Euthanasia....

[Rizzo]

My wife and I "Put down" (Euthanized) our dog today.
She was a 13 yr. old Black German Shepherd Female whose hips ultimately could not support her anymore. <sigh>
So we called our vet, she came out and helped us, and now our dog is buried up on the hill with our other previous dogs.
We felt that it was the humane thing to do.

There was an old movie titled "They shoot horses don't they?"
Relating to having to shoot a horse with an unrepairable broken leg.

It got me thinking......

I have a personal experience where a family member was in so much pain,....extreme pain, from cancerous tumors, that the pain meds were not helping. To escape his living hell, he took an overdose of heroin to end it all.

So,...Euthanasia, for humans.
I do not know the answer to this so I submit...

Would God approve of a "saved" person who was in such misery that the person chose Euthansia?

"Thou shalt not kill (murder)" comes to mind but does that include suicide?

Thoughts?

[imashooter2]

I’m no theologian, but I cannot believe the same God that loves me would damn my soul to hell for that sin.

[TJBCS]

Put down a lot of beloved dogs, so my prayers to you and the family. Always hard to decide when to do it.

Good question and I agree it takes deep thought. A priest or pastor would just tell you that euthanasia is wrong and we are not allowed to off people or ourselves just because we are terminal and in pain. In general, I agree with this statement. But you can't account for every situation and God is the final judge of our intent and actions.

Hospice in my opinion is euthanasia slowly. Someone is in major pain and dying and they give morphine until everything shuts down. So in many ways I think we already do it by keeping people comfortable with meds. Had a few folks I knew personally dying of cancer that this is exactly what happened.

There is grace in sickness and suffering but it must be tolerable meaning it doesn't make someone mentally ill to wanting to commit suicide. Man's laws are one thing and we just try to do the best we can to uphold the dignity of the human person but ultimately, God knows the hearts of everyone and is why only he can judge. My 2 cents and how I feel. I don't claim this is the correct answer.

[Bored1]

This is an interesting question, that I am not sure I am wise enough to truly answer. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this.

There are quite a few nuances to all religious "rules" in my opinion, most of which have more grey area in application then when read or spoken.

At what point does good will, or intention take over and supercede the deed? For instance, if a fireman enters a burning structure with the intent to possibly save a person who may or may not be in the building, knowing it is more than likely he will perish doing so, the general consensus is this is not suicide, it is a noble attempt to save others for which God will reward him for. The end result is the fireman making a decision to knowingly carry out actions that lead to his death. This situation can play out with "anyone" inserted in the example, i.e. teacher, soldier, doctor, school bus driver etc. The end result is a foreseeable and avoidable death that was purposely sought, however the intention is viewed as positive and not negative so we/society celebrate the deed and attempt. I find it difficult to address this question without addressing the difference in intentions. Thou shall not murder, but if your protecting yourself or loved ones against a deadly threat it is okay- so where's the line that says it's okay to protect your loved one from a terminal diagnosis or unimaginable pain?

In my opinion, it's the intentions that I will be judged for more than the results.

[GhostHawk]

Well being raised old school, I personally put several cats of our household down. In all cases they were not outside cats. They had never been out of the house. I knew a trip to the vet would be a traumatic experience. They were all old enough that vision was going and they were having trouble with getting up and down the stairs to the liter box.

In all cases they were loved, purring away when a .22 caliber air rifle pellet entered their brain. Lights out. Cats die hard. I would really prefer not to have to do that again. I can not imagine doing it for my wife. Yet I can see that in a few short years I could be facing that.

As for the OP's question. Is it suicide if you just stop eating and drinking?

In most cases suicide is selfish. Your saying your problems are so terrible that you can not face them. But your creating a bigger problem for those you love.

I agree with Bored, intent matters. Method also matters in my opinion. I personally would not want to do something that leaves a mess for someone else to have to clean up.
Or even driving into a bridge support at 130 mph.

In my younger years when times were hard, I was alone and lonely a lot. 3 times I considered checking out. In all 3 cases I found someplace high I could climb. A city water tower, a radio tower, and a tower on a dam. Climb to the top. Ok, you want out, all you have to do is let go. And about that point I would see that I had both arms wrapped around something solid. Well I guess that is your answer then. And eventually I would carefully, climb back down and go back to living life. No matter how hard it was.

Now I am 70 and I do not want to go the way my dad did. Blind, frail, unable to do anything but sit in his chair and yell at mom.
But I know the Lord will not be happy with me if I kill myself. Forgive me in the end, yes I believe he would. But I am not sure I want to risk it.

I had a conversation with my mother some 5 years before she passed. I told her straight out. Mom, 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water, 3 months without food.
I think I knew the day was going to come when Dad was gone and my mom was going to want to join him.

5 years later, dad is gone and my mother stopped eating and drinking. A week later she was gone.

Did I give her a key through a door she wanted badly to go through? Or did I do something I should not have done?
I know that she is with my dad and the Lord. I have flashes of guilt where I wonder if I did the right thing. But I don't think I will know for sure until I meet my maker.

I certainly don't know the answer to this question.

I hope the Lord calls me when I am asleep and I do not have to face it.

Is it suicide to stop taking your blood pressure medication and pray for a massive stroke that ends your life?
Or to just stop eating and drinking?

For those who are in massive amounts of pain there has to be a way.

[augercreek]

That is a tough nut to crack! And no amount of thought will settle it! So all I can say is we must give ourselves as a living sacrifice to God and let him rule!

[dverna]

IMO, God forgives every sin except one. And this is not the one.

