Perfect boolit?

[nueces5]

hi everyone im about to start casting my lead to start casting boolits and shooting this year.
Last year doing long range with my 308 and the 311466 I had good results up to 600 meters, from then on the shots were not predictable on target
So last year in another post, they recommended me to try with some heavier boolits, I have a mold for my mauser a little "fatter" the lyman 314299, I was thinking of sizing it to 309 and then try those 190 grains.
Larry also recommended me to pay special attention that the boolits come out perfect, and here comes the question:
What do you consider a perfect boolit?

[Winger Ed.]

Good fill out, consistent weight, smooth/clean cut on the sprue, and just a little hint of frosting (optionable).

[Shopdog]

Good fill out, consistent weight, smooth/clean cut on the sprue, and just a little hint of frosting (optionable).

Plus one on winger's post. When all is right with my casting.... the weight consistency is uncanny close. Sayin,weigh 10 and 8 will be spot on,the other 2,within a .1 grain or so.

Just an opinion but,working on those items listed in above post comes before chasing just about anything else. Good luck with your project.

[charlie b]

Mostly it is with fewer voids. No, you can't see them, but, sometimes there will be a weight difference.

Weight sort your bullets in 0.1gn batches. The top 4 or 5 batches will be your best shooters.

Cosmetic is the next sort. For 'perfection' toss anything that has a flaw.

For my casting skill the result is about 20% of the bullets I cast. The rest are still fired, just at shorter ranges.

Some folks have claimed to cast bullets that all weigh within 0.1gn. If you can do that, then I would say you are doing a perfect job. I can't. Mine are usually all within a 1.0gn range (except when I 'flub' a cast).

[nueces5]

Thanks for the answers
Sprue plates never cut perfect so I'm going to sit at the scale and batch
then I'll do as you tell me and any cosmetic blemishes, and go back to the pot
then he will go to the sizing die and put gascheck on it and the pc

[Winger Ed.]

Just a guess--- but you might be cutting your sprues after they cool a bit too long.

I run my pot a little on the hot side, after a pour,, I leave a rather large sprue puddle,
the make the cut as soon as the color changes on top of the puddle from shiny to dull.

The melt is still pretty hot, and I don't bang on the sprue plate.
Wearing a welding glove, I turn the plate by hand,
firmly-- but not hard bearing downward on it. At that point-- It's not very hard to turn either.

[Bigslug]

There is a trick to a good sprue cut, though I'm not 100% sure my kung fu is perfected. Timing the cut to the color of the hardening sprue seems to be part of it, but I also pinch the sprue plate against the blocks with a gloved hand while I'm tapping the sprue plate at 90 degrees with my NOE mold mallet. Seems to help keep the sprue plate from climbing away from the blocks.

[Winger Ed.]

There is a trick to a good sprue cut, though .

Thanks for that.. Now I feel vindicated!

[high standard 40]

There is a trick to a good sprue cut, though I'm not 100% sure my kung fu is perfected. Timing the cut to the color of the hardening sprue seems to be part of it, but I also pinch the sprue plate against the blocks with a gloved hand while I'm tapping the sprue plate at 90 degrees with my NOE mold mallet. Seems to help keep the sprue plate from climbing away from the blocks.

This is almost exactly the way I do it, only I do as Ed does and use heavy gloves. I never use a mallet.

[Larry Gibson]

Ten years ago, I thought I was casting pretty good bullets, excellent in fact. However. the more I got into shooting cast bullets at HV I found while I was casting good, excellent bullets I too hit the accuracy wall that is alluded to. I also found that when those cast bullets were pushed to really HV (2500 - 3000+ fps) they did not do as well as expected. Back then I was weight sorting as we've all been told to. If you line them out by weight you get the so called "bell curve". In proving insanity, I, like you and everyone else, then did the same testing of each .1 gr testing over and over again expecting different results.....however we all got the same results; accuracy was not really improved via that method no matter how many times we weight sorted with that method.

