Gobekli Tepe

[Good Cheer]

Pretty much ever since Gobekli Tepe became popularized I'd wondered about the watchers being involved in people creating the site and with what went on there. This morning bumped into some discussions by people who have been thinking about it. Enjoying listening while working in the hobby room. :)

https://www.youtube.com/@FringePop321/videos

[ioon44]

What I wonder about Gobekli Tepe is, Why it was buried?

[Winger Ed.]

What I wonder about Gobekli Tepe is, Why it was buried?

Archeology types figure there was an event around 12,000 years ago that pretty much wiped out human civilization.
We were taught in school the earth slowly evolved into what it is now.
There is evidence showing it was more nearly shaped and changed through incredible events. Some of short duration.
Some would leave the earth looking like a totally different place than it was before the event.

One example is the Grand Canyon. We were taught it formed over millions of years.
Rock weathering that is fairly even from the top to the bottom of it disputes that.
One theory is it was made in a few weeks when something caused the last Ice Age to end suddenly

A prediction of what can happen if--- or whenever the earth suddenly shifts on its axis:
The poles change, and if the earth does something sudden, like in a day or two- the oceans react more slowly.
If the earth moves, and the water has to catch up, the 'slosh' can create something like tsunami waves well over a mile high.
Such a wave, or waves, could theoretically wash over an entire continent.

With all the dirt & rubble such a wave would carry could explain a lot about the buried cities and lost civilizations in human history.
It would suggest that sudden effects of nature buried all those cities and ruins, not people.
Another theory is that such events have happened several times in human history.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

A mile high wave......gosh--I'm only at 4.747 ft. elevation! Better take my canoe out of storage. :wink:

DG

[Winger Ed.]

A mile high wave......gosh--I'm only at 4.747 ft. elevation! Better take my canoe out of storage. :wink:

We just think we have had natural disasters in our known history.
They're nothing compared to what has happened in what I call- 'back when the Bible was being written', and before.
Like where the Great Lakes are now---- the ground is still rebounding up from when the ice there was at least a mile thick.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Gee, Ed, you're not your usual jocular self today. O.K.--if we want to be serious, I agree that there have been immense, almost incomprehensible geological/climatic/astrological events in the past.

I live about 15 miles from Crater Lake, OR, which is just a huge, deep hole in the ground left over from when an immense volcano blew it's top. Everything around here that isn't a pine tree is volcanic. The soil is pumice, the rocks are compressed volcanic ash or what they call volcanic bombs--lava. Some are very light, some are very heavy. There are vertically upward road embankments where one can see layer after layer of ash and volcanic rock in distinct layers. The entire Cascade Mountain Range is just a string of one after another extinct (?) volcanos.

Not here, but in other parts of the country the fossil record positively establishes that things such as dinosaurs once lived which do not live today. To me, all of this gives the great lie to the Earth Warming/Earth Cooling/Climate Change people's various constantly changing theories and dire predictions. 12,000 years is nothing at all to Mother Earth.

DG

[Winger Ed.]

Gee, Ed, you're not your usual jocular self today. O.K.--if we want to be serious, I agree that there have been immense, almost incomprehensible geological/climatic/astrological events in the past.
DG

Oh yeah, only preachers are allowed to make jokes in church.

Anyway: Events in ancient history and 'back in the Bible days' have always fascinated me.
And almost all the stuff we were taught that has been more or less proven to be just wrong, or omitted.

I also find some of what is being taught now to be laughable, and hard to imagine even the soft heads believing it.
Like the extinction of pre-ice age creatures, and the death of various civilizations to have all been caused by human activities
such as over hunting and clear cutting forests & jungles caused planet changing global warming.

I'm no volcano expert---- I don't even play one on TV.
But I don't think any volcano is truly extinct or dead.
When a hole or crack in the earth's crust creates one, it never really heals, but always leaves a weak spot like
us when we have a broken bone or something. Sure, new ones come along, but old ones still seem to be
prone to erupt again sometime.

That may be what's in the early stage of happening again out there at Yellowstone national park.
It had a couple of eruptions so big and so long ago,
the evidence of them wasn't found or believed until not too many years ago.

[Good Cheer]

What I wonder about Gobekli Tepe is, Why it was buried?

I've asked myself the same question. The archaeologists say the digs show that the people there filled in the buildings and covered them. And, that it happened after centuries of use. One scenario on that I've pondered is that maybe the people did that when the overlords were removed but I really don't have anything yet to go on.

[ioon44]

Another question, Should it have stayed buried?

