Question: Has anyone tried to 3d print a Nylon Burnside Case?

[littlef]

Question: I just picked up a Model of 1864 Burnside Carbine. I see that nylon cases used to be available, but from what I've read, the supplier seemed to not survive the covid downturns. My question is.... a 3d printer can print nylon. Has anyone attempted to 3d print a nylon case? I don't have a 3d printer, but the idea has always been intriguing. Designing a 3D printed Burnside case might be a project worthy of investing in a 3D printer. (But - I don't want to waste time and money, if its been tried, but didn't work.) If it would work, a case could be printed for pennies, versus $6-7 dollars each for brass.

[trails4u]

I have some nylon cases.... Would gladly donate one to someone in the 3D printing game here if they wanted to make a go of it!

[littlef]

I have some nylon cases.... Would gladly donate one to someone in the 3D printing game here if they wanted to make a go of it!

Nice, thanks. I might take you up on that offer eventually. I've been scouring the internet to see if anyone else has ever tried it, and if so, what problems did they have. It might not be worth it, if they immediately fail. I was talking to my brother, who's an engineer. His concern was that the rim layers could potentially delaminate under the pressures of the round firing. The polymer chains don't form across the layers of a 3d print (unlike a stronger injection molding process, which is homogenous) making that a weak point. But he said there's no way to really know without experimenting and trying.

[MrWolf]

I had to look up the Burnside carbine to understand what you were asking. Are you replacing the brace cone cartridge with a nylon case? If so, I don't think a 3d printed case would work as they are really not that strong due to how layers are printed. I don't have one but would someone with a resin printer be able to help. I have no idea if the rest material would be strong enough nor the impact when adding black powder and pressure to the mix. I am probably miss reading what you are asking, so...
Ron

[littlef]

Yes, that is what I'm asking. The Burnside carbine used a cone shaped brass case that held the powder and the lead projectile, and was then ignited using a separate musket cap. Brass cases are still available, but they are very expensive, ranging about $6 to $7 each, just for the brass. There was a company that was producing an alternative case, using nylon. Those were really inexpensive, but during covid it appears the company went out of business. I have the same concern about the strength of the bond between the individual layers of a 3d print being the weak point. Using resin could be a potential alternative. There's also 3d printing units that can print in brass, but I think that's big a jump in price. I'm looking to see if anyone has experimented with it. I think a few cases could be printed up, and experimented with, starting with just a powder charge and no projectile, and then tested using a roundball with 1/4 charge, 1/3 charge, 1/2 charge, etc. I think it could be safely tested secured in bench rest and a string. But I'm wanting to see if anyone has tried this. If it immediately fails, its not worth even working on.

[Lead pot]

You might look in youtube :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgB-p6IMZh4

[littlef]

You might look in youtube :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgB-p6IMZh4

Thats interesting, and troubling. There's some different dynamics when coming down from a 73 caliber shotshell to 54 caliber. In addition there's certainly strength added at the base of a conical shape versus a squared off flat plane base of a shotshell. In addition, the projectile is placed at the very end of a burnside case, which changes the equation...some. Even with that, the video demonstrates the weak point is absolutely in the adhesion of the 3d printed layers.

[Lead pot]

I would stick with the brass shells. You might check with Dixie, they have some in stock now and then.

[littlef]

I have some brass. but I haven't even fired it yet. Just messing around with it, the rim on one case is already destroyed. If I have to buy $6 brass every time I shoot, it'll just live in the back of the safe...or I'll just sell it.

[toot]

Dixie also sells a nylon chamber chamber ring that ax's as a gas seal, and is not a full size shell.

[littlef]

Dixie also sells a nylon chamber chamber ring that ax's as a gas seal, and is not a full size shell.

That's interesting. I don't see any such product on their website under burnside, chamber ring, or nylon. I'll have to do some more digging when I'm off work to see what I can find.

[StrawHat]

I have some brass. but I haven't even fired it yet. Just messing around with it, the rim on one case is already destroyed. If I have to buy $6 brass every time I shoot, it'll just live in the back of the safe...or I'll just sell it.

There is no rim on a Burnside case or cartridge. Can you post an image of what it is you are referencing?


Dixie also sells a nylon chamber chamber ring that ax's as a gas seal, and is not a full size shell.

That little chamber seal means your powder is in the chamber not contained in the cartridge. The Burnside has a sliding breech that helps loosen the fired case from the chamber walls. Using loose powder will gum up that feature and if not cleaned, ruin it.

Kevin

[littlef]

Here's the case. If you don't refer to where the brass ends at the mouth as a rim, I'm not sure what else you would call it?

310380

[StrawHat]

Mouth of the case.

The rim is what allows cartridges like the 38 S&W Special to chamber in a cylinder. The lack of rim is why the 45 ACP, needed moon clips to be extracted from S&W revolvers.

That chunk of brass, missing from the mouth of the Burnside case is no big deal. The gas seal is still intact and bullets do not need much crimp in a Burnside. Shoot it and enjoy it!

I have a 5th Model and it is a joy to shoot!

Kevin

[littlef]

Mouth of the case.