[Nobade]

When my dad got too bad they put him in palliative care. That is where they hook you to a morphine drip and don't give you any water until you die. He lasted two weeks after that started. Sure, we all got to go see him and talk to his unconscious body but he was still in there suffering. A huge dose of morphine or the barbiturates we just used on my cat this week would have been so much more humane. Letting someone die slowly from lack of water while kept immobile is a terrible thing to do.

[square butte]

I cannot even imagine beginning to speak for someone else on this matter - What i know is that sometimes the very best learning or healing comes in the last moments or most painful moments. Those moments are between me and the Lord - And I love the Lord so much that I would never want to lose those moments between me and him, Or lose the healing or learning that might be available in those moments that i can carry through into the next life without this body. Some folks do come to Christ at the LAST moment. I would not want anyone drugging me out of one single moment of this life. I deeply respect every man's decision on these complex matters

[MT Gianni]

I am in a class working on end of life paperwork. If you have none the DR's will keep you alive at all costs. I believe if you choose for them to only medicate pain in that situation you will get pneumonia and pass inside of a couple of weeks if that is your intention. Does no action on your part equal a suicide? I don't believe so. When I look at the nursing home situation I really consider the choices of the old native Americans who would slip out of their tent in a snowstorm and go for a walk.

[HollowPoint]

In my less than knowledgeable understanding of the redemption that Jesus Christ blessed his followers with, I am given to believe that we have been forgiven of all of our sins, past, present and future.

If suicide is a sin and you are a follower/believer in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ then, yea, you are forgiven. When you add onto that the omniscience of our God, don't you think that He would already know what would drive an individual to commit suicide in the first place.

Arguments could easily be made against my perspectives about this topic by bringing up caveats like, divine healing but, I know an awful lot of sick Christians who are guilt-tripped on a daily basis for not having enough faith to be healed. Many are sanctimoniously ushered into an early grave by these religious gilt-trips. I also know several folks who have actually been miraculously healed and they weren't even confessing "Christians." They were just prayed for by the laying on of hands and they were healed.

I do profess to be a Christian and I too have been healed of conditions that I was told would never go away so, what are we to think about these, being healed or not being healed possibilities?

Before Jesus was hung on the cross and died in order that we could be redeemed, I distinctly recall reading in the Bible that (paraphrasing) they couldn't take his life. He gave it up willingly.
As He hung on the cross, didn't he state, "Father, into your hands I submit my spirit?" He chose to die at that moment. Can this be characterized as suicide?

I don't think it can but, I mention it because my own ignorance on this topic leads me to believe that God understands why one would do such a thing as take their own life. Still, there are so many negative nuances to this subject and when you start talking about euthanasia or, what we humans can mis-label as "Mercy Killing," in my mind this becomes a treacherously slippery slope. It brings to mind, abortion.

HollowPoint

[1hole]

In my less than knowledgeable understanding of the redemption that Jesus Christ blessed his followers with, I am given to believe that we have been forgiven of all of our sins, past, present and future.

If suicide is a sin and you are a follower/believer in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ then, yea, you are forgiven.
HollowPoint

Amen. We - men - can get our minds in a hopeless tangle when we start trying to speak for God about our own unknowables. That should not be.

Two things we know - or should know - about God is that he (1) measures the heart, not the deed and (2) no one has ever gone to hell for sins of the flesh, it's an unbelieving and selfish heart which rejects God and seeks sin that goes to hell. (See John 3:17)

I once had a close friend who died from spine cancer. He literally hurt to death in daily sweat-popping pain; it took a year of agony for his racing heart to finally give out. I don't want to see that again and I don't want to see anyone's loving family watching it either. He didn't do it but I know a bit about serious pain and I probably would have.

So, IMHO, whether suicide is a "sin" or not shouldn't be the issue to us. I won't harshly judge anyone in enough pain to choose that shortcut to the inevitable end. That determination is way above my pay grade!

Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!

[Bigslug]

I always figured the religious prohibition against suicide was contrived by the church/state at a time when life was generally pretty bad. You promise the taxpaying peasants paradise after they die if they behave themselves, but you need a Suicide = Hell clause in there to keep them from offing themselves when they get tired of going outside their mud hut just to plow your fields every day of their nasty, brutish, and short lives.

For better or worse, we are certainly good, technically, at prolonging the agony. I too have witnessed the German Shepherd hips phenomenon and seen that it's possible to suffer a lot longer with outside support than you would if nature took its course and the hyaenas (or scavenger/predator of your choice) had their way with you. For the believers out there, it begs the question - which of those two paths is God's?

On the other extreme, one of our elderly cats was diagnosed with a large bone cancer growth in her jaw. After a pain injection to let her stay home for a couple days to say our goodbyes showed signs of wearing off, we took her in for the final O.D. of barbiturates. The instant transition between "tensed look of pain" to "relaxed look of peace" as she was passing pretty well sealed my opinion on the subject.

I'm not one for the traditional belief structures, but if it's God creating the pain, it's also God providing the pathways out of it, and the measure of that pain should determine the time to go. Whether it's from the kind hand of another, or the John Browning Assisted Departure Plan, it probably doesn't matter.

[Harter66]

My Dad went from ground work on a backhoe to unable to care for himself at all in 12 days . He was sent home with a script for thorazine(sp) that was 30 pills of about 25 times a nominal dosage for a person "needing a tranquilizer" to subdue a rage . 3 days before that they had him on a med that replaced a liver hormone that could have easily give him another 3-5 yr of good life .

I figure knowing what I know now about his conditions and my current situation I have 12-15 yr left and will likely do everything I can to hold out long enough so my Mom doesn't have to bury her only child .