[slim1836]

Watch out when Yellowstone blows its lid.

Slim

[Good Cheer]

It wasn't water that filled in the buildings. Or a volcano. Why people did it is a great big mystery.

[ascast]

Archeology types figure there was an event around 12,000 years ago that pretty much wiped out human civilization.
We were taught in school the earth slowly evolved into what it is now.
There is evidence showing it was more nearly shaped and changed through incredible events. Some of short duration.
Some would leave the earth looking like a totally different place than it was before the event.

One example is the Grand Canyon. We were taught it formed over millions of years.
Rock weathering that is fairly even from the top to the bottom of it disputes that.
One theory is it was made in a few weeks when something caused the last Ice Age to end suddenly

A prediction of what can happen if--- or whenever the earth suddenly shifts on its axis:
The poles change, and if the earth does something sudden, like in a day or two- the oceans react more slowly.
If the earth moves, and the water has to catch up, the 'slosh' can create something like tsunami waves well over a mile high.
Such a wave, or waves, could theoretically wash over an entire continent.

With all the dirt & rubble such a wave would carry could explain a lot about the buried cities and lost civilizations in human history.
It would suggest that sudden effects of nature buried all those cities and ruins, not people.
Another theory is that such events have happened several times in human history.

I think that was the Dryus Minor. A meteor or comet hit the ice shield in the great Lakes ares. The ice took the impact so no crater is visible. However, it did alter water drainage and ultimately the Atlantic currents, which brought on a minor ice age, which halted/slowed the then melting ice age.
On a different time line, some guy found flint spear points in a ceremonial arrangement in France. He found the same in Virginia. At both sites he found spherites (spelling) which were chemically identical. Spherites are microscopic balls of iron or other stuff which are formed high in the atmosphere as a meteor melts from the heat. There are much like MIG welding splash only micro small. This guy dates the spears points and spherites to about 40,000 years ago. Apparently the ice edge ran from Virginia to lower France at that time.
Several really old skeletons have been found in North America dating back well before Columbus. They are European not Asian.
Interesting stuff.

[Winger Ed.]

Several really old skeletons have been found in North America dating back well before Columbus. They are European not Asian.
Interesting stuff.

They got around. There is a dig in China where some ancient people's remains & such were found.
When they discovered the bodies had beards, blue eyes, and red hair, the Chinese govt. shut it down.
The ancient people there were the wrong color.

There was a sea going civilization way back in the olden days.
It helps explain why similar pyramids and the giant stone block buildings look very similar all over the world.
One reason the Spanish were so well received in South America and Mexico at first was because the people living there were waiting
for people who looked like them to come back.


Wave action and flowing water will fill any low spot in with dirt and rocks--not just water.
A giant wave pushes and carries along all sorts of rubble and it settles when the water slows down and recedes.
On our NW coast there are rocks the size of a house that rolled along and were left on top of hills by tusnami waves
only a few hundred feet high. Simple/normal wave action constantly covers and uncovers old ship wrecks
on our own coast line.

Further evidence of the giant waves is in the number and size of above ground salt deposits around the world.
They were left when inland lakes of ocean water evaporated.
Floods in recent years in S. America have buried entire cities in mud within a few days and left few survivors..

No matter how advanced ancient civilizations were, they were also rather fragile.
Things that came along like a 100 year drought, several years of floods, deadly epidemics, an ice age,
the sea level rise a few hundred feet in a short time, total war from their neighbors, etc.---
When things like that happened on a global scale,,, they didn't stand a chance.

[HWooldridge]

I seem to remember the Chinese find of bodies with European features was carbon dated to the time of Marco Polo. And even though he got the credit, it's a sure bet that other people were wandering around since time immemorial; humans have that explorer gene deeply imbedded, or at least modern peoples - I suspect Neanderthal did not wander around as much, depending on the availability of food - but evidence of Neanderthal on the earth goes back much further than modern humans.

And you are quite right about the fragility of life and society...the Mayan civilization is a good example of what can go wrong in a relatively short time.

[1hole]

I'm no "scientist" but I'm not scientifically ignorant either. I can see that our hyperbolic Algore and cute little girl Thune idiots are wrong. Trust me fellows, Miami and Manhattan are safe from flooding, there is need for anyone to run to the mountains to avoid being drowned in massive rising seas.

To the Chicken Littles who do fear that global seas will rise and drown us all I ask, "Are you not puzzled by the fact that scary hot seas are said to be rising on some islands but ... not on others? "Follow that by, "What do you not know about the science of plate tectonics?"

