Steel Shot and older guns?

[Krag 1901]

My nephew, who shoots Ducks told me the other day that his guns couldn't shoot steel shot. He inferred that steel shot would make his guns explode! I doubt any of his guns are older than ~1960's.

Is this a fact or is he misinformed, (probably very likely, knowing him).

He seemed to think that lead shot would deform in the barrel/choke and allow the shot to pass, but steel shot column would not deform so it would blow up his barrel! I don't see that that is possible as steel shot should flow around as easy as lead shot.

So who's correct ?

[M-Tecs]

He mostly is correct. It will not blow the barrel up but it can damage the chokes on older guns. For this purpose older is about pre-1980 however Remington says that all of their barrels made after 1950 are steel shot compatible if they are choked modified or more open. So, by that standard, the full choked barrel would not be steel shot compatible.

https://www.browning.com/support/faq/shoot-steel-shot.html

https://waterfowlchoke.com/5-reasons-why-steel-shot-is-bad-for-your-shotgun/#:~:text=One%20of%20the%20leading%20causes%20of%20 steel%20shot,point%20where%20it%20causes%20damage% 20to%20the%20barrel.

https://chuckhawks.com/steel_shot.htm

https://www.fieldandstream.com/guns/shooting-steel-through-old-shotguns-approved

[Minerat]

I won't shoot steel in any of my old full chock guns. Only modified or IC if in a screw in chock gun. When steel first came into use Winchester warned against using it in the older guns or any with a tighter choke the modified. My experience is that a modified with steel shot is equal to a full with lead.

[Polymath]

Depend on the choke. Most guys who shoot steel tend to go for Improved or modified chokes. So with my full choke Win 1200 the choke starts about 2" back from the muzzle. I only shoot lead in it. What I think he is concerned about is called bridging where two pellets get up side by side and block(bridge) the choke. Lead will give a little, but steel won't.
Shooting steel needs to have larger ball size to achieve the same lethality as lead. So if you shoot ducks (long ago)with #4 lead, you would need a #2 steel to meet the need. You may get away with shooting steel in a full choke a few times or the very next shell may split the muzzle. I don't take the chance.
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[Krag 1901]

Interesting. I would not have thought it true so I asked the 'experts' here. I don't shoot shotguns much any more, after my Trap days.

[BLAHUT]

Steel won't blow up the barrel, will just ruin a tighter choke, full or extra full will be recked, modified might pass, cylinder will work, when buying a used shot gun, a dime held in the end of the barrel on edge and rotated will show if the barrel is egg shaped, if full choked..

[megasupermagnum]

One thing you will find is that 10 people will have shot a particular old gun without any problems, and then 1 will have a bulged choke. What was the difference? It's hard to say with all the variables. Older guns tend to have softer steel, tighter chokes, and thinner barrels, but there are a ton of exceptions to that. The best example I have is a Remington 1148 which is a 1950's gun. The barrel on that is paper thin, thinner than anything you will find today. The full choke barrel was fired with steel shot, and while it is perfectly shootable, but the damage to the forcing cone is there, and the choke was bulged. I cut it off and turned it into a slug barrel.

The other thing might be the ammo. If all you are shooting is 1 1/8oz #3 steel at 1300 fps, it's not nearly as tough on barrels as a 1 1/4 oz 1600 fps BB steel load. My opinion is I will not shoot steel shot in any shotgun pre 1991, unless I'm not that concerned with it. If it's a dirt cheap bolt, or an H&R single shot, I don't worry. Most will say don't shoot steel through a choke tighter than modified. Again, I would only do that if the barrel was reasonably thick. I also have a 1940's era Savage 430 O/U, and the OD of those barrels are the same as the OD of a modern choke tube. That's how thin they are. I would never shoot steel shot in that gun.

No, steel shot is not dangerous to a shooter. No, it does not flow as easy as lead. It is the hardest thing you can shoot in your barrel. Slugs are easier on barrels than steel shot. Large steel shot can bridge and damage even modern shotguns. That's why you almost never see sizes bigger than BBB in 12 gauge, T in 10 gauge, and #2 in 20 gauge anymore.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I just cut an 30" FC A5 barrel to 20" with the intention of having Rem Chokes installed. Rude awakening when we found out the wall thickness was not enough to thread. So now I have a 20" A5 barrel that is "Skeet" choked at .725 ID.

I have no reservations about running Steel Shot thru this barrel as there is no constriction, the barrel was bored tight to begin with so it is .725 the full length. Kind of bummed I didn't get my Choke Tubes as the Rifled one was my main reason for doing this. I needed .860 OD to have sufficient wall thickness to do the Rem Chokes. Existing OD is .810 so the walls would collapse when bored for the Choke Tubes.

For what I use the gun for it will work, just not as well as I had hoped.

As far as the steel shot issue the problem arises when there is an abrupt choke like a Full or more that tries to squeeze the payload down. Steel won't compress or distort like lead does so it wants to beat it's way thru in which case the barrel must distort so as to accommodate the solid plug being forced thru.