I've lost and put down a few dogs , the last with lymphoma 10 months after my Dad passed . I I can't tell you it was the hardest day of my life but it was supremely difficult to such a degree that I've decided that it's just easier to not have any more pets .

It is obvious that modern medicine gave my Dad some choices and with particular events withheld certain options and gave him the option of "the easy way out" . He had the bottle in hand but had made his peace and passed without opening it. Most of 3 generations passed quietly to my knowledge having simply given up the fight and made their peace . In fact Moms Mom was in her last hours getting a little bit impatient with her escort having no sense of urgency at all .

Every person should be able to decide when enough is enough, when they have fought long enough. I'm not a fan of the Kovorkian method , a body aught to be able to change their mind .

God's law ....... Thou Shalt Not Kill seems pretty clear .
I asked a very open minded but devote person once and over time 3 Methodist, an Episcopal, and a Pentacostal minister as well as a Mormon Bishop , "if the Commandments say thou Shalt Not Kill, what of our servicemen ?". The response was more or less from the Old Testament and fell into the Laws of Man from God under the eye for an eye and if the beast of the field gores a man unprovoked it should be rendered dead and left to rot to bones in the sun . Out of text and in context more or less if the soldier doesn't lust after death or take pleasure from it they have not sinned in the greater duty .

Suicide is a sin . It is the conscious decision to kill for self gratification . To end ones life to end ones perceived failings, dissatisfaction, unhappiness etc fits .
To give ones life knowingly for another's would be the true way of Christ and to a similar degree Moses and Abraham . Maybe this is where the soldier fits .

Taking ones life knowingly when the end is emanate, the pain , real physical suffering........? I don't know . It would be a deliberate decision wouldn't it ?

A question like this has been debated for millennia . The answer is there's only one way to find out .

[Thundarstick]

I've witnessed it both ways. I had a first cousin that was like a little brother who killed the man his wife was running round with, then killed himself, I thought that nearly killed me! A little over two years ago my oldest daughter took her own life and that is still like a sword running through my heart. On the other hand, my Mother in law had a fast progression of pulmonary fibrosis, there is no cure, she lay there gasping for air and with what breath she had, begged God to take her home. The only release was in the morphine! She passed with peace and dignity. I don't pretend to know the answer to the original question, but I do know that the grace of our God is greater than all our sins!
I'll pose a counter question though, does modern medicine interfere with God's natural plan? Is it a sin to fight off God's plan that we naturally die?

[Lloyd Smale]

i dont pass judgment on anyone. Thats Gods job. Only he knows the answer to that question.

[dverna]

i dont pass judgment on anyone. Thats Gods job. Only he knows the answer to that question.

That is certain.

But let us not mix up euthanasia and suicide. I see them as different subjects. People commit suicide for many reasons...from dealing with awful pain, or guilt, or even being bullied on Facebook.

[Wag]

Many years ago, I wrote a paper on this subject when I was getting my degree and my ultimate conclusion is:

It's your life, you decide.

If you want to live through whatever suffering you have, do it. If you want to end your suffering by ending your life, do that.

There are those who are quadriplegic, however, or have other disabilities who can't end their own lives but if they are able to ask, a doctor should be able to assist them with meds. But there are even those who cannot ask so we can't make that decision for them.

It begs the question as alluded to in another thread where we have to write up instructions on what our loved ones are to do if we're no longer able to ask.

The flip side is, if you're in pain and agony but you still love your life, then live it!! Nothing wrong with that and nobody should ever make that decision for you. Otherwise, we're in a society of Megele-style killers.

--Wag--

[.429&H110]

My dad was 89 when he passed.
He had Alzheimer's enough so that he didn't know where he was.
He was a big man, and a problem when he got loose.
He died of dehydration on MLK birthday
when the help took the long weekend off.

Will my last days be different?
Only if I want them to be.
A good read on the subject is "House of God" by Shem.
Has nothing to do with God, it's the name of a hospital.

First rule of reloading is
"Do not shoot other people's handloads."
What works for you might not work for me.
The exception that proves the rule is God's Word.

Thank you for the thread, good topic...

[HollowPoint]

My dad was 89 when he passed.
He had Alzheimer's enough so that he didn't know where he was.
He was a big man, and a problem when he got loose.
He died of dehydration on MLK birthday
when the help took the long weekend off.

Will my last days be different?
Only if I want them to be.
A good read on the subject is "House of God" by Shem.
Has nothing to do with God, it's the name of a hospital.

First rule of reloading is
"Do not shoot other people's handloads."
What works for you might not work for me.
The exception that proves the rule is God's Word.

Thank you for the thread, good topic...

We lost our mom a couple of years back to the same Alzheimer symptoms. She was about the same age, and she could no longer recognize any of us. She didn't know who we were or even who she was.
Earlier, during a time when she did have sufficient wits about her, she did leave written instructions to let her expired if she were ever to find herself in a medical state of not being able to make such a decision on her own. Those documents were kept by my oldest sister.

Perhaps for the most selfish of reasons, our sister chose to tear up those documents and throw them away. When she told us what she had done, none of her six siblings objected. This too was equally selfish but, none of us could bear the thought of allowing our mom to die, regardless of the circumstances. It didn't matter that she didn't know who we were when we'd visit her in the nursing home. She was still our mom.

It was strange to me that she didn't know who her own kids were but, when one of my nieces or nephews would bring their small children to visit her, she never forgot what a baby was. A baby meant, family. She would always take them in her arms and love them like one would expect for a grandma to do.

