projectile. Small cases like 380, 9mm, & 40 S&W are particularly pressure sensitive to seating depth. You can load them safely without data for the exact projectiles you are loading but you need to examine the charge weights as they relate to seating depth in published data for similar projectiles.
Willie

[BC17A]

Ok so I'm trying to come up with a plinking 9mm load for my Canik Darkside. It seems that loads for my Shadow1 are too long for the Canik by quite a bit. I have cast 143gr No Lube Groove boolits and the powder coating actually went on a little thick. I'm using Win231 powder and I started with 4gr but because I have to seat them to 1.055- 1.06 as opposed to around 1.10 for the Shadow to get them to past the plunk test it feels like the load has a bit too much recoil. Is it because they are seated so much more deeper? Does anyone have data for this particular boolit with Win231?


If you work with Hodgdon 147XTP data you'll be safe. They show 3.4gn max of W231. As it stands now, I'd say you are well over max pressure and likely into +P+ pressures. First, how long is your 143gn boolit? For comparison, the 147XTP is .655" long and seats approximately .300" into the case at 1.100" OAL. Do the math with your boolit to find it's seating depth then you'll know where to start.

[charlie b]

The OP mentioned he is developing loads for plinking. Given that I'd recommend starting low and then working up until the gun functions reliably. Then stop.

If you are pushing max without any instrumentation then you should stick with book loads, including bullet type and oal.

Back when I was poor I made up a momentum measuring device to test loads. I'd fire factory ammo as a reference and then measure hand loads. Not very conclusive, but, better than nothing.

And, no, measuring vel does not tell the whole story, but, at least it is something. Like the OP noticing that recoil increased. That happened to me with a load. Turned out the load was over pressure due to powder position in the case (.45Colt).

[jdgabbard]

Velocity is a function of pressure.

Comparing velocity to published data for a similar bullet, you can extrapolate close enough to back away from the maximum and load safe ammunition. Seating deeper in 9 mm does spike pressure. If you have Lyman’s 4th cast handbook, examine the data for 9mm. You will find numerous instances where deep seated projectiles list a maximum charge that is near a starting charge in long seated projectiles. Casting our own projectiles we often work with data from similar projectiles. While not exact, a chronograph is a useful tool to ballpark where our loads fall in relation to published data for a similar projectile. Small cases like 380, 9mm, & 40 S&W are particularly pressure sensitive to seating depth. You can load them safely without data for the exact projectiles you are loading but you need to examine the charge weights as they relate to seating depth in published data for similar projectiles.
Willie

While I will agree that higher pressure generally results in a higher velocity for a given bullet, this is again not 100% accurate. There are are a multitude of instances in the various reloading manuals where a lower pressure results in a higher velocity. I only have a copy of the 3rd Ed. Cast Bullet Handbook on hand here at the office. But if you flip over to the 38spl loadings you'll see that in the 358311 data the max loads for Blue Dot and 231 have listed velocities of 919fps and 906fps respectively. If you look at the pressures levels, they are 16,500psi and 16,800 respectively. Meaning that a greater velocity is achieved with a lower pressure. More goes into generating a given velocity than peak pressure. It has more to do with the pressure curve. Think of this as not only peak pressure, but pressure over time while the bullet is in the barrel. Acceleration pressure if you will...not sure if there is a better term for it. Which is something you ABSOLUTELY 100% CANNOT MEASURE WITH A CHRONOGRAPH. And the pressure curve can be influenced by the particular firearm in question as well. Such as cylinder gap, barrel diameter in relation to bullet diameter and hardness, barrel length, etc, etc...

