9mm and OCD

[Willie T]

After working up a nice 9mm load with bullets I cast with a Lee 125 round nose mold for a new pistol, my OCD kicked in. I was not satisfied and wanted to make some quality ammunition for the nine. I ordered a .358 124 NOE TC gas check mold. (These will eventually also be cast for a .357 carbine and pushed hard). Alloying a combination of clip on wheel weight, soft stick on wheel weights, and pewter for the 9, my goal was to tweak the load for optimum accuracy, expansion, and reliable function without leading. First choice powder was silhouette. It has almost no muzzle flash and upper end loads burn clean. I melted and fluxed 10 pounds of COWW ingots, 4 pounds of stick on ingots, and two 4 ounce pewter coins. I preheated the mold till what was in the pot did not stick and with the Alloy at 715, I started casting. On the third pour the mold started dropping nice boolits. I was able to keep the alloy between 715 and 730 in the 20 pound Lee bottom pour. I cast about 10 pounds of boolits. When I finished I went through them all. I cull pretty hard and probably had 25-30 rejects I threw back in the pot before I turned it off. What was left weighed between 123.6 and 124.2. Diameters were between .359 and .3595. I sized, checked and lubed the bullets in a RCBS LAM with a .356 die.
309919
They came out of the die at .3565 and look pretty close to perfect.
309920
Case mouths were expanded just enough to allow the gas check in the case and bullets were seated. After seating the case mouths measured .382. I set a Hornady taper crimp die to just remove the bell to .380 which is SAAMI. These plunked with no slop and no further taper crimp. After load work up I settled on 1.050 OAL. That is short but is what worked best and 4.8 grains of silhouette. Shooting five from a rest at 25 yards for confirmation, the load holds up and point of impact is spot on.
309921
Spent cases are clean as a whistle and almost look like they have been tumbled.
309922
Using some home made ballistic gel made with Knox jello in bread pans covered in denim I did a redneck expansion test. The gas check is still in place with a nice mushroom.
309923
Expansion was a little over 1.5x at .560
309925
Weight retention is quite impressive.
309926
I have since ran 200 through the pistol with 100% function and no leading.
This is a nice load that checks all the boxes and I am satisfied. Clean. Almost no muzzle flash. Accurate. Good expansion. Excellent weight retention. Reliable function. No leading.
Willie

[Kosh75287]

That's some very fine work, Sir. Do you have an estimate of muzzle velocity?
I looked up 4.8/Silhouette/124-125 gr. at the Hodgdon site, and it looks like you might be just a few f/s either side of 1000 f/s.
Ordinarily, I would be hard-pressed to sacrifice such fine accuracy for a handful of more f/s. If this load is to be used in applications other than trips to the range, however, bumping the charge weight by 0.1 - 0.2 gr. might be to your advantage.
Please understand, I like the accuracy, expansion and especially the NO LEADING that you obtained with your first load! For all we know, however, these items MIGHT improve, with some extra velocity.

[Willie T]

The data I was working off was in the Hodgdon on line data. It shows 4.5 as a starting load at 1,020 and 5.0 as max at 1,096 at 1.050 OAL in a 4” barrel. I shot 4.5-5.0 in 0.1 grain increments though a 4.25” barrel. 4.8 was the standout. The chronograph I have is optical. It was overcast with a light drizzle while shooting and I did not bother getting the chronograph out because I don’t trust it in those conditions. Extrapolation of velocity from advertised data is speculation. A guess would be 1,060 fps but only a guess.
Willie

[dverna]

Well done!!!

[Kosh75287]

Okay, I NOW see the basis for your 4.8/Silhouette/124 gr. load, and can see why you didn't go higher.
Extrapolation from published data IS speculation, but it's not useless. If your estimate, which seems reasonable, is within 40 f/s either way, at worst it beats the minimum for "minor" in competition. At best, a 124 gr. FP at 1100 f/s that expands is more than enough to ruin a creep's day (or all of his future ones).
Until control issues arise, it's ALWAYS nice to gain velocity, if it does not alter accuracy, reliability, leading, and the whole host of other things one must ponder for a defensive pistol. When the quest for faster bullets worsens any of the other considerations, it is a fool's bargain.

[Willie T]

Got a break in the rain and set up the chronograph today and shot 5 over it. My guess was close and avg velocity from 12’ was 1076. Barrel is actually 4.7”. ES was 19 fps. All around a pretty nice load.
Willie
309947

[justindad]

That’s about the same powder charge I used with that boolit. My OACL was between 1.050 and 1.100. If I recall correctly, 5.5 grains would start to compress the powder, and I’ve never seen Silhouette compressed so I didn’t go there. I did get the action to cycle with 4.7 grains, but I wasn’t confident lower charges would perform very well (I see 4.5 worked for you).