All of our prayers and all of our well-wishing didn't turn the tide. Eventually we got that phone call that kids who love their parents dread having to receive. She passed away in her sleep, according to the nursing home staff. We were glad she was free from that Alzheimer scourge but, we were enormously saddened that we had lost part of the glue that holds a family together.

Should we have honored her wishes to let her die if she ever found herself in a circumstance where she couldn't have made such a decision on her own? It was about eight years between the time she had documented her wishes till the day she died.

Our mom was a confessing Christian too. We'll follow along eventually so, if apologies are due, that will be the time and the place where one would imagine that apologies would take place; although, if or when we make it to Heaven, nothing about what transpired in this earthly life will really matter anymore, will it?

HollowPoint

[Chena]

I am of two minds: Yes for humanitarian reasons in cases of unending, acute pain; no for legal reasons as it would become a very slippery slope. Insurance companies and government both have a fiscal interest in reducing long term care. No clue what the Almighty thinks.

[Kosh75287]

FIRST, you have my deepest most heartfelt condolences on the loss of your dog. We had to put down our 17-year old best buddy (Border Collie/Bird Dog) on July 4th, and it hurt like hell. He was in so much pain he was screaming, like he was being burned alive.

I know that prime-time sit-coms are NOT usually the right place to look for guidance on such matters, but I am reminded of an episode of "Night Court" (Season 4, Episode 12) in which a bereaved wife (played by Florence Stanley) tries to confess to murdering (shooting) her husband to cover his suicide.
One of the "less cerebral" characters on the show finally explains to her that, because her husband was in such awful pain his suicide was no shame on his or her part.
"There's just some places that God doesn't want us to go, alone!" was the line. It has stuck with me for 39 years, especially in situations of extreme suffering, that you describe.

[MT Gianni]

We lost our mom a couple of years back to the same Alzheimer symptoms. She was about the same age, and she could no longer recognize any of us. She didn't know who we were or even who she was.
Earlier, during a time when she did have sufficient wits about her, she did leave written instructions to let her expired if she were ever to find herself in a medical state of not being able to make such a decision on her own. Those documents were kept by my oldest sister.

Perhaps for the most selfish of reasons, our sister chose to tear up those documents and throw them away. When she told us what she had done, none of her six siblings objected. This too was equally selfish but, none of us could bear the thought of allowing our mom to die, regardless of the circumstances. It didn't matter that she didn't know who we were when we'd visit her in the nursing home. She was still our mom.

It was strange to me that she didn't know who her own kids were but, when one of my nieces or nephews would bring their small children to visit her, she never forgot what a baby was. A baby meant, family. She would always take them in her arms and love them like one would expect for a grandma to do.

All of our prayers and all of our well-wishing didn't turn the tide. Eventually we got that phone call that kids who love their parents dread having to receive. She passed away in her sleep, according to the nursing home staff. We were glad she was free from that Alzheimer scourge but, we were enormously saddened that we had lost part of the glue that holds a family together.

Should we have honored her wishes to let her die if she ever found herself in a circumstance where she couldn't have made such a decision on her own? It was about eight years between the time she had documented her wishes till the day she died.

Our mom was a confessing Christian too. We'll follow along eventually so, if apologies are due, that will be the time and the place where one would imagine that apologies would take place; although, if or when we make it to Heaven, nothing about what transpired in this earthly life will really matter anymore, will it?

HollowPoint

Today the paperwork gets filed with your local doctor and in a hospital shared file. If you are conscious you can rescind those written instructions and state your wishes. If you are not they cannot be changed by family. One of my brothers business partners spent over 3 million dollars to keep their father alive when he had been on a ventilator for over 2 years. Todays' medical professionals will let you spend all the money you have to keep someone alive and prevent a lawsuit charging them with not doing their all.

[Lloyd Smale]

That is certain.

But let us not mix up euthanasia and suicide. I see them as different subjects. People commit suicide for many reasons...from dealing with awful pain, or guilt, or even being bullied on Facebook.

I live with physical pain every day. Have since 1973. Ive had 15 operations and go in wendsday for number 16 a spinal fusion. Physical pain i can deal with but mental pain can be every bit as debilitating as physical pain. Ive been around severely mentally disabled veterans. Believe on thing. If anything its much harder to deal with then physical pain. I cant imagine living in the body of someone who life sucks so badly that he kills himself. Now thats some pain. I have to believe that my loving God would forgive a soul for that. I would pray he would if for no other reason then to help those parents suffering with that loss. So where do you draw the line as to who goes to heaven and who doesnt. The young kid that got hooked on drugs due to peer pressure or the wife who got hooked after a surgery? The parent that feels guilt because there kid commited suicide?? The soldier that lives every day with the guilt of taking a life. The poor child that gets relentlessly picked on in school and even physicaly attacked and doesnt see an end to it?? The guy with terminal cancer that lives in agony and knows theres no end and its going to get worse?? The disabled vet that lost both his legs and a arm at 19 and is looking at a life i wouldnt want?? I fall into a couple of those catagorys and wont say which but i have learned to deal with it. Was it a struggle at times? Hell yes. But thats me. Not everyone is as bullheaded and mentaly tough as me. Yes ive leaned on God many times. But as to God putting every suicide victim in hell id say that is a mindset brought to you by the church not by God. If you believe in that then everyone thats overweight, drinks, smokes, drives to fast or eats the wrong food that they know could possibly kill them will end up in hell. Like i said i dont judge. Ill leave that to God and he loves ALL of us.