So again, while I do agree it can be an a single data point indicator that you COULD be overpressure, it is not by any means something one should rely on. It just doesn't work like that. This is a big reason you've started to see some powders fall out of the loading manual for particular calibers/bullet combinations. New pressure testing equipment more accurately tests the pressure curves and spikes, which give us a better idea as to what combinations are safe enough for publishing, and which ones are not. I would agree sticking with published data is the best bet. And as I mentioned in my above post that the OP should carefully work up from the starting load again. And I'll even agree with you about what you say on seating depth affecting pressure levels - it does. But we also very often interchange data for given bullet weights frequently (though not really an ideal practice). Because very often the amount of bullet inside the case can be different than the one that the data is for. But we have to have somewhere to work up from. And this is why it is always suggested to start at the given starting load for a new bullet design and carefully work up to something that works safely in YOUR pistol.

We might be splitting hairs here, and I don't want to sound confrontational. But I do want to make it very clear that velocity is not how you measure pressure. It's more of a function of the pressure curve.

[fredj338]

How did you arrive at the 4gr as a starting charge? While OAL does affect pressures, you dont see much movement at 0.04" deeper but you are already over max, so it is likely affecting pressures. No grooves will increase bearing, increases pressures. Lead & jacketed load diff, but I think you are way over for W231.
A chrono is a great tool for the reloader. All things being equal, an increase in vel is an increase in pressures. So you can plot the vel, thus pressure increases doing load development. Which, btw, is NOT starting at or above the available load data.
BULLET WEIGHT
147 GR. HDY XTP
CASE
WINCHESTER
PRIMER
CCI 500, SMALL PISTOL
Starting Load Maximum Loads
Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure
Hodgdon HP-38 0.355" 1.100" 3.0 755 30,100 PSI 3.4 845 34,300 PSI
Winchester 231 0.355" 1.100" 3.0 755 30,100 PSI 3.4 845 34,300 PSI

[fredj338]

While I will agree that higher pressure generally results in a higher velocity for a given bullet, this is again not 100% accurate. There are are a multitude of instances in the various reloading manuals where a lower pressure results in a higher velocity. I only have a copy of the 3rd Ed. Cast Bullet Handbook on hand here at the office. But if you flip over to the 38spl loadings you'll see that in the 358311 data the max loads for Blue Dot and 231 have listed velocities of 919fps and 906fps respectively. If you look at the pressures levels, they are 16,500psi and 16,800 respectively. Meaning that a greater velocity is achieved with a lower pressure. More goes into generating a given velocity than peak pressure. It has more to do with the pressure curve. Think of this as not only peak pressure, but pressure over time while the bullet is in the barrel. Acceleration pressure if you will...not sure if there is a better term for it. Which is something you ABSOLUTELY 100% CANNOT MEASURE WITH A CHRONOGRAPH. And the pressure curve can be influenced by the particular firearm in question as well. Such as cylinder gap, barrel diameter in relation to bullet diameter and hardness, barrel length, etc, etc...

So again, while I do agree it can be an a single data point indicator that you COULD be overpressure, it is not by any means something one should rely on. It just doesn't work like that. This is a big reason you've started to see some powders fall out of the loading manual for particular calibers/bullet combinations. New pressure testing equipment more accurately tests the pressure curves and spikes, which give us a better idea as to what combinations are safe enough for publishing, and which ones are not. I would agree sticking with published data is the best bet. And as I mentioned in my above post that the OP should carefully work up from the starting load again. And I'll even agree with you about what you say on seating depth affecting pressure levels - it does. But we also very often interchange data for given bullet weights frequently (though not really an ideal practice). Because very often the amount of bullet inside the case can be different than the one that the data is for. But we have to have somewhere to work up from. And this is why it is always suggested to start at the given starting load for a new bullet design and carefully work up to something that works safely in YOUR pistol.

We might be splitting hairs here, and I don't want to sound confrontational. But I do want to make it very clear that velocity is not how you measure pressure. It's more of a function of the pressure curve.
You are pointing out a diff within std deviation of a given load, vel & pressure wise. Generally, the only way to get higher vel with less pressures is slower powders. There are points in a reloading where adding more powder may not increase vel & that is a warning sign you have reached max, & further increases risk a spike & over pressure event.
So agree, higher pressures are not a sole indicator of higher pressures but you dont get something for nothing. A chrono is very helpful when you start mixing & substituting components. Switch to a diff primer & get a significant vel increase, pressures are up. Switch a diff brand of case, vel increase, pressures are likely up. So yes, if you understand what the chrono is telling you, it can keep you out of trouble.