My scientific point being that we're told earth's surface is a layer of thick, massive continental plates that float on a liquid magma core. The plates are said to slowly shift against each other. And they're obviously great heat sinks. It makes sense that such huge plates will continue to float while slowly rising and falling independent of any tiny (silly fractions of a single degree actually) surface air temperature variation.

If all that is so, and I do believe it is, huge chunks of continental land have always been sliding along while rising or falling a few inches over each other for centuries with no foolish connection to polar ice supposedly melting because of our smelly belches, foul gas powered cars and stinking cow pharts!

Nothing will change the minds of group-think loonies but I've not yet had any knowledgeable global warming believer challenge any part of that argument.

In closing Mr. Gebirgsiogeri (Post #4), anyone who tells you scientists can precisely measure the height of any point on earth at 4.474 feet above sea level (within +/- .001 feet?) will probably lie to you about other things too! :)

[Good Cheer]

PBS had a show on that got into the work of an archaeologists who specialized in textiles, someone that had been deeply involved. I'll go look.

Found this about the 3000 year old red heads. But no fabrics.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/chinamum/taklamakan.html

Oh, and way back when those people were buriying their dead in ark style graves even though living in the desert. Cool.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/bronze-age-mummies-in-china-were-part-of-mysterious-ancient-group-180978953/

Textiles. Bingo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummies

The archaeologist is even on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUvB0lD8E5M

[Winger Ed.]

To the Chicken Littles who do fear that global seas will rise and drown us all I ask, "Are you not puzzled by the fact that scary hot seas are said to be rising on some islands but ... not on others?

I have entertained myself by trolling some of those folks.
When they'd be wringing their hands about the sea level rising at an island somewhere and were all worried-

I'd tell 'em that as long as the sea level only rose there, and not at some beach where I wanted to go, I was OK with it.

[Good Cheer]

It's the devil's due. We live in a time when people can make oceans destroy their enemies.

[Cris T]

This guy does a good job with ancient stuff:

https://youtu.be/p2tvzNsPt8o

[Winger Ed.]

The quick research on the place says the people were hunter/gathers. Very believable.
But then they settled there and all of a sudden knew how to farm and build heavy stone structures?

It brings up the question of how did they learn so much, so fast,,, is the time line wrong,
or; did some survivor(s) from another more advanced tribe/civilization teach them after a natural disaster?

[Good Cheer]

This guy does a good job with ancient stuff:

https://youtu.be/p2tvzNsPt8o

Megalithomania really is a cool bunch of information to dive into.
Thanks for the link to that presentation.

[Gobeyond]

The Bible says that Cains son started the Bronze Age about 3500 bc. The flood was about 2200 bc. It really changed earth and made it look older. Gods influence and a discovery could change things fast. Think how fast things change now.

[Good Cheer]

In the middle and late '90's my father and I would sit at the kitchen counter with cups of coffee, solving the problems of the world and catching up. One of the topics we revisited several times was how information from various disciplines kept pointing to a time of about 12,000 years ago, that something stupendously catastrophic had happened to planet Earth. The Younger Dryas impact theory came along and started to flesh out an idea of what it could have been. Established scientists initially rejected the idea with haste, later eating crow and then of course the possible impact sight was found in Greenland. That was all well and good, but could the Greenland impact account for the changes ascribed to that point in time? Didn't look like it. Well, I bumped into this fellow's work on trying to map the effects of an impact on the North American ice sheath. I enjoyed it and hope someone else will too.
https://www.youtube.com/@Antonio_Zamora/featured

[Winger Ed.]

I've always been fascinated by that ancient history.
There is ideas that some disaster happened about 12,000 years ago, and some say it was more like 20-odd thousand years ago.
I wonder if the time lines are a little off, and both are right.

I've wondered about the buried cities in ancient Egypt and the Middle East.
I can see them abandoning a city for one reason or another, but why bury them?
That's an incredible amount of work just to leave them and go somewhere else.
If they left due to drought or disease-- why bother?

However; when excavated, they aren't buried in small particles of wind blown sand, but with the various sizes of rock, dirt,
and sand that would have washed along in a great tsunami wave--- which some scientist types think could have been a mile high.
Like floods & such we have now- it isn't just water that they bring. There's all sorts of mud, gravel, & trash that comes with them.
In the American North West there is big boulders sitting on top of hills & mountains.
About the only way they could get there is to be washed along by a really big wave.
If that happened 20-something thousand years ago, it kind of fits with how ancient cities could get fairly uniformly buried all at once.