[Willie T]

That’s about the same powder charge I used with that boolit. My OACL was between 1.050 and 1.100. If I recall correctly, 5.5 grains would start to compress the powder, and I’ve never seen Silhouette compressed so I didn’t go there. I did get the action to cycle with 4.7 grains, but I wasn’t confident lower charges would perform very well (I see 4.5 worked for you).

Charge weight/pressure is depth sensitive loading silhouette in the 9. With OAL at 1.050, 5.0 is a max charge. While with a longer seating depth(OAL) 5.0 is advertised as a starting load. I am really liking the way silhouette acts with a 124 in 9mm.
Willie

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Nice work. I am a bit surprised at how well that alloy expanded at that velocity.

[Willie T]

Nice work. I am a bit surprised at how well that alloy expanded at that velocity.
Yes I was pleased. Right or wrong, I credit the malleability of tin with that. Basically what I did is use pewter to match the antimony in the clip on wheel weights with tin and make 10 pounds of Lyman No2, which will expand and hold together on bone at velocity as low as 1,000fps. Then softened it up some with 4 pounds of soft lead.(half a pound of soft for every ounce of tin I added)

Edited to add:
Maybe one of the forum members with more technical knowledge than me will chime in. I have always just shot and adjusted alloy till I get the results I’m looking for and kept good notes so I can repeat what I like.

[Kosh75287]

A 19 f/s spread for 1076 f/s is tough to obtain and all but impossible to beat! Nex time some "lug-nut" like ME suggests that you bump up the charge weight, just give us a good "ignoring"!!!

[Willie T]

Only five shots were fired over the chronograph…. ES would assuredly open up with a larger sample.

[jdgabbard]

Very nice work. I have been very interested in Silhouette and True Blue for a little while now, and plan on playing with some as soon as I can work my way through this 8lb jug of Unique I have sitting next to the bench. I find it most interesting due to it's reports of being a very clean burner with fantastic metering, unlike what I have experience with Unique and Red Dot which cannot throw the same charge twice. Although I do like the both of them, and they make good ammo. Either way, your work is impressive!

[Willie T]

Very nice work. I have been very interested in Silhouette and True Blue for a little while now, and plan on playing with some as soon as I can work my way through this 8lb jug of Unique I have sitting next to the bench. I find it most interesting due to it's reports of being a very clean burner with fantastic metering, unlike what I have experience with Unique and Red Dot which cannot throw the same charge twice. Although I do like the both of them, and they make good ammo. Either way, your work is impressive!
The silhouette burn appears to clean up as powder charges approach upper mid level and yes it meters very well. If you are wanting a clean burn at starting level target loads, you might be disappointed. Using a Hornady powder measure with the pistol rotor installed, (which has around a 20 grain capacity), powder throws were dead nuts time after time on my beam scale.
Willie

[justindad]

True Blue and Silhouette both need to be loaded at the upper end for clean burning… perhaps I should only speak about True Blue. But they both meter like water, and True Blue can be used in very many cartridges.

[Kosh75287]

Man! If I had 8 lbs of Unique (OR HERCO), I'D prolly never buy another pistol propellant again... :-(

[jdgabbard]

The silhouette burn appears to clean up as powder charges approach upper mid level and yes it meters very well. If you are wanting a clean burn at starting level target loads, you might be disappointed. Using a Hornady powder measure with the pistol rotor installed, (which has around a 20 grain capacity), powder throws were dead nuts time after time on my beam scale.
Willie

That's what I hear. And about where I would expect to load it. Current load for J-Words at 115gr is 4.3gr of Unique, which is just 0.2gr shy of max for the data I have. I don't have a Chrony, so I have no idea how fast they're shooting. But it is easy to keep all hits in a palm sized circle unsupported at 25yds with Irons in my 8" AR9 SBR. They are very flat shooting, and I would expect to load up anything else very similar. I'll have to give it a try when I order my next jug of pistol powder. Thanks for the encouragement!

EDIT: THE LOAD MENTIONED HERE IS INCORRECT. THE CHARGE IS THE SAME 4.3gr, BUT THE POWDER IS RED DOT. MAX DATA I HAVE IS 4.5gr OF RED DOT.


Man! If I had 8 lbs of Unique (OR HERCO), I'D prolly never buy another pistol propellant again... :-(

You say that, but it goes a lot quicker than you think. I just burned through a little over a pound the other day loading up 1500 38spl with Lee 158gr TL over 4.2gr of Unique. Loaded 3k of 9mm last month with 4.3gr of Red Dot, thats almost 2lbs. I'm getting ready to load up about 1k of 380 with 3.4gr of Unique once I verify the load at the range, not much, but still 3.4gr of Unique times 1k...so a half pound or so... There are only 7000gr in a pound of powder, so it doesn't last forever.