[dverna]

Unfortunately I don't have a Chrono. I don't compete but I guess it would be a handy thing to have. Never did understand what it's all about in regards to loading. I'll have to read up on it.

You are making plinking loads. A chronograph is not needed.

Listen to charlie b "The OP mentioned he is developing loads for plinking. Given that I'd recommend starting low and then working up until the gun functions reliably. Then stop."

People try to justify what they do (and their "tyoyus") but using a chronograph to develop plinking loads seems to be really stretching things. Then again, I have been doing this for 50+ years and had to learn to reload without one.

There is no reason to push plinkng loads to maximum and very little reason to push loads for "serious" work unless you are shooting a marginal caliber for what needs to be done. Use book data and you will be safe and effective.

If you need/want more power than a 9mm in a semi-auto, get a .40 S&W, .45 ACP or 10mm

[mdi]

Very Few indeed have access to Pressure testing Equipment...Most have at least access to a Chronograph!!
Simply ... If you get more FPS than Others with same Case and Boolit... you are Over the Pressure they (or the reloading manuals) are at..

True. If your chrony readings are higher than manual stats, it's indicative of higher pressure. Nope not as accurate as piezo electric pressure sensors, but quite suitable for the average/normal home reloader. The only other method for home reloaders to test for excess pressure is measuring case head expansion.

A chrony is a good tool for measuring velocities and quite a bit of fun too. I am not a competitive shooter (and my marksmanship is getting worse as I age!). But I run most of my handloads over the chrony and record the velocities with my load data (mine latest one cost me under $125.00 and I can read velocities on my phone). Just adds to the fun of reloading...

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

How can I tell it's a hot load?
Ok so I'm trying to come up with a plinking 9mm load for my Canik Darkside. It seems that loads for my Shadow1 are too long for the Canik by quite a bit. I have cast 143gr No Lube Groove boolits and the powder coating actually went on a little thick. I'm using Win231 powder and I started with 4gr but because I have to seat them to 1.055- 1.06 as opposed to around 1.10 for the Shadow to get them to past the plunk test it feels like the load has a bit too much recoil. Is it because they are seated so much more deeper? Does anyone have data for this particular boolit with Win231?

I start with a published starting load, if there is one.
When a semi-auto pistol cycles reliably and gives adequate accuracy, then I call it good for a plinking load.

When is it a HOT load?
Now this is kind of dependent to pistol design, but I have an anecdote.
I bought a RIA 1911 in 38 super. I decided I wanted to create a Max load. So I did a ladder test, working up from the starting load. Then at the range, I started shooting the different loads, watching for pressure signs and accuracy. I also watched for how far the brass was being thrown. Long before I seen any signs of pressure and/or heavy recoil, I noticed my brass was being launched into the next zip code. I settled on a load that kept my brass within the zip code I was standing in...which sadly was about the same power/speed as a 9mm luger Max load for that boolit, which was a factor I hoped to exceed.

[jdgabbard]

(and my marksmanship is getting worse as I age!).

I feel this in my bones... I can remember my younger days of 300m target hits at the Rifle Qual in the Army. That 300m target didn't stand a chance. Or shooting 1" groups in a 4" K frame at 25yds with fixed "old school" sights. And now I need glasses to read street signs. Best advice I wish I would have listened to is to enjoy what I have while I have it. Because none of it lasts forever.

[Bull]

I feel this in my bones... I can remember my younger days of 300m target hits at the Rifle Qual in the Army. That 300m target didn't stand a chance. Or shooting 1" groups in a 4" K frame at 25yds with fixed "old school" sights. And now I need glasses to read street signs. Best advice I wish I would have listened to is to enjoy what I have while I have it. Because none of it lasts forever.