Let's assume we have a mould that will cast perfectly even bullets in all dimensions. Not an assumption but the fact is every mould cavity has a finite capacity for any alloy. Thus, if we cast with an excellent giving the best fillout with minimal shrinkage then we much understan only those bullets that weigh the heaviest will have filled the mould out completely with minimal shrinkage. An excellent alloy is necessary because we cannot control where on the bullet the shrinkage may occur and if the shrinkage will be consistent. Any bullets with less weight are then not dimensionally the same as they either didn't fill completely fill out or the alloy did not shrink consistently. We may not be able to measure other than weighing that difference, but the difference is there in lighter weight lighter weight bullets none the less. Now, knowing that difference in weight (mass) is there but it is not predictable where.....we don't know where in or on the bullet that difference in weight is missing from. The missing weight is what creates the imbalance. I suspect voids in the alloy are not the problem as has been suggested by many "experts" over so many years, but rather other aspects of incomplete fillout and shrinkage are the cause which I have previously discussed.

I recently cast 542 NOE 30 XCB bullets of #2 alloy. I have just completed weight sorting them. In the next post I will show the graphed results of the weight sort which should aptly demonstrate what I'm saying. Have to copy, download, etc. so it will be an hour or so.

Here is I weight sort. Using my NOE 310-165-FN mould 542 bullets were cast of Lyman #2 alloy and WQ'd. They were then aged about 12 days before I got around to weight sorting. Here is my set up for weight sorting and how I accomplish the task. I visually inspect each bullet under a magnifying glass for any defect. If any is found that bullet is rejected to be melted and recast at a later casting session. Those bullets which pass my anal visual inspection then have any remnant of the sprue cut off. That is done on the lead block with a sharp blade on the pocketknife. The bullet is then weighed on the Redding balance beam scale. While waiting for the beam to settle I then visually examine, and sprue cut another bullet. With the magnifier in front of the scale I can readily and accurately see what the weighed bullets exact weight is. The bullet is then placed in a bin for that weight.

Of the 542 bullets weighed 22 were rejected for a visual defect or because they weighed less than 156.9 gr which means the weighed ones had passed the visual inspection but still weighed way lite. The remaining 520 XCBs were weight sorted into separate bins of .1 gr increment from 156.9 gr to 158.0 gr......a 1.1 gr spread. The majority were in the heavy end at 157.8, 157.7 and 158.0. Those were selected for "match" level grade cast bullets. The 156.9 gr to 157.7 gr were used for practice, foulers and sighters.

This is what excellent "as cast" bullets should look like.

309876

If your bullets have any frosting, are out of round or have little davits (as in the circled area on these 3 bullets) then they are not as "perfect" as can be cast and should be rejected or relegated to "casual shooting".

309877

[BLAHUT]

I batch weigh all my cast bullets by .01 gr, every cartridge in the 50 round box weights the same, all same weight boxes are taken for matches, all the od weights are used for practice or back in the pot. I batch weigh all my jacked bullets for matches and sort the same way.

[nueces5]

Thanks for the answers, I see that I have a lot of work ahead of me.
I really don't understand why the boolits have to have that bright color, no frostys, does anyone know?
Larry, what temperature do you set your oven to?
Right now I have painted my reload and cast room, but as soon as I connect everything in the new place I will make a good batch and I will post the photos for you to see and tell me what you think

[Larry Gibson]

Except for bullets of 300+ gr weight I cast with a bottom pour Lyman Mag20. I keep the alloy at 710 - 725 degrees when casting. I use two thermometers, one measures the bottom half and the other the top half. I adjust the casting tempo to not overheat the mould.

If the bullets are frosty it means basically one or both of two things. The alloy and/or mould are too hot. In either or both cases the alloy in the cavity will shrink more. In many cases, especially where there are frosty places on the bullet. We can not control the shrinkage and with such the shrinkage will probably not be equal on the bullet. Thus, we get out of round bullets, small divits in the bullet, and spots on the bullet that are dished in slightly. All that leads to unbalanced bullets. Also too high a content of antimony vs tin in the alloy when cast with a hotter alloy or too hot a mould causes antimony spots (they look like frost, on the bullet because the excess antimony not in solution with the lead will solidify first before the lead. Antimony also has a much higher shrinkage rate than lead or a ternary alloy. That induces imbalances in the bullets.