If the oceans came and washed more or less over the continents, then eventually the big puddles/lakes of sea water evaporated.
Certainly the landscape would have changed, and there would be very few survivors. Civilization would have to restart.
That would also help explain the large salt deposits on top of the ground all over the world.

[Good Cheer]

Ed, the other day another something I wasn't familiar with popped up, a meteor strike in the Indian Ocean that made a 30 kilometer wide crater and brought tidal wave inundations of several coast lines (South America, Africa, Indonesia, Australia) and a deluge of rain spreading around the world. Currently the guesses as to when are around 6000 year ago.
https://www.youtube.com/@OzGeographics/videos

With the location and angle of impact for the Chicxulub strike, the Younger Dryas strikes, and now this Burckle strike; as a friend of mine once remarked, God is the perfect marksman.

[mpkunz607]

A really good book on the subject of the Watchers by the late Michael Heiser is "Unseen Realm -Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible". Dr. Heiser was a seminary professor and his untimely death from pancreatic cancer was only a few weeks ago. Many brief excerpts from his teaching sessions are posted on YouTube.

[Good Cheer]

Heiser's Reversing Hermon, Enoch, The Watchers & The Forgotten Mission Of Jesus Christ is one of the books bedside. I'm about ready to go back to working my way through it.

[jdsingleshot]

I had to write a short paper for a 101-level archaeology class and chose to do it on Gobekli Tepe. My conclusion was that the site was as likely to have been a prehistoric restaurant as a place of worship. 8-)

[Winger Ed.]

I had to write a short paper for a 101-level archaeology class and chose to do it on Gobekli Tepe. My conclusion was that the site was as likely to have been a prehistoric restaurant as a place of worship. 8-)

You need to get with the program. And I trust you didn't get a very good grade on that.
Everybody knows that ALL ancient ruins that aren't obviously a commoner's home,
are either a temple, or a tomb for royalty.:bigsmyl2:

[Good Cheer]

It's just going to get funner as more is uncovered.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xcunh_SMuRQ

[Winger Ed.]

The Why Files guy is good. Another on youtube is a channel called 'Bright Insights'.
It's done by a guy that served in the Middle East and then went back over there looking at the ancient civilization stuff.
He doesn't really try to solve any mysteries as he just points out things, and does sort of a 'what do you think about this'?.

He also has pictures of himself in full battle gear when he was there in some of the ancient Sumerian buildings.
Then he shows himself in them now---- after the Taliban reduced them to piles of rubble.

[Good Cheer]

Thanks for heads up, will look up Bright Insights.

[OS OK]

Heiser's Reversing Hermon, Enoch, The Watchers & The Forgotten Mission Of Jesus Christ is one of the books bedside. I'm about ready to go back to working my way through it.

Somewhere I have it in my mind that back 20K years prior to the Flood the Watchers were good angels, like pre-fallen (?) and God assigned them here, like their duty station with recovering humanity. In places like Gobleki Tepe and many other locations around the world, these were training centers...teaching farming, civics, etc and such, Like they were re-establishing the Earth again from some catastrophic event even farther back in time. Like gathering roaming tribes, hunter gatherers and teaching them to work the soil and learn to live together & cooperate with other hg's.
Somewhere between 20K yrs. ago and 12K, things started going wrong and by 4K BC...the Fallen Angles did their mischief and that culminated about 1.6K years later with Noah's Deluge.

It's been 30+ year since I studied these things, I doubt if my recollection of something so vague is even close anymore but all this has always fascinated me.

I've had good Christian friends get real concerned over my interest in all this, I tell them it doesn't change what I believe about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit one little bit. I'd just like to know.

[farmbif]

:popcorn:

[Winger Ed.]

Thanks for heads up, will look up Bright Insights.


Another interesting thing--
The guy that wrote 'Con-Tiki' back in the late 50s I think wrote another book about another of his adventures
with primitive boats and the travels of ancient people.

He pretty well proved that ancient people, more than 20,000 years ago had trade route and settlements all over the world-- in both oceans.
The reason pyramid and giant stone block buildings look so similar all over the world is because of this interaction.
Whatever happened that far back shut down those civilizations and building construction all over the world at the same time.

The Egyptians came along later, after the really grand pyramids were built.
In all their hierogylphs-- there's no mention of building them or moving the giant blocks.