Same with me. 300m were easy shot 39 out of 40 my first time on the Army range. Hit all 40 but fast Freddie was already going down so it did not count. Now it is difficult just trying to decide to sight in with glasses or not. Always liked iron sights now I have to experiment with other options. Bought a new pistol tried to sight it in always hit the target, but I could not get a tight group at all. But will try again.

[jdgabbard]

Same with me. 300m were easy shot 39 out of 40 my first time on the Army range. Hit all 40 but fast Freddie was already going down so it did not count. Now it is difficult just trying to decide to sight in with glasses or not. Always liked iron sights now I have to experiment with other options. Bought a new pistol tried to sight it in always hit the target, but I could not get a tight group at all. But will try again.

Same here, I always preferred Irons. I'm slowly having to either replace irons with high visibility sights, switch to optics, or buy new guns which have better sights. But good to see I'm not the only Oklahoman with these problems.

[dearslayer]

Ok to clarify I started with 4.0 hrs of Win 231 because that is what I was using for a similar load. I don't remember off hand what it was ( would have to check my notes in the basement ) but without being real experienced I didn't realize that I had to seat these boolits that much more to pass the plunk test. I only trialed 10 rounds because I suspicious. I figured that seating that much more might cause some issues. Normally I shoot at my club one evening a week ( ODPL STYLE ) and I use a Campro 124 gr copper plated bullet with CFEpistol. Again I forget the grains used and would have to check my note book but because the Canik Rival has to be seated deeper than my shadow I knew that if I changed power and boolit to use the cast boolit I would have to figure out a load. The reason I wanted to switch to Win231 is because I simply have more of it and the same goes for the cast boolits as opposed to the store bought copper plated bullets.
As soon as I fired the first round with the Win231 last week I knew that the charge might be a bit much because the load I'm using for the CFE is far gentler. It was a big difference. I will have to work up as suggested. I'll start around 3grs and go up from there to see what works.

So much info on here from you guys that I realize now that I should have reached out here in the first place. Thanks so much to all for the information. It's awesome.

[dearslayer]

dearslayer: You mentioned that your using a bullet that's designed for powdercoating (no lube grooves). You also mentioned that the powder coating that you're using is going on a little thick, and you're having to seat the bullets deeper so that they will chamber properly. The first thing that popped into my mind is: what diameter are you sizing the bullets to? The nose shape of the bullet may require that the bullet be deep seated no matter what the sized diameter is; but if you're powder coating the bullets as cast and not sizing them it might be what's causing the chambering problems.

They are sized to .356 after powder coating.

[dearslayer]

Where, at least approximately, are you located? Might be a member near you that would let you use his/her chronograph. I'm in the OKC metro area, for example. I have my own chronograph because one of the other members here had one that was malfunctioning, and gave it to me to play with. I was able to get it working again. If you're near the Oklahoma City area, I'd be happy to lend it to you.

Bill

Thanks for that offer but I'm a long way away. I'm in Ontario Canada.

[gloob]

You should see an increase in pressure and velocity after shortening them, true. And if you feel a big difference in recoil, between otherwise similar pistols, you might need to back down the load for safety reasons.

While you had a chance of recovering those 10 empty cases, you could have looked at the rims for extractor marks. When extraction starts to get sticky, the slide grabs the case at 50 mph, but the case doesn't let go. So the slide pulls the entire gun a bit more, instead of just the empty case, and you can feel a sharp increase in felt recoil. This is sometimes the first reliable sign of overcharge, depending on the gun of course.

I've yet to see anything going on with primers. I have experienced sticky extraction and chewed up case rims. The recoil was harsh in that particular gun. Nothing too special in the one where it didn't cause this problem.

[dearslayer]

I feel this in my bones... I can remember my younger days of 300m target hits at the Rifle Qual in the Army. That 300m target didn't stand a chance. Or shooting 1" groups in a 4" K frame at 25yds with fixed "old school" sights. And now I need glasses to read street signs. Best advice I wish I would have listened to is to enjoy what I have while I have it. Because none of it lasts forever.