Remember it it those imbalances in bullets, jacketed or cast, that are acted upon by the centrifugal force of the RPM rate. It is the reason we shoot "groups" instead of every bullet going through the same hole in the target. The longer the range, the higher the RPM, the greater the dispersion of the bullets on target. I.e. the larger the group.

If getting the best possible accuracy out of your rifles and cast bullets is the name of the game, then you must learn to cast as close to a perfectly balanced bullet as you can. I've found when casting bullets the difference in casting a good bullet vs an excellent bullet really isn't much different.

[nueces5]

Except for bullets of 300+ gr weight I cast with a bottom pour Lyman Mag20. I keep the alloy at 710 - 725 degrees when casting. I use two thermometers, one measures the bottom half and the other the top half. I adjust the casting tempo to not overheat the mould.

If the bullets are frosty it means basically one or both of two things. The alloy and/or mould are too hot. In either or both cases the alloy in the cavity will shrink more. In many cases, especially where there are frosty places on the bullet. We can not control the shrinkage and with such the shrinkage will probably not be equal on the bullet. Thus, we get out of round bullets, small divits in the bullet, and spots on the bullet that are dished in slightly. All that leads to unbalanced bullets. Also too high a content of antimony vs tin in the alloy when cast with a hotter alloy or too hot a mould causes antimony spots (they look like frost, on the bullet because the excess antimony not in solution with the lead will solidify first before the lead. Antimony also has a much higher shrinkage rate than lead or a ternary alloy. That induces imbalances in the bullets.

Remember it it those imbalances in bullets, jacketed or cast, that are acted upon by the centrifugal force of the RPM rate. It is the reason we shoot "groups" instead of every bullet going through the same hole in the target. The longer the range, the higher the RPM, the greater the dispersion of the bullets on target. I.e. the larger the group.

If getting the best possible accuracy out of your rifles and cast bullets is the name of the game, then you must learn to cast as close to a perfectly balanced bullet as you can. I've found when casting bullets the difference in casting a good bullet vs an excellent bullet really isn't much different.

great answer larry, I already have two or three things to lean on to start looking for quality in my boolits.
Thank you very much for answering

[Bigslug]

This is almost exactly the way I do it, only I do as Ed does and use heavy gloves. I never use a mallet.

That's a part of the kung fu mystery. I've had a number of sessions where hand pressure alone is sufficient to cut the sprue, but others where by the time I'm confident the fill has solidified, it needs a tap to make the cut. My guess is that it's alloy-based, and that these tougher alloys used for higher speeds put up too much resistance.

Gear tip: If you haven't discovered the Ove Glove, I consider it a NEED. While welding gloves protect against short contacts with hot things, the Ove Glove gives enough insulation to allow considerably more contact time with mold blocks and sprue plates.

[high standard 40]

That's a part of the kung fu mystery. I've had a number of sessions where hand pressure alone is sufficient to cut the sprue, but others where by the time I'm confident the fill has solidified, it needs a tap to make the cut. My guess is that it's alloy-based, and that these tougher alloys used for higher speeds put up too much resistance.

Gear tip: If you haven't discovered the Ove Glove, I consider it a NEED. While welding gloves protect against short contacts with hot things, the Ove Glove gives enough insulation to allow considerably more contact time with mold blocks and sprue plates.

I'm sure the type of alloy used has some influence on the ease or difficulty in cutting the sprue. The vast majority of the bullets I cast are from an RCBS 7mm 145 Sil mold. No doubt a larger heavier bullet may require a longer wait before attempting to cut the sprue. For the mold I mentioned a gloved hand makes a clean cut and the mallet is not needed.
Also I agree with Larry concerning frosty areas on an otherwise shiney bullet. In my experience that frosty spot indicated a shrinkage and thus an unbalanced projectile.

[waksupi]

A heavy for caliber Loverin is pretty tough to beat in pretty much any bore size.

[slim1836]

Larry,

Do you repeat the process of weight sorting after lubing/powder coating, and gas check installation prior to loading? Just curious in my strive to continue learning.