[Lloyd Smale]

ill give you one more example to chew on. My mother Dad died two years ago. My ma and dad were as close as they get and best friends all there lives. They were both devout catholics. the local priest came to there home every friday night for supper. When Dad died at 89 a piece of her died too. She always did suffer a bit with depression and anxiety and took meds most of her life. She also suffered in pain for the last 10 years and couldnt walk without a walker and barely with that. Dad had to do about everything for her. She went down hill fast when dad died and about 10 months later my sister found her slumped over in the bathroom. The ambulance took her to the hospital and the doc said because she had say in that slumped over position (no doubt because she couldnt get up and dad wasnt there to help her) for so long that it can actually shut down body functions and her liver was all buy about shut down.

She did wake up for a bit and the doctor had me my sister and her in the room and told her that he could put her on dialysis and keep her alive but she would probably never leave the hospital and he didnt know at her age how long that would even keep her alive. He said the other alternative was to basically go home and do hospice till she past. She said one word. HOME!. after that she drifted in and out but never said a word. So we brought her home and she died that first night. she wouldnt even take meds or a drink of water. Now she would NEVER commit suicide and honestly was depressed enough at times that she prayed for God to take her. Some who judge would say her giving up and going home was suicide and honestly id have a hard time arguing for her. Do you think she went to hell for not taking all the chances put in front of her to stay alive? Me i think God was right there. The last time i saw her smile was when the priest that was her friend came in and gave her last rites. When he was done he did a sign of the cross on her forehead and she cracked a slight smile

[Wag]

Lloyd, I have to say that if I believed in a god, your version is the one I would choose.

I'll just leave it at that......

--Wag--

[GhostHawk]

Lloyd we all have choices in this life. Most of them that are wrong choices we have the chance to repent and ask for forgiveness.

My Lord MADE me, he knows me better than I know myself. I believe in a loving God and son not a stern and law filled one.

FIrst of all in your sisters case, it is her body and her life. I do not think he would consider her need to go home to die a sin. I really don't.
I think at that point even if no one else got through to her. I think the Lord would be telling her that her race was almost over. That she needed to prepare for that.

I think the smile at the last rights was the completion of the last thing on her list.
I believe the Lord himself was there to take her home.


When my father died I asked after 2 weeks where he was, how it was with him.
I was told he was doing penance. Being punished for what he did to those around him in the last years of his life.
When mom passed I was told she was able to visit and enourage him. Within a month his penance completed he was with Mom and our Lord.

So I believe there are options other than the black and white hell or heaven.

I do believe that truly repenting of all sins, both of commision and ommision, those remembered and those forgotten makes a HUGE difference.
I believe your sister did that. I believe the Holy Spirit when he tells me your sister is not in hell. She is with the Lord and happy. I truly believe this and hope it brings some peace. God Bless and Keep you Lloyd.

May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious
unto you and give you His peace. May you humble yourself and pray for your family, church, and
nation. His eyes are open, His ears are attentive, and His heart is with you.

This I believe.

But don't take my word for it, ask him yourself!

[HollowPoint]

I blame the misinterpretations of the Word of God by organized religion when it comes to the real lack of understanding surrounding euthanasia or suicide. There is far more to these subjects in terms of spirit mind and body and we're only seeing it from the outside looking in.

The only consolation I can wring out of this lack of true understanding is that God is the ultimate judge, not us.

HollowPoint

[Lloyd Smale]

The only consolation I can wring out of this lack of true understanding is that God is the ultimate judge, not us. Add that God loves each and every one of us and we must believe in him and that IS religion the rest is fluff.

[lightman]

Lloyd, its good to see you posting again. Good Luck with the coming surgery, hope its successful.

I'll have to ask my BIL about this euthanasia thing the next time I see him. He is a Bible Scholar, has a PHD in Religion and has taught at the college level. He has also pastured several churches. He knows more about the Bible than anyone that I know.

[Milky Duck]

I’m no theologian, but I cannot believe the same God that loves me would damn my soul to hell for that sin.

AMEN to that...and I will say no more...this subject is very divisive in the Christian community.

[Lloyd Smale]

Lloyd, its good to see you posting again. Good Luck with the coming surgery, hope its successful.

I'll have to ask my BIL about this euthanasia thing the next time I see him. He is a Bible Scholar, has a PHD in Religion and has taught at the college level. He has also pastured several churches. He knows more about the Bible than anyone that I know.

surgery is tommarow. Getting a bit nervous this morning. Like you know ive had MANY MANY surgerys but theres something about screwing a cage to your spine and transplanting cadaver bone that gives me the creeps. That and i spent almost two years in the hospital back in the 70s and the doc told me id probably be there for two days and honestly id rather be in jail for two days. He told me too to start facing the fact im old and beat up because this is the last time he can go through my back to work on my spine due to scaring. He said next time its through the side and outcomes arent as reliable like that. He told me to put away the side by side and the harley and snowmobiles and dont even think about riding them. My wife told him "good luck with that"

[square butte]

You are in my prayers Lloyd

[fixit]

I have a different take than has been discussed here, probably, in part, due to my wife being a hospice nurse. My biggest problem with euthanasia, or death with dignity, as the euphemism goes, is that an entire class people is given an open ended power to kill people! It's not spoken of frequently in these discussions, but in the places where this is law, the elderly can becomes fearful of any inpatient procedures, due to stories, maybe true, maybe not, of people being "suicided" without their permission. There are already known cases where depression was declared reason enough for a minor to end his or her life, over the objections of parents. (I don't believe that has happened in the USA, yet) as for end of life and hospice, I believe hospice workers have the hearts of angels! The comfort they provide goes way beyond those dying. Their job is make the transition from this world as comfortable as possible, as well as to assist the living with grieving. If there was one thing I would seek for end of life matters, it would be no restrictions on pain management protocols.