The rim is what allows cartridges like the 38 S&W Special to chamber in a cylinder. The lack of rim is why the 45 ACP, needed moon clips to be extracted from S&W revolvers.

That chunk of brass, missing from the mouth of the Burnside case is no big deal. The gas seal is still intact and bullets do not need much crimp in a Burnside. Shoot it and enjoy it!

I have a 5th Model and it is a joy to shoot!

Kevin

Looking forward to getting out to the range and trying it soon

[trails4u]

Back to the concept of a printed case...... Let's just say they fail upon firing as a starting point. Is that so bad? What would it cost to print them per case? If we change our thinking....and maybe think of a 3d printed burnside case in the way of a paper cartridge, is there a downside to this? As long as the gas seal holds up upon firing, are we maybe ok if the rest of the case fails? We're talking low pressure BP....so a 'case failure' in my mind, in a Burnside, really doesn't matter. As I think through it, the gas seal is the only part of the equation that really matters. Otherwise....it's effectively a muzzleloader with a case for convenience. The bugaboo might be extraction, and whether or not we could easily/effectively clear the chamber if a printed case came apart in many pieces...?

FWIW -- Have I lost my mind here??

[Scrounge]

I had to look up the Burnside carbine to understand what you were asking. Are you replacing the brace cone cartridge with a nylon case? If so, I don't think a 3d printed case would work as they are really not that strong due to how layers are printed. I don't have one but would someone with a resin printer be able to help. I have no idea if the rest material would be strong enough nor the impact when adding black powder and pressure to the mix. I am probably miss reading what you are asking, so...
Ron

Make your 3d print with ABS or another plastic that is soluble in solvent vapor, and try vapor smoothing on it. Acetone is the solvent of choice for ABS from what I read. https://all3dp.com/2/abs-acetone-smoothing-3d-print-vapor-smoothing/ & https://the3dprinterbee.com/how-to-smooth-abs-3d-prints-vapor-smoothing-step-by-step/ might be of use. 2nd link discusses why brushing and immersing 3d prints aren't recommended, too. Useful info.

Bill

[toot]

littlef, look under there section on reloading, brass shells, I believe that is where they are.?

[littlef]

Back to the concept of a printed case...... Let's just say they fail upon firing as a starting point. Is that so bad? What would it cost to print them per case? If we change our thinking....and maybe think of a 3d printed burnside case in the way of a paper cartridge, is there a downside to this? As long as the gas seal holds up upon firing, are we maybe ok if the rest of the case fails? We're talking low pressure BP....so a 'case failure' in my mind, in a Burnside, really doesn't matter. As I think through it, the gas seal is the only part of the equation that really matters. Otherwise....it's effectively a muzzleloader with a case for convenience. The bugaboo might be extraction, and whether or not we could easily/effectively clear the chamber if a printed case came apart in many pieces...?

FWIW -- Have I lost my mind here??

The downside is me investing in the expense of a 3d printer, and the time and effort to learn to create a printed case. That's why I asked if anyone has tried. The gas seal is really the only point for the case to fail. The rest is either supported by the breech block, or it goes down the barrel. A more important concern is a catastrophic failure could potentially damage the carbine... and whoever may be holding it. I think that type of failure is minimal, but it's definitely a point of concern. If I could get one safe shot out of each printed case, it would be worth the time and effort.

[littlef]

Make your 3d print with ABS or another plastic that is soluble in solvent vapor, and try vapor smoothing on it. Acetone is the solvent of choice for ABS from what I read. https://all3dp.com/2/abs-acetone-smoothing-3d-print-vapor-smoothing/ & https://the3dprinterbee.com/how-to-smooth-abs-3d-prints-vapor-smoothing-step-by-step/ might be of use. 2nd link discusses why brushing and immersing 3d prints aren't recommended, too. Useful info.

Bill

Thanks Scrounge. I just did a quick google on vapor smoothing. This is something I have never heard of. I'll do some more in depth reading. Good Idea for exploration.

[littlef]

Dixie has 2 pages of products in the brass case section. I still see nothing that is related to the burnside? If you have the link to the item I'll check it out. maybe I'm blind.

[TurnipEaterDown]

The concept of a printed case doesn't seem to differ that much in the discussion of a Burnside (black powder propellant) from the Federal Firestick.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/a-modernized-muzzleloader-traditions-nitrofire-federal-firestick/

I do not know what material Federal uses, or if it is 3D printable, but it seems that it is analogous to what is being asked about in thread here.

[littlef]

Its somewhat similar, but its still really different. The burnside was developed to try and solve the problem of the early breech loaders difficulty in sealing the gap between the breech block and the barrel. The burnside case has a round bulged mouth which is sandwiched between the breech block and the barrel, to create that seal. This would also be the weak point and the potential point of failure. I think its worth working on developing a 3d printed case. I'm researching 3d printers, and the strength of various filaments. I'm looking also looking into 3d printing in brass which is possible. I don't own a 3d printer, so I'm looking into buying or building one with the proper specs with a heated bed, and nozzle temps that could potentially accomplish this. When you 3d print, the plastic is not as homogenous as a molded product. The polymer chains do not span across the individual layers, so its inherently weaker. This is why I was asking if anyone has tried this. It might be a waste of time.