Slim

[Willie T]

Except for bullets of 300+ gr weight I cast with a bottom pour Lyman Mag20. I keep the alloy at 710 - 725 degrees when casting. I use two thermometers, one measures the bottom half and the other the top half. I adjust the casting tempo to not overheat the mould.

If the bullets are frosty it means basically one or both of two things. The alloy and/or mould are too hot. In either or both cases the alloy in the cavity will shrink more. In many cases, especially where there are frosty places on the bullet. We can not control the shrinkage and with such the shrinkage will probably not be equal on the bullet. Thus, we get out of round bullets, small divits in the bullet, and spots on the bullet that are dished in slightly. All that leads to unbalanced bullets. Also too high a content of antimony vs tin in the alloy when cast with a hotter alloy or too hot a mould causes antimony spots (they look like frost, on the bullet because the excess antimony not in solution with the lead will solidify first before the lead. Antimony also has a much higher shrinkage rate than lead or a ternary alloy. That induces imbalances in the bullets.

Remember it it those imbalances in bullets, jacketed or cast, that are acted upon by the centrifugal force of the RPM rate. It is the reason we shoot "groups" instead of every bullet going through the same hole in the target. The longer the range, the higher the RPM, the greater the dispersion of the bullets on target. I.e. the larger the group.

If getting the best possible accuracy out of your rifles and cast bullets is the name of the game, then you must learn to cast as close to a perfectly balanced bullet as you can. I've found when casting bullets the difference in casting a good bullet vs an excellent bullet really isn't much different.

^^^^ Good post. Consistent mold temperature is the most difficult casting variable to minimize.

[justindad]

Does anybody measure the temperature of the mold while casting?
*
Can water dropping cause deformation or imbalance? I imagine the area that hits the water first might contract.

[charlie b]

Some people do. I don't since the bullet condition is easy to see as I am casting and I can adjust tempo to adjust as I go.

Why water drop? I just use an alloy that is the hardness I want. Rifles are Lyman #2. Back when I cast a lot of pistol bullets I used straight COWW.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

Do you repeat the process of weight sorting after lubing/powder coating, and gas check installation prior to loading? Just curious in my strive to continue learning.

Slim

No.

With my match bullets I seat the GCs separately using the Lyman tool on the 450. Then I only lube the bullets in an H&I die of the same diameter as the as cast diameter. With my 30 XCBs which drop at .3105 for example, I lbne them in a .312 H&I die [ H&I dies most often ar .0015 t0 .002 under the specified size to account for alloy spring back] which also crimps the Hornady GC on the shank. Those bullets are then good to go in my Match 308W. If used in the 30x60 XCB rifle, I will push through size [honed out Lee sizer] to .310.

[Larry Gibson]

Does anybody measure the temperature of the mold while casting?
*
Can water dropping cause deformation or imbalance? I imagine the area that hits the water first might contract.

I use a large older galvanized mop bucket filled about 2/3 with tap water. I have not found any deformation from Water Quenching.

When casting my match level bullet, 30 XCB, 311466 and 314299, I just use the one mould (all are 4 cavity moulds). Thus, I maintain an even alloy temp and adjust my casting tempo (cadence if you will). I've not bothered with mould temp or using a hot plate for many years as I found having something else to pay attention to other than casting was distracting, and consistency suffered. When I cast such bullets I just cast bullets and do not sort or get distracted otherwise. I most often cast 550 - 700 at one session.

[Larry Gibson]

Some people do. I don't since the bullet condition is easy to see as I am casting and I can adjust tempo to adjust as I go.

Why water drop? I just use an alloy that is the hardness I want. Rifles are Lyman #2. Back when I cast a lot of pistol bullets I used straight COWW.

Because I push my 30 XCBs pretty hard at 50,000 +/- psi the extra hardness is proven to help them withstand that level of acceleration. With my match 30 XCBs, 311466s and 314299s WQing will bring the #2 alloy up to linotypes BHN without the attendant excess antimony and brittleness of linotype. The harder WQ'd bullets have proven to give better accuracy.

Having one BHN of a particular bullet for all my applications is a lot easier than having several different "lots" of different BHNs.

[Winger Ed.]

Can water dropping cause deformation or imbalance? I imagine the area that hits the water first might contract.