[dannyd]

Putting down an animal and putting down a human are very different according to the King James Bible.

An animal has no chance of redemption by accepting Christ as their savior, but any human does until the last millisecond of life.

So it may be Prudent to give the human every bit of time we can to make that decision. Once the lights go out there's no second chance.

That's the King James Bible's take on it; your mileage may very.

[Eddie Southgate]

If the Euthanized were Chrisleys , Kardashians , Presleys and some of the current crop of influencers I think God would be on board.

[1hole]

...."if the Commandments say thou Shalt Not Kill, what of our servicemen ?". The response was more or less from the Old Testament and fell into the Laws of Man from God under the eye for an eye and......

We tend to miss the point of a lot of scripture because we don't know much about how old testament people lived. "An eye for an eye ..." is NOT authorization to vent our rage at anyone, it simply forbids extracting a punishment worse than the crime.


Suicide is a sin . It is the conscious decision to kill for self gratification .

Suicide has to be a "sin"? I don't know if that's really true or not but even if it's true, so what? I mean, would it not be just another sin that Jesus has already paid our debt for? Whatever, there is only ONE unforgiveable sin and suicide is not it! The cross paid for all of our other failings.

[augercreek]

If suicide is a sin and you must repent of your sins to be forgiven, how can you repent before the act? In order to enter heaven you must repent of ALL your sins!

[dannyd]

If suicide is a sin and you must repent of your sins to be forgiven, how can you repent before the act? In order to enter heaven you must repent of ALL your sins!


If you read the King James Bible suicide is not a sin; once a person is saved they are always saved.

Saved people get into Circumstances beyond what their Mind Can Control and think that's the only way out too.

There are Homeless people using drugs and wondering the streets right now that got saved when they were younger and if the Horn blew today they would go home to be with the Lord.

Pew Warmer's that give Big Money to Churches hate that Statement, but that's True New Testament Gospel for the age of grace in this dispensation we are in today.

Unfortunately people listen to the word's of man instead of READING their Bible.

[1hole]

If suicide is a sin and you must repent of your sins to be forgiven, how can you repent before the act? In order to enter heaven you must repent of ALL your sins!

Auger, you've been given an erroneous denominational and badly distorted - manmade - view of repentance and salvation.

There is no Biblical demand for a moment by moment checklist of repented vs. unrepented sins before the unconfessed sinner is totally forgiven for being another imperfect soul saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ. Born again believers are saved eternally, not saved for a brief moment in time.

One denomination in particular wrongly seeks to grip its adherents with frightened emotional dependence on man's rules, including constant acts of "confession and repentance" (their confessions are expected to be formally given to one of their appointed priesthood staff, not in direct prayer to God because they're taught that's not good enough). Fact is, none of their "do this plus that" doctrine for a moment of confessed salvation is true.

We sinners need to recognise that we were and remain sinners. Our love for Jesus should motivate us to live more like Him every day, not to live in fear and dread that He might abandon us to hell for failing a rule. The impossibility of salvation by following man's traditions and rules was the specific old testament motivation that led Jesus to the cross!

Any religious organization using fear of God's retribution to better control its members is teaching an unbiblical gospel of salvation by faith in Jesus plus following their supposedly spiritual rules!. At its best that's NOT "Christian" no matter what they claim about themselves.

So, don't sweat all that confessional/repenting small stuff because God is not petty. Those souls who have honestly been born again have been accepted/adopted into God's eternal family by our faith in Jesus and that's not a brief moment-by-moment, in and out salvation obtained by following anyone else's rules.

Bottom line, those who have been forgiven the big stuff have also been forgiven the trivial stuff. Including confessions.

(See John 3:16-18 and while you're there, note there is no mention of any purgatory where we can finish what Jesus started - Jesus himself is the once and done author and finisher of our faith, not we our confessing/repenting selves! ... Heb 12:2)

[.429&H110]

My wife is convinced her dogs went to heaven,
because of Job 12:9,10

Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
Amen

Genesis entrusts Man with dominion, a stewardship over all the earth.
The Shepherd calls some to be sheepdogs because He also made wolves.
Without the Sword of the Spirit we are clueless, guessing.

Our soul is on this earth for a span of days, known only to God.
When God calls time, I don't believe the manner of passing matters.
Although the deceiver can kill our spirits, kill our bodies, steal our souls,
we have to choose to let that happen.
Choose well.

[Eddie Southgate]

I'm sure animals will be in heaven , have never had the first doubt. My wife on the other hand says animals won't go to heaven as they have no soul. I can't believe that god made any living creature without a soul.

[1hole]

I'm sure animals will be in heaven , have never had the first doubt.

Well Ed, we know there will be a quite large herd of white horses waiting for all of us in heaven don't we? :)

[Hogtamer]

James wrote, “mercy triumphs over judgement.” I believe that.

[Bmi48219]

I was conversing with my brother yesterday on a similar topic.
Whatever comes to us, be it happiness, illness, fortune or tragedy, is a manifestation of God’s love for us. Just as winning a million bucks may be a way we can share His love (or allow greed to consume us); injury of illness of ourselves or a loved one, that on its face seems like a curse, may be an opportunity to show our love or support and thereby living as Jesus lived.

Nothing ‘happens’ without a reason. To truly love God is to accept whatever He sends us and find a way to be better or make someone else’s life better because of it.
In her last few months my mother’s cancer caused her terrible pain. There was nothing we could do to relieve her, except administer morphine. Dad was opposed to that idea, but she was dying anyway so the morphine was the only loving option we had.
I don’t consider allowing someone to peacefully depart a body wracked with constant, fatal pain to be euthanasia. If I become that patient, I hope someone will release me.