Oh boy do I feel the same. Whoever came up with the term golden years must have known something that I don't. My old eyes are not what they use to be and the aches and pains just get worst.

[dearslayer]

You should see an increase in pressure and velocity after shortening them, true. And if you feel a big difference in recoil, between otherwise similar pistols, you might need to back down the load for safety reasons.

While you had a chance of recovering those 10 empty cases, you could have looked at the rims for extractor marks. When extraction starts to get sticky, the slide grabs the case at 50 mph, but the case doesn't let go. So the slide pulls the entire gun a bit more, instead of just the empty case, and you can feel a sharp increase in felt recoil. This is sometimes the first reliable sign of overcharge, depending on the gun of course.

I've yet to see anything going on with primers. I have experienced sticky extraction and chewed up case rims.

Unfortunately I had picked up some 9mm range brass that morning and realized after the fact that I had thrown in my own empty cases so I couldn't check them. Normally I keep my cases separate just to check but i had just finished the night shift and that can definitely fog my brain.

[racepres]

if you understand what the chrono is telling you, it can keep you out of trouble.

Or... Ignore all that and Simply Go By The Book... I would never be without my Chronograph.. But, i may be Guilty of having a WildCat or Three!!!

[fredj338]

Oh boy do I feel the same. Whoever came up with the term golden years must have known something that I don't. My old eyes are not what they use to be and the aches and pains just get worst.
Again, where did you get your starting data? Powders are not interchangeable. CFE is NOT w231, not even close, 231 is way faster. That is why the load is hot, nothing really to do with seating depth.

[fredj338]

Or... Ignore all that and Simply Go By The Book... I would never be without my Chronograph.. But, i may be Guilty of having a WildCat or Three!!!
The issue with book data is few of us follow the data exactly. Bullets arent plug & play, case volumes vary, even primers can cause issues. So the chrono & understanding how to use the data, very useful in keeping one out of trouble.
I also load for several wildcats & obscure cartridges. With no or few data points, a chrono is pretty much a must to develop loads safely.

[dearslayer]

Again, where did you get your starting data? Powders are not interchangeable. CFE is NOT w231, not even close, 231 is way faster. That is why the load is hot, nothing really to do with seating depth.
I believe I got it from my old book of notes whereby I used 4gr of 231 for a 138gr HP in my CZ Shadow with an OAL of 1.110 but in the Canik I had to seat them much deeper to pass the plunk test. Seems that the Throat in the Canik is much shallower if that makes sense. I'm still learning. At any rate I won't be using 4gr anymore. I'll start at 3.2 and see how it goes. If I use data for a Campro Copper plated 147gr RN which is min 3.2 and a max of 3.7 would that be ok. Can the same data be used for cast versus copper plated or no?

[fredj338]

I believe I got it from my old book of notes whereby I used 4gr of 231 for a 138gr HP in my CZ Shadow with an OAL of 1.110 but in the Canik I had to seat them much deeper to pass the plunk test. Seems that the Throat in the Canik is much shallower if that makes sense. I'm still learning. At any rate I won't be using 4gr anymore. I'll start at 3.2 and see how it goes. If I use data for a Campro Copper plated 147gr RN which is min 3.2 and a max of 3.7 would that be ok. Can the same data be used for cast versus copper plated or no?
If 3.7gr is max with plated, it will be max with lead. Three load levels, lead, plated & jacketed, all give diff results. Bullets seldom are plug & play. Starting at max is a good way to kb a gun.

[dearslayer]

If 3.7gr is max with plated, it will be max with lead. Three load levels, lead, plated & jacketed, all give diff results. Bullets seldom are plug & play. Starting at max is a good way to kb a gun.

Dually noted. I'll do a few rounds at 3.2 and see how it works.