Newer barrels are made of stronger steel and can take it . Also newer Choke Profiles are not as abrupt as older ones.

Randy

[M-Tecs]

I just cut an 30" FC A5 barrel to 20" with the intention of having Rem Chokes installed. Rude awakening when we found out the wall thickness was not enough to thread. So now I have a 20" A5 barrel that is "Skeet" choked at .725 ID.

I have no reservations about running Steel Shot thru this barrel as there is no constriction, the barrel was bored tight to begin with so it is .725 the full length. Kind of bummed I didn't get my Choke tubes as the Rifled one was my main reason for doing this. I needed .860 to have sufficient wall thickness to do the Rem Chokes. OD is .810 so the walls would collapse when bored for the choke tubes.

For what I use the gun for it will work, just not as well as I had hoped.

Randy

It's more work but thin-walled barrels can be swaged up for choke tubes. It was very common at one time. Stan Baker did one for me in the mid 80's by belling out the last couple inches of the barrel and threading it for his custom Winchoke threaded chokes.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I was looking at Silver Soldering a Sleeve onto the barrel and threading that but trying to get the entrance to the choke tube directly on the end of the barrel was going to be hit and miss.

How do you contact Stan Baker? I'd like to talk to him?

Randy

[M-Tecs]

Stan Baker passed about a dozen years ago. If I remember correctly Brownell's sold the expansion tooling to do that type of choke. Give them a call. They might still have instructions or advise. I've never did one myself but if I remember correctly the expansion tool looked like a tapered expansion lathe mandrel.

Stan Baker was the primary force behind the back bore trend.

Briley currently has the market cornered on thin wall choke tubes. They might be worth calling.

[BLAHUT]

My nephew, who shoots Ducks told me the other day that his guns couldn't shoot steel shot. He inferred that steel shot would make his guns explode! I doubt any of his guns are older than ~1960's.

Is this a fact or is he misinformed, (probably very likely, knowing him).

He seemed to think that lead shot would deform in the barrel/choke and allow the shot to pass, but steel shot column would not deform so it would blow up his barrel! I don't see that that is possible as steel shot should flow around as easy as lead shot.

So who's correct ?

He wants to stay with an older shot gun ? He can use bismuth, almost the same weight as lead, same shot size as lead for ducks of geese, or if there is enough steel in the end of his barrel, he can have screw in chokes installed ??

[Minerat]

Check with Arts Gun Shop. They do everything A5

https://artsgunshop.com/

[Adam Helmer]

I just bought a run-of-the mill pump 12 gauge to shoot steel shells. I will never shoot steel out of my beloved Belgian Sweet 16, my old Winchester 101 or my Browning O/U.

Adam

[Milky Duck]

if you obey a couple of rules you should be fine..
#1 keep the payload down to or below 1 1/8th oz the 30-32grn loadings kill ducks n geese just fine
#2 keep the shot size down to #3 or below...now for us down unders thats 2 shot sizes below #BB the old std shell in lead days was a 1 1/4oz load of #4 shot..pretty sure your lot call that a #5
the theory behind those two rules is the shot bunches up at the choke and can "bridge" and cause a bulge.... basically a bottleneck/trafficjam where pellats all bunch up and cant squeaze out together,lead would deform,steel doesnt so it has to wiggle itself around smaller shot and lighter payload gives it the room to do so.
for what its worth I will use this combo happily in a full choked bakail .

[Golfswithwolves]

I can't see adequate reason to want to shoot steel (or even harder) shot in older shotguns. These were built with the intention of shooting lead shot, so for me bismuth ammo is the way to go when lead is not allowed. If a hunter can't bear the thought of spending for the cost of bismuth then I reckon he should trade off the classic shotgun for a modern hi-tech contraption with a heavy enough barrel to handle the steel rounds.

[Johnch]

I bought a Winchester 97 about 20 years ago from a Uncle
He about gave it to me as I was the only one in the family that hunted

It needed a LOT of cleaning
But I noticed a ever so slight ring bulge in the barrel where I figured the choke would have started
Took the 97 to a gunsmith and he took one look at the barrel and told me someone had been shooting steel shot in it
He checked and I now had a Modified choked 30" Win 97
He also told me the barrel was OK to shoot

But several years ago I sold it to a cowboy action shooter

Hated to , but sometime I do a little safe cleaning
As some times I really don't need or want a gun

John

[pietro]

some times I really don't need or want a gun

John



Repent, oh ye sinner ! ! :bigsmyl2:

[Texas by God]

Is the fine for using lead shot less than a box of Bismuth shotshells???
Asking for a friend[emoji16]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dogrunner]

Dumb question but just how does an enforcement officer determine if bismuth is in fact what's in your reloads?