Over the years, there has been several fads come and go.
In years past-- there was a dry spell where the latest and greatest magnum hadn't come out,
so in the mean time, everybody went all ga-ga over cryogenically treating their barrels.

Then after that passed, you had to molly coat everything.
Cast, jacketed, it didn't matter, they all had to be molly coated.
In your spare time, you also could stress out over the 'damage' shooting uncoated bullets did to the bore.

A while later,,,,, you had to temper or case harden your boolits.
For that, you'd take all the boolits you'd cast, put one in a oven, raise the temp. slowly until it 'slumped'.
Then lower the temp about 50-60 degrees, put them in the oven and cook 'em.
After the magic amount of time, you dumped them all into a bucket of cold water.

Somebody figured out, you could get to the same place by dropping them straight out of your mold into a bucket of cold water.
I do it that way and have a towel on the bottom. After it gets covered, I pull it up and lay it back down over whatever is in there.
I'm not too worried and split hairs over how hard they are, it's just easy and handy for me to do it that way.
If I'd had any deform when they hit--- I can't see good enough to tell.
If any got out of round- I figure the sizing die can fix that.

Now days, while we're waiting for the newest-- latest and greatest magnum--
we have to be content with the current fad of powder coating.:bigsmyl2:

[M-Tecs]

When casting my match level bullet, 30 XCB, 311466 and 314299, I just use the one mould (all are 4 cavity moulds). Thus, I maintain an even alloy temp and adjust my casting tempo (cadence if you will). .

Just asking for clarification. You are only using one 4 cavity mold to control cadence but you are filling all 4 cavities?

[GregLaROCHE]

Why are you sizing to 309? Have you slugged the bore? I would think that an old Mauser might like a boolit a little fatter.

[Larry Gibson]

Just asking for clarification. You are only using one 4 cavity mold to control cadence but you are filling all 4 cavities?

Yes, just one mould and filling all 4 cavities. I let the alloy roil back up out of each cavity before moving to the next and I leave a very generous sprue. The mould is then set on an old M60 barrel changing glove where i watch the sprue harden. When it just turns that dull look it is just right to cut the sprue off. The bucket of water is low to my left and I then tap the handle nut to open the blocks probably 1 - 1/2' over the water. The blocks are closed, the sprue plate closed, the sprue put back into the Mag20 and the mould is filled again.

BTW; the Mag20 mould guide is adjusted so the spout is about 1/2" above the sprue plate. The alloy flow is adjusted through the pot full of alloy [lows less as the pot empties due to less pressure]. I open the stop to increase flow as the pot empties maintaining an even floe throughout the session.

[Larry Gibson]

Ed

I knew about WQing back in the '60s or early '70s from an article in a magazine about a fellow who demonstrated MGs for sale. He was using cast bullet loads for such casting them of WWs. Was a simple way of heat treating them.

I doubt heat treating cast bullets by WQ or an oven is any more of a fad than is smokeless powder to a BP aficionado....:drinks:

[OS OK]

...Now days, while we're waiting for the newest-- latest and greatest magnum--
we have to be content with the current fad of powder coating.:bigsmyl2:

Could 'trend' be a better word in your comment about 'the current fad'?

I think PC'ing our casts has been pretty much established now as a fine jacket for the cast round...I think it's here to stay.

[charlie b]

Most of what we do now we tried back 50 years ago. Even things similar to powder coating. Back then we tried molly coating, electroplating, baked epoxy coating, teflon, etc. etc. I wish there had been powder coat paints in the mainstream back then. It just turns out to have the perfect cure temp for lead alloys.

[405grain]

There's another factor that hasn't been discussed. Nueces5 didn't say what velocity he was shooting his loads at. The #311466 has a blunter nose than the #314299, with a correspondingly lower ballistic coefficient. He says that he's getting good accuracy out to 600 yards, but after that the accuracy falls off. This could be that his bullets are going through the transonic zone at this range. When a bullet is traveling at supersonic speeds it's pushing the air ahead of it in a compressed shockwave. In this situation the bullet is basically traveling in a near vacuum. As the velocity of the bullet slows to below the speed of sound this shockwave collapses on the bullet, which can cause buffeting and instability. Further, while supersonic the bullet was not only traveling down range in a pocket of near vacuum, but it was also spinning like a top with almost no resistance. As soon as the shockwave collapses on the bullet the drag from the air will impact on the bullets rotation.