[Kosh75287]

There IS one indicator that I didn't see discussed yet, which is hardly precise, but it may be better than nothing. You can use slide velocity as AN indicator of over-pressure. Since the means whereby slide velocity is directly measured is likely as elaborate and arcane as measuring chamber pressure, an indirect indicator of it is the distance that the spent cases are ejected. The rationale is that higher chamber pressure engenders higher slide velocity, which results in the cases being ejected a greater distance.
This can be "standardized" somewhat by firing 10 - 12 rounds of factory ammunition from a bench, and noting the average distance that the brass are ejected. Using completely made up numbers, if factory rounds are thrown 8 + 1 ft., and the reloads are being thrown 10 + 1 ft., it's reasonable to conclude that the reload is hotter than factory fodder, and dropping the charge weight 0.1 - 0.2 gr. might be a good idea.
Now, if the reloads do not eject as far as factory rounds, it is no guarantee that they are not over pressure, but it's the way I'D bet. It is certainly possible for a reload to develop higher pressures without a significant increase in velocity. It is far less likely that higher chamber pressure will NOT result in higher slide velocity and greater ejection distances. This, AND velocity from a chronograph MAY keep you out of trouble.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

There IS one indicator that I didn't see discussed yet, which is hardly precise, but it may be better than nothing. You can use slide velocity as AN indicator of over-pressure. Since the means whereby slide velocity is directly measured is likely as elaborate and arcane as measuring chamber pressure, an indirect indicator of it is the distance that the spent cases are ejected. The rationale is that higher chamber pressure engenders higher slide velocity, which results in the cases being ejected a greater distance.
This can be "standardized" somewhat by firing 10 - 12 rounds of factory ammunition from a bench, and noting the average distance that the brass are ejected. Using completely made up numbers, if factory rounds are thrown 8 + 1 ft., and the reloads are being thrown 10 + 1 ft., it's reasonable to conclude that the reload is hotter than factory fodder, and dropping the charge weight 0.1 - 0.2 gr. might be a good idea.
Now, if the reloads do not eject as far as factory rounds, it is no guarantee that they are not over pressure, but it's the way I'D bet. It is certainly possible for a reload to develop higher pressures without a significant increase in velocity. It is far less likely that higher chamber pressure will NOT result in higher slide velocity and greater ejection distances. This, AND velocity from a chronograph MAY keep you out of trouble.

I kinda mentioned it in post 19, but you took the subject into much better detail than my little anecdote.

[Kosh75287]

Thanks, JonB, I stand corrected. It's entirely possible that I got the idea to chime in from reading your post, and my brain did not give you proper credit. It sometimes misses things, these days.

[dearslayer]

Well I loaded a few rounds with 3.2 grs of Win231 and it shoots much better. Less felt recoil ( by quite a bit actually ) and it appears to be fairly accurate. Groups were smaller than before. I forgot to take photos. I think I'll stick with the 3.2 for a couple of range sessions and go from there. It's difficult to gauge how any loaded round is doing just in one range trip for me anyway because I'm always coming off night shift and being tired doesn't help. I work steady nights and it's my best opportunity to go.

[dearslayer]

Well I've been using 3.2 for this load since my last post and it's been very good. Now for my next question... A hollow point bullet dropped from the same mold is about five grains difference in weight. Should I adjust my powder charge accordingly or will five grains lighter make a big difference? The hollow points are 138 grains and the solid flat tops that I've been using are 143 grains.

[BC17A]

That weight difference is negligible so your 3.2gn load would work fine.

[dearslayer]

That weight difference is negligible so your 3.2gn load would work fine.
I was thinking as much but I wanted to hear it from someone with more experience than myself. Thanks.

[Kosh75287]

Hodgdon's lists 3.0 - 3.4/W231/147 gr. jacketed at 1.100". As it stands you're a full grain over max, and 0.045" too short. Cut to 3.0/231/143 gr. and 1.055", then work up.