[.429&H110]

"In my Father's house there are many mansions"

We bless dogs and pray with them and for them
not sure about baptizing them, but they get a bath anyway.

[Rizzo]

First off, I want to thank those that offered condolences to me about the loss of my family dog.
There is certainly a void in the house now that will take awhile to adjust to.
It is much appreciated.

Secondly, thank you all for your input and those that shared their stories of friends, family and your personal experience on the Euthanasia issue.

To Lloyd Smale, although it may be too soon after your latest surgery to know how things went, I wish you good health and hopefully you'll be out "spinnin' donuts" in your side by side very soon.

In the first post I asked:

"Would God approve of a "saved" person who was in such misery that the person chose Euthansia?
Thou shalt not kill (murder)" comes to mind but does that include suicide?" "

From the posts made, the consensus seems to be that Suicide (Euthanasia for those with extreme suffering) is a sin but because the person is "Saved", his/her sin is forgiven.
That is comforting to know.

However, suicide, in the case of not being in the Euthanasia realm , would also be forgiven....if the person is "Saved".

So, for those who are tired of this physical life, there would appear to be an open door to commit suicide in order to hasten their meeting up with Jesus on the other side.

Something seems wrong with that notion.

Confused again............

Thoughts on this issue?

[1hole]

.... However, suicide, in the case of not being in the Euthanasia realm , would also be forgiven....if the person is "Saved".

So, for those who are tired of this physical life, there would appear to be an open door to commit suicide in order to hasten their meeting up with Jesus on the other side.

Something seems wrong with that notion.

Confused again............

Thoughts on this issue?

Thoughts? Yeah, I sorta do.

First, about what being "saved" means. It's not something mystical, it means we are saved from the normal effects of being lost in our sin. The wages of sin is (spiritual) death and Jesus has paid that penalty, in full, for his followers so we are said to be "saved"; that would have to include suicide. Otherwise we'd only be "sorta saved" from "most" of our mortal failings and that would make no sense. I say believers are totally saved from all sin or we are not truly saved at all but we ARE truly saved and I really like that!

Second, if you think about the basic 10 point list of what is rightly called sin you will see that it ALL falls into two categories; we're told (1) not to disrespect our God (that hurts us, not Him) and (2) to do no harm to other people ... and then we're told to not even think of doing so! In other words, it's clearly a sin to deliberately harm or wish harm or insult to others but how does suicide fit into that? I don't think it fits at all but, if I'm wrong, what dark and evil harm to others has any pained suicider done to deserve hell when his life becomes more than he can bear? Don't be confused, there's nothing wrong or mixed about that notion.

In fact, I believe it's an insult to our loving God to believe He would judge hell for the poor souls who mean no harm are driven to step out of the waiting line and go to Him now rather than continuing to endure hopeless agony. (Perhaps those who won't agree need to experience a few educational months of terminal 24/7 sweat popping physical or mental anguish for themselves? ;))

[Gobeyond]

Both of us would drink all of the cup of the Lord.

[dverna]

It is my understanding that once you accept Jesus as your Savoir, you are granted eternal life by His grace. Every...and I mean every sin...except denying God, is forgiven.

Lloyd....hope you are doing well.

[Alabama358]

1 Samuel chapter 31:4

4 Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.

So it looks like Saul committed suicide here and I am pretty sure he is with the LORD. I make this assumption by the conversation Saul with Samuel a few chapters back

1 Samuel chapter 28:19
19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

[38SuperAuto]

Would God approve of a "saved" person who was in such misery that the person chose Euthansia?

"Thou shalt not kill (murder)" comes to mind but does that include suicide?

Thoughts?

Here's the issue with suicide: God calls you to sacrifice like the example He set for us in His Son Jesus. Jesus suffered much pain in the scourging, crowning with thorns, carrying of the cross, and His crucifixion. We are created in the image of God with a body and an eternal soul, so thou should respect your body. God is the author of life, so He determines when life starts and when life ends. We can't possibly imagine how beautiful heaven will be, but Jesus did say to the good thief (who repented), who was being crucified next to him: "today, you will be in paradise."

If you are in your right mind, and not being coerced, and understand that suicide is a grave (mortal) sin, then you are risking your salvation by taking your own life. If you love God above all things, and truly want to serve Him and His people, they live your full life and pray for His mercy.

rob

[.429&H110]

I am very interested in discussions of this subject...
I retired to a retirement community with a big heated pool,
hot tub, pickleball, and Cali refugees.
Average age is over 80.

We mostly have little dogs, and walk them
in the desert sun (scold the coyotes).
(I've seen a big boar javalina up close that needs shooting...)
(Mountain lions wander through, can't shoot them either)
The old folks follow their dogs, and their dogs lead them home.
Some might not find their houses without their dog.
Their little dog brings them home to get dinner.

The lost are terrified of this subject.
So they die of alcoholism.
Isn't that like poisoning oneself?
Social Security check day, the booze aisle at walmart is bare shelves.

The saved around here have an acceptance of the life they have remaining,
some are great evangelists, from a life of witnessing miracles,
and we all are weary of doctors treating while only Jesus heals.

My dad's death certificate said he died at 89 of Alzheimer's and dehydration.
Do I get to choose differently?
God knows.

[1hole]

... If you are in your right mind, and not being coerced, and understand that suicide is a grave (mortal) sin, ....

Super, that's misleading.

Thing is, so far as sin goes, all sins are "mortal". Suicide, combat or evil killing (murder), etc., are just sins. All sins are worthy of hell so raping a resisting nanny goat or stealing a candy bar from Walmart have equal penalties.