He figured the reason why people in the Pacific Islands, Mexico, America, and South America were so receptive to Europeans
(at least at first) and were not surprised at seeing them.
They had an oral history of people that looked like them coming from the sea, and were waiting for them to come back.

If our civilization suffered the same fate, our collective knowledge would be lost too.
The only people to survive would be hunter gatherer types.
All the white collar workers and 'city people' be the least likely to survive..

[Good Cheer]

Somewhere I have it in my mind that back 20K years prior to the Flood the Watchers were good angels, like pre-fallen (?) and God assigned them here, like their duty station with recovering humanity. In places like Gobleki Tepe and many other locations around the world, these were training centers...teaching farming, civics, etc and such, Like they were re-establishing the Earth again from some catastrophic event even farther back in time. Like gathering roaming tribes, hunter gatherers and teaching them to work the soil and learn to live together & cooperate with other hg's.
Somewhere between 20K yrs. ago and 12K, things started going wrong and by 4K BC...the Fallen Angles did their mischief and that culminated about 1.6K years later with Noah's Deluge.

It's been 30+ year since I studied these things, I doubt if my recollection of something so vague is even close anymore but all this has always fascinated me.

I've had good Christian friends get real concerned over my interest in all this, I tell them it doesn't change what I believe about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit one little bit. I'd just like to know.

There are a few people still digging into it these days. And, they have new technologies to work with![smilie=w:

[Scrounge]

I'm no "scientist" but I'm not scientifically ignorant either. I can see that our hyperbolic Algore and cute little girl Thune idiots are wrong. Trust me fellows, Miami and Manhattan are safe from flooding, there is need for anyone to run to the mountains to avoid being drowned in massive rising seas.

To the Chicken Littles who do fear that global seas will rise and drown us all I ask, "Are you not puzzled by the fact that scary hot seas are said to be rising on some islands but ... not on others? "Follow that by, "What do you not know about the science of plate tectonics?"

My scientific point being that we're told earth's surface is a layer of thick, massive continental plates that float on a liquid magma core. The plates are said to slowly shift against each other. And they're obviously great heat sinks. It makes sense that such huge plates will continue to float while slowly rising and falling independent of any tiny (silly fractions of a single degree actually) surface air temperature variation.

If all that is so, and I do believe it is, huge chunks of continental land have always been sliding along while rising or falling a few inches over each other for centuries with no foolish connection to polar ice supposedly melting because of our smelly belches, foul gas powered cars and stinking cow pharts!

Nothing will change the minds of group-think loonies but I've not yet had any knowledgeable global warming believer challenge any part of that argument.

In closing Mr. Gebirgsiogeri (Post #4), anyone who tells you scientists can precisely measure the height of any point on earth at 4.474 feet above sea level (within +/- .001 feet?) will probably lie to you about other things too! :)

I know that plate tectonics was a very disputed thing when I was in high school. My Geology teacher, Mr. Eklund, thought it was a stupid idea. He also denied the existence of bird-hipped dinosaurs. Even though there were pictures of them in our textbook. He was, himself, an old fossil, about like I am now... ;)

[OS OK]

There are a few people still digging into it these days. And, they have new technologies to work with![smilie=w:

I think that's great. But...main stream archeology has a hard line on how they see history, they have a narrative and they won't budge off of it an inch. Any archeologist trying to present new historical data they've pieced together are blackballed, can't even write their white papers for peer review, they won't have any part of it.
The one book that really got my curiosity up was about 'Out of Place Artifacts' - 'OOPARTS', can't for the life of me remember the author (Graham Hancock or maybe Michael Cremo), it's about things found buried in Coal seams and solid rock, things like gold necklaces and electrical looking artifacts. Etc.
Someday it'll all be revealed, I guess when the ruling elite blueblood families have all lost control of earth? I hope that is very soon.

[Winger Ed.]

He also denied the existence of bird-hipped dinosaurs.

There was a dinosaur chaser several years ago that had a few documentaries.
When he challenged the idea that dinosaurs weren't all stupid lumbering creatures that lived in swamps---
He was almost burned at the stake for being a heretic by his peers.

20 years or so later, he is being proven to be right.

I think a lot of human history will follow the same path.
A lot of ancient civilization is easy to see and prove out their accomplishments,,,,,, the timeline of them, not so much.
It's one thing to estimate the age of a rock. When it was shaped or carved on is not.

Incompetent teachers abound.
A buddy talked of doing a science paper on the idea that the poles shift and swap every so often.
The learned teacher failed his report and about laughed him out of the class.
I wonder where that clown is now.