What this means is that if a bullet is traveling at supersonic speeds during it's whole flight it can remain stable. If a bullet is traveling below the speed of sound during it's whole flight it will also remain stable. However, if a bullet transitions from supersonic to subsonic during it's flight its stability might get compromised. Check the ballistic coefficient of your bullet, and the velocity that you're shooting it at, against a ballistics table and see where it's dropping below the speed of sound. If that's at around 600 yards it might indicate what's going on. If this is the case, either try increasing the velocity (which might introduce a whole other set of problems), or try shooting a bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient.

All this aside, for best accuracy you want to make the best quality bullets that you can cast.

[nueces5]

There's another factor that hasn't been discussed. Nueces5 didn't say what velocity he was shooting his loads at. The #311466 has a blunter nose than the #314299, with a correspondingly lower ballistic coefficient. He says that he's getting good accuracy out to 600 yards, but after that the accuracy falls off. This could be that his bullets are going through the transonic zone at this range. When a bullet is traveling at supersonic speeds it's pushing the air ahead of it in a compressed shockwave. In this situation the bullet is basically traveling in a near vacuum. As the velocity of the bullet slows to below the speed of sound this shockwave collapses on the bullet, which can cause buffeting and instability. Further, while supersonic the bullet was not only traveling down range in a pocket of near vacuum, but it was also spinning like a top with almost no resistance. As soon as the shockwave collapses on the bullet the drag from the air will impact on the bullets rotation.

What this means is that if a bullet is traveling at supersonic speeds during it's whole flight it can remain stable. If a bullet is traveling below the speed of sound during it's whole flight it will also remain stable. However, if a bullet transitions from supersonic to subsonic during it's flight its stability might get compromised. Check the ballistic coefficient of your bullet, and the velocity that you're shooting it at, against a ballistics table and see where it's dropping below the speed of sound. If that's at around 600 yards it might indicate what's going on. If this is the case, either try increasing the velocity (which might introduce a whole other set of problems), or try shooting a bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient.

All this aside, for best accuracy you want to make the best quality bullets that you can cast.

What you say is very good, and although you can work on the transonic, the idea of increasing the weight of the boolit a bit so as not to go so high with speed...
The boolit I used (311466) with my alloy weighs about 146 grains, and I push it at 2600 fps with relatively good accuracy, that's just over 500m.
So the plan is to try other boolits (170 and 190 grains) to go a little further.

[405grain]

The Lyman #311466 is listed in the ballistic charts in the back of the 3rd edition Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, but their data only goes up to 2300 fps. The bullet has a ballistic coefficient of .250. At 2300 fps it will transition from sonic to subsonic at just over 500 yards. I would suspect that with your 2600 fps loads your bullets should remain supersonic for longer. Passing through the transonic zone may be whats causing your accuracy to drop off after 600 yards. I suggest that you try the #314299 and see if you get better results.

I've been shooting 7.65x53 using a sporterized 1908 Brazilian Mauser action and a brand new, but surplus, 1909 Argentine barrel. I've had my best results shooting the Lyman # 311284 that was designed for the 30-40 Krag. I powder coat this bullet, then size it to .312" diameter. I've been using a charge of 24.0 grains of Shooter's World Buffalo Rifle (very similar to 5744). This gives me right around 1900 fps with that long barrel. This has been a very accurate load for me, but I've only shot it out to 200 yards.

[nueces5]

It is good to know that the 311284 is accurate in the 1909 Mauser barrel, I have this same rifle.
A couple of years ago that mold happened near me, and as always when opportunities appear, I had my money destined for other more urgent things.
Anyway, it is very interesting to share your experience, I also coat with pc, then I gascheck and coat again, then I lubricate and sizing
i use orange magic, i have not had good luck with my homemade lubes

there is a page where you can get ballistic tables, which I don't know if they are very precise, but at least it brings us closer to what happens in the range

https://shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php