ADDENDUM: If you have any brass from the 4.4/W231/143 gr. load, compare their primers to those from a factory load. If they are much flatter, or cratered, or the dividing line between the where the primer cup ends and the primer hole starts is very thin or not like with factory loads, these are all excellent indicators that you are near, just at, or well into an excessive pressure end of the spectrum and should back down quickly

[rintinglen]

If:
in the same gun;
the same boolit;
in the same brass;
with the same load;
of the same powder;
but a shorter OAL,
gives you a higher velocity, you have increased the pressure. Perhaps to a dangerous level, and it does not take a much shorter length in 9mm to achieve this.

I have personally witnessed a Model 59 (459? 5904?--been a while) blow out the bottom of the magazine and crack both grips when a fledgling hand loader decided to go ahead and shoot a cartridge that had hung up on the ramp and driven a JHP deeper into the case. The case blew out just in front of the rim--just like a Glock "Smiley", only more so. Surprisingly, the gun, other than the mag and grips, still seemed to be functional and the shooter was only stung by the explosion but not seriously injured.

After that, I became much more attentive to COAL and much less concerned with trying to squeeze the last measure of possible power from my hand loads.

[OS OK]

Why not just get the chamber lead in that barrel tapered & run normal loads that function in everything else?

[KenH]

The OP mentioned he is developing loads for plinking. Given that I'd recommend starting low and then working up until the gun functions reliably. Then stop..
That is my thinking - since it's just for plinking there's no need for highest velocity possible.

[dearslayer]

Hodgdon's lists 3.0 - 3.4/W231/147 gr. jacketed at 1.100". As it stands you're a full grain over max, and 0.045" too short. Cut to 3.0/231/143 gr. and 1.055", then work up.

ADDENDUM: If you have any brass from the 4.4/W231/143 gr. load, compare their primers to those from a factory load. If they are much flatter, or cratered, or the dividing line between the where the primer cup ends and the primer hole starts is very thin or not like with factory loads, these are all excellent indicators that you are near, just at, or well into an excessive pressure end of the spectrum and should back down quickly
I don't have any brass with the 4.4. The 3.2 gr of Win231 has been working great since I posted this thread. The gun functions great and the load seems to be very accurate. The guys I shoot with have even joked that I must be practicing. I ran out of the 143 grain flat nose bullets that I cast but I still have several hundred of the hollow point 138 grain that were dropped from the same mold. I figured the five grain difference wouldn't really be enough to have to adjust the charge. I'll load up 10 with 3.2 and see how it shoots.

[gwpercle]

Signs of a "Hot" load :
1.) Hard extraction ... a range rod is needed to knock out the fired case , with a semi-auto the extractor may get damaged or rip the rim off the case but leave case stuck in chamber .
2.) New primers keep falling out the pockets ... expanded primer pockets are a sign you need to drop back on charge and trash those cases .
Gary

[charlie b]

...2.) New primers keep falling out the pockets ... expanded primer pockets are a sign you need to drop back on charge and trash those cases .
Gary

Depends. It does mean you need to trash the cases. May not mean the load is too hot. .223 cases are famous for expanding primer pockets after 4 or 5 reloads, even at a bit less than max. I finally bought Lapua brass so I could reload them more than 10 times at max loads.

[Barry54]

Well I've been using 3.2 for this load since my last post and it's been very good. Now for my next question... A hollow point bullet dropped from the same mold is about five grains difference in weight. Should I adjust my powder charge accordingly or will five grains lighter make a big difference? The hollow points are 138 grains and the solid flat tops that I've been using are 143 grains.

Richard Lee says it’s okay to use a LIGHTER bullet of the same type. So substituting the lighter lead hollow point would be permissible.

Don’t interchange lead bullet data and jacked bullet data. And especially don’t interchange solid bullet data such as Barnes or Lehigh bullets.

[dearslayer]

Richard Lee says it’s okay to use a LIGHTER bullet of the same type. So substituting the lighter lead hollow point would be permissible.

Don’t interchange lead bullet data and jacked bullet data. And especially don’t interchange solid bullet data such as Barnes or Lehigh bullets.
I loaded up about dozen rounds with the same charge of 3.2 and will try them out tomorrow night.