[trapper9260]

I have a 10ga sxs and at the time when steel came out for water fowl ,the gun was Full on both barrels and then I got in touch with a gun smith about it and he said that the old guns was down value at the time because of the change that use to be goose guns and told him about my and he said bring it down and I did and he looked at it and said he can dix it to shoot steel with out a problem and he put it to IC and told me that I just increase the value of the gun, That gun is good for about 60 yards and I did not lost the distance with it . So you can not blow up the gun like stated but will ruin the barrel if it is not the right choke .

[megasupermagnum]

I have a 10ga sxs and at the time when steel came out for water fowl ,the gun was Full on both barrels and then I got in touch with a gun smith about it and he said that the old guns was down value at the time because of the change that use to be goose guns and told him about my and he said bring it down and I did and he looked at it and said he can dix it to shoot steel with out a problem and he put it to IC and told me that I just increase the value of the gun, That gun is good for about 60 yards and I did not lost the distance with it . So you can not blow up the gun like stated but will ruin the barrel if it is not the right choke .

You got robbed. The value is now less, and no, you can't make 60 yard shots with steel. You can't even do it with lead now that you opened it to ic choke. I hope it is just a Spanish import.

[Rapier]

I have gotten in several old fixed choke, full, Browning A-5s that people have shot 2 3/4" Nitro Mags in with steel shot or buck shot. It takes a good bit of work to fix them, if the can be repaired.
Last one had 1/4" blown out of the top of the receiver, a 3/8" crack in the receiver behind the ejection port, both tangs cracked and the receiver front bulged. Owner called, it that Browning done yet....yep it was done when you brought it in.
This is another Daddy's gun taken duck hunting with a fixed full choke. This is the forearm shattered, butt stock was broken, end to end, can not get it to load. Took a bit to repair it to working order and a re-finish to match, with old dings for history.
Suggest you not shoot steel in an old fixed choke gun.

[megasupermagnum]

I have gotten in several old fixed choke, full, Browning A-5s that people have shot 2 3/4" Nitro Mags in with steel shot or buck shot. It takes a good bit of work to fix them, if the can be repaired.
Last one had 1/4" blown out of the top of the receiver, a 3/8" crack in the receiver behind the ejection port, both tangs cracked and the receiver front bulged. Owner called, it that Browning done yet....yep it was done when you brought it in.
This is another Daddy's gun taken duck hunting with a fixed full choke. This is the forearm shattered, butt stock was broken, end to end, can not get it to load. Took a bit to repair it to working order and a re-finish to match, with old dings for history.
Suggest you not shoot steel in an old fixed choke gun.

That did not happen from just a steel shot load. Something more went on.

[Edward]

That did not happen from just a steel shot load. Something more went on.

Guess you've done gun smith work too Huh?

[megasupermagnum]

Guess you've done gun smith work too Huh?

You don't blow out the top of a receiver and crack wood because you are shooting steel down your barrel. You don't need to be a gunsmith to figure that out. It was either a gun not put together right, or ammo that is loaded wildly above maximum.

[Milky Duck]

the remington hypersonic loads would possibly do that...those things are wickedly hot. but agree the damage MOST folks were talking about was bulging at choke,the action etc getting poked could well be from HUGE increase in velocity...surely that must go in both direction??? bit like how the stinger rounds in .22lr caused issues in semiautomatic rifles 30 years ago,the bolt slamming back faster THAN DESIGNED FOR was the issue...we all know about changing gas settings etc in semis now if going to use trap/skeet type loads...thats adjusting system to work with low pressure/velocity the damage shown looks to me like opposite effect......the system isnt adjusted/cant be adjusted/didnt handle higher pressure/velocity
I have only ever short shucked a pump action 4-5 times in 10 years of usage..that was all using hypersonic loads,they were just wrong on so many levels for me.yet they are fine in gas operated semi........ load is suited to action.

[megasupermagnum]

the remington hypersonic loads would possibly do that...those things are wickedly hot. but agree the damage MOST folks were talking about was bulging at choke,the action etc getting poked could well be from HUGE increase in velocity...surely that must go in both direction??? bit like how the stinger rounds in .22lr caused issues in semiautomatic rifles 30 years ago,the bolt slamming back faster THAN DESIGNED FOR was the issue...we all know about changing gas settings etc in semis now if going to use trap/skeet type loads...thats adjusting system to work with low pressure/velocity the damage shown looks to me like opposite effect......the system isnt adjusted/cant be adjusted/didnt handle higher pressure/velocity
I have only ever short shucked a pump action 4-5 times in 10 years of usage..that was all using hypersonic loads,they were just wrong on so many levels for me.yet they are fine in gas operated semi........ load is suited to action.

I guess Hypersonics have a chance of doing that. Still if you compare most steel loads such as 2 3/4" 1 1/8 oz at 1375 fps, how is that any different than the old classic field load 2 3/4" 1 1/4 oz 1330 fps that the A5 was built for. I still maintain either the gun was put together wrong, or we are looking at something else. The type of shot you send down the barrel does not effect your receiver or stocks, period. It only effects your barrel.

[M_59]

Shooting a quantity of big shot (2's, BB's) in an older gun will bulge the choke as well.