I shoot every weekend, and generally shoot about +/-300 rounds every time in one caliber or another. So it doesn't last nearly as long as what you would think it would.... But it keeps me busy in the evenings. I do something reloading related just about every night for usually an hour or two at a time. Tonight it's probably going to be depriming 2k worth of 9mm brass, and getting it ready to tumble... I also need to start looking at my .45acp supply pretty soon, so I'll probably use up a good chunk of that Unique there as well.

[gwpercle]

ATTABOY Willie ... You Done Good !!!

That NOE gas checked bullet has become one of my favorites ... hands down favorite in 9mm Luger and 38 Super but also a favorite in 38 special , 38 special +P and 357 Magnum .
Cast softish (8.5 - 9 bhn) they mushroom nicely .
I size my 9mm boolits .357" and the 38 / 357 boolits .357" or .358"...
I'm glad I got it in 4 cavity !
I will have to keep an eye out for that Silhouette powder ... I have never tried it but your results are outstanding ...
I need to try some .
Thanks for posting such a great range report ... well done !
Gary

[Willie T]

ATTABOY Willie ... You Done Good !!!

That NOE gas checked bullet has become one of my favorites ... hands down favorite in 9mm Luger and 38 Super but also a favorite in 38 special , 38 special +P and 357 Magnum .
Cast softish (8.5 - 9 bhn) they mushroom nicely .
I size my 9mm boolits .357" and the 38 / 357 boolits .357" or .358"...
I'm glad I got it in 4 cavity !
I will have to keep an eye out for that Silhouette powder ... I have never tried it but your results are outstanding ...
I need to try some .
Thanks for posting such a great range report ... well done !
Gary

Thank you sir. It was your mention of that particular mold in another thread that initially prompted me to take a look at it. Not to be a one upper but I got the 5 cavity!
Willie

[fredj338]

That's what I hear. And about where I would expect to load it. Current load for J-Words at 115gr is 4.3gr of Unique, which is just 0.2gr shy of max for the data I have. I don't have a Chrony, so I have no idea how fast they're shooting. But it is easy to keep all hits in a palm sized circle unsupported at 25yds with Irons in my 8" AR9 SBR. They are very flat shooting, and I would expect to load up anything else very similar. I'll have to give it a try when I order my next jug of pistol powder. Thanks for the encouragement!



You say that, but it goes a lot quicker than you think. I just burned through a little over a pound the other day loading up 1500 38spl with Lee 158gr TL over 4.2gr of Unique. Loaded 3k of 9mm last month with 4.3gr of Red Dot, thats almost 2lbs. I'm getting ready to load up about 1k of 380 with 3.4gr of Unique once I verify the load at the range, not much, but still 3.4gr of Unique times 1k...so a half pound or so... There are only 7000gr in a pound of powder, so it doesn't last forever.

I shoot every weekend, and generally shoot about +/-300 rounds every time in one caliber or another. So it doesn't last nearly as long as what you would think it would.... But it keeps me busy in the evenings. I do something reloading related just about every night for usually an hour or two at a time. Tonight it's probably going to be depriming 2k worth of 9mm brass, and getting it ready to tumble... I also need to start looking at my .45acp supply pretty soon, so I'll probably use up a good chunk of that Unique there as well.

Where did you get your data? 4.3gr of Unique is pretty light load for 115gr bullets. Speer manual is quite a bit higher. I typically run 5gr under 124gr. Yes you need a chrono.
https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/9mm_Luger__115_rev1.pdf

[jdgabbard]

Where did you get your data? 4.3gr of Unique is pretty light load for 115gr bullets. Speer manual is quite a bit higher. I typically run 5gr under 124gr. Yes you need a chrono.
https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/9mm_Luger__115_rev1.pdf

Correction, Fred. I got ahead of myself and misspoke(typed). It's 4.3gr of Red Dot under the 115gr FMJ. I think the max load data I have is 4.5gr of Red Dot going off of memory. It fills the case quite nicely, with the base of the bullet "tamping down" the powder just a bit. Red Dot is quite a fluffy powder... However, I have found OAL to be quite picky with this load. I get better accuracy in pistols if I seat out to 1.140-1.145, but this is simply too long for my AR9 and several of my pistols - hitting the rifling when chambered. An OAL of 1.100 fits in everything, but is noticeably a more stout load. And is as high as I want to push the threshold with Red Dot.