No lube grooves

[RonnieMilsurp]

My apologies if this has been answered elsewhere, I can't find any posts that ask this at least based on the titles.

I got a 401-200 flat nose to do hard casts for a 40 S&W and it has no lube groove. I don't plan on powder coating and I'm not set up to do it. Do I still lube it?

I'm brand new to casting if you couldn't tell!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

RonnieMilsurp,
Welcome to the forum.

You could tumble lube those.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?67654-Tumble-Lubing-Made-Easy-amp-Mess-Free

[Polymath]

I did up a bunch of 45 LC and just moly spray coated them. Worked fine. Lyman's spray lube for molds. Also use it it in making Black Magic tumble Lube.

[GregLaROCHE]

You need to lube it with something.

[popper]

Ben's Liquid Lube - ludmark liquid and alox. Few drops, roll around in plastic tube and let dry.

[gwpercle]

Tumble lube them with a liquid lube ... they may not have any grooves but that shouldn't matter .
Check the "stickies" for Liquid Lube recipe ... start with Lee Liquid Alox and test ... If not 100% successful then try different liquid lubes recipes until you find one that works .
Look at recipes for 45/45/10 and Ben's Liquid Lube ( BLL )...
there are many more ...

Good Luck and welcome to Castboolits !
Gary

[gloob]

After tumble lubing your plain bullets, run one through a sizing die and see what happens. Same thing will happen in the bore. When you run a lightly coated TL bullet through a sizing die, the bearing surfaces get scraped off... but the TL grooves pick up and fill with the lube.

What happens to the lube when you fire the plain bullet? I'd guess some of it travels with the base of the bullet and works like lube. Some of it may get left behind and simply combust and burn up in the barrel, behind the bullet. Tumble lubing a plain bullet will certainly work at low enough pressures but might be insufficient for higher pressures where what little lube you have may run out, prematurely.

In light 45 ACP or 38 special loads, spitting on the bullet might be sufficient lube. In hot 40 loads, you might run out of lube.

[gloob]

Grooveless bullets is where things started.
Then as velocity went up, pressure also increased. And we learned to add lube grooves.
Then we figure out how to make jacketed bullets.

Recently, we like to use epoxy or powder coatings on the bullet in lieu of a jacket. And we started making grooveless lead bullets for such things.

Just because a grooveless bullet with dry or tumble lube will work at low pressure doesn't mean it'll work in a normal 40SW load.

[popper]

I use a 165 PB in my 40sw, 2 coats of BLL works fine @ 950 fps. I even use it in BO @ 1500 fps, 170gr PB grooveless. Use about 6 drops per 30 or so bullets in a plastic deli meat container. Swirl a bunch to get coated, dump on wax paper or something and let DRY. Repeat. I use a 6" piece of weed whacker string to get the drops! I size first to keep lube out of the Lee but works either way. I made 1/2 plastic coke bottle of it maybe 5 yrs ago, still have 1/4 bottle left. Not nearly as smoky as Alox or Alox/paste wax. And NO cooking to make the lube. 50/50 mix and shake to get the settled stuff off the bottom of the bottle. Barrels are always shiny and clean.

[gloob]

It might work out, but the responses here are making it sound like a sure thing. And OP will likely be disappointed and might think he's doing it wrong.

If anyone were taking bets...

I'll put my house that Poppers grooveless BO bullets are PC'd or Hi-Tek'd. Or GC'd. And coatings are the main reason grooveless molds and cast bullets have hit the market, at all.

And I'll go double or nothing that OP's bullets will be awful with TL at any average loading for 40SW or 10mm.

At a certain pressure, I'm sure you need the lube grooves, and that's why we put them on there. Tumble lube technology hasn't changed enough since then, despite w/e concoction you swear by. Say you and your buddy are late for a train, and it has started to leave the station. So you look at each other and you make a run for it. You jump and grab onto the ladder between the last two cars. Your buddy grabs onto the side of the last car. Then as the train picks up speed, it enters a tight tunnel. You swing into the space between the cars. Your buddy gets scraped off on the edge of the tunnel and is left behind. Your buddy is tumble lube on a grooveless bullet, getting scraped off and left behind as the bullet squeezes into the bore. Lube doesn't do what you need it to unless it's where it needs to be.

Should OP not be pleased with TL, I would guess 401 grooveless bullets would be a good candidate to try wax checks. There's no space between the train cars. But you can still hitch a ride on the back of the train. I should throw in a caution that you have very little case capacity with a 200 grain bullet in a 40SW case, though.


I'm a glutton for punishment, of late. So I'll add that smokiness in closed breech firearms has everything to do with a good seal and not the specific ingredients of the lube. If your bullet fills the chamber mouth and leade good enough so that you don't get a big puff of half burnt lube exiting before the bullet plugs the bore, and then you get a good seal the rest of the way, you'll have minimal to no smoke in a closed breech firearm like any rifle or locked breech pistol. Most of the lube that doesn't exit with the bullet, still in the grooves, will combust fully and cleanly.

My bullets don't smoke in those firearms, either. Even rapidfiring pistols in an indoor range, less smoke than factory jacketed/plated Remington green box.

The only two times I had any noticeable smoke in a locked breech firearm using TL was with case-swaged 9mm that fouled badly and started going off target by 30 yards and when using 40 cases (either loaded to 40SW OAL or just shy of 10mm OAL) in my 10mm. I was confused by the claims of reduced smoke from coatings. There's supposed to be smoke? Until I first reloaded cast bullets in blowback pistols and revolvers.

[jdgabbard]

I agree with the others. You should be tumble lube them. If you don't want to mess with making your own, just buy some of Lee' Liquid Alox and be done with it. It does help to dilute it a little with some mineral spirits.

[popper]

I have grooveless 145gr PB and 145gr GCd. Higher fps I PC but the PB works fine to 1500ish with just BLL.