Thank God, by the love of Jesus, saved souls have been bought (redeemed) out of sin's deadly bondage. Everyone's total sin record has been paid for by Jesus IF they choose to call on Him as Savior and Lord. By his blood sacrifice, Jesus has already atoned for all of every born again believer's sins. Thus, the only unforgivable - mortal - sin is a lack of willing belief/faith/trust in Jesus as personal savior and King!.

In this life we each make our own eternal choice. We must accept Jesus as our Lord and live eternally with him in heaven or reject him and live an eternal living death in hell with Satan without Him.


...then you are risking your salvation by taking your own life.

Again, there's just ONE unforgivable sin. And suicide - even murder - ain't it. (Mat 12:30-32)


If you love God above all things, and truly want to serve Him and His people, they live your full life and pray for His mercy.

Individual judgement for eternity in heaven or hell is fixed by ourselves at the moment of mortal death. Those who are "born again" believers are already recipients of His mercy but those who are not born again .... well, there's some really bad news! (John 3:3).

Bottomline, people who are not true believers are going to hell at mortal death no matter what prayers they or anyone else may cry, now or later, for "mercy". (John 3:16-18)

Come quickly Lord Jesus! :)

[deces]

If you are Catholic, you can just say 10 Hail Marys afterwards.

[Shanghai Jack]

Well at risk of offending everyone, why is there suffering and evil?

All my parents and grandparents have suffered horribly on the road to eventual death. In suffering there is relentless pain - nothing else. No nobility, no pleasing of a greater power, no guarantee of redemption, no nothing.

I reject the whole "in suffering there is salvation" construct. It is a relic and harkens back to early times, probably most aptly typified in various Monty Python medieval times skits. The way the church kept the hoi polloi in check was to promise the great unwashed that things would be better after they died but they had to behave and walk in lockstep with the church's teachings and endure their current sufferings. If they didn't they would be consigned to a place that was worse that what they currently had. Even the densest serf could understand that.

If we are kind enough to spare our four-legged family members continued pain and suffering, then stay out of my way when we want to do the same thing for our two-legged family members. And don't brand me or my loved one with the stigma of "sinner". Its another bs construct.

[Good Cheer]

Jack, asking why is there suffering and evil shouldn't offend anyone who has studied scripture.

[Alabama358]

If you are in your right mind, and not being coerced, and understand that suicide is a grave (mortal) sin, then you are risking your salvation by taking your own life. If you love God above all things, and truly want to serve Him and His people, they live your full life and pray for His mercy.

rob

I suppose if you were a Jew still under the Law...but even then according to James there was no "Grave sin" if you broke one you were guilty of them all.

James 2:10
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

That being said... We are not under the Old Covenant but under the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

In the New Covenant our Salvation is by Grace through Faith and not of works.
Once a person is saved there is nothing that would put their salvation at risk. We have had that yoke taken off

Ephesians 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Sealed is Sealed

[Bigslug]

Rizzo, it really comes down to how deeply into the Christian dogmas you are.

Shanghai Jack comes pretty close to my thinking on the matter - I don't see a benevolent guiding hand anywhere. Such, if it existed, wouldn't play games of "I made heaven first, and it's perfect, but I'm going to make you live through a world of suck to get there, and if you don't do it my way, I'll send you to a world of greater suck forever". That's just one human construct of many for ways in which we can choose (or force) to interact with each other.

And really, what is the benefit to sucking it up, or forcing someone to suck it up to beyond the limits of their endurance? Any benevolent and omnipotent critter that was going to provide a miracle healing would be aware of that limit and do so before it was reached. Ultimately the end comes, and in our final extremity, we're nothing more than a bag of organs waiting for decomposition to start, and it can hurt - a lot - before it does. I'm not about to follow an entity who claims that is necessary.

Primitive, nomadic cultures perhaps provide some guidance here - at the point a member can't migrate, they have to be left behind for the wolves, polar bears, or hyaenas, lest they hold the tribe back to their ultimate doom. Today, we see the same in the physical, mental, and financial drain in terms of effort spent to stave off the inevitable. What good god is going to ask us to suffer to prolong suffering?

As to mental anguish, it's less objectively obvious in how to approach than the physical, but I'd say the same general rules apply. Your limit is your limit, and if the benevolent entity isn't providing relief, deciding it's time to go is nobody's business but your own. Why would a god judge such actions harshly since it presumably knew your limit going in?

[HollowPoint]

I don't want to sound like I'm discounting the seriousness of the original intent of the initial question about "euthanasia" but, at three pages long now it seems that this conversation has become or is becoming overly thought out or overly serious.

I think I'm partly to blame for that.

I should have replied with a bit more levity but, that might have been slightly offensive.

Something like:

In the past I've had the pleasure of traveling to various parts of our world except to those parts of the world which are considered to be parts of Asia. In those places where I have been to, I've found that the youth there all seem to be basically the same. This leads me to believe that the Youth-In-Asia would most likely be no different, other than the different languages spoken.

HollowPoint

[Rizzo]

Rizzo, it really comes down to how deeply into the Christian dogmas you are.

Shanghai Jack comes pretty close to my thinking on the matter - I don't see a benevolent guiding hand anywhere. Such, if it existed, wouldn't play games of "I made heaven first, and it's perfect, but I'm going to make you live through a world of suck to get there, and if you don't do it my way, I'll send you to a world of greater suck forever". That's just one human construct of many for ways in which we can choose (or force) to interact with each other.
I have wondered that myself.
I do believe in God but have wondered why He put us here in this Material World, having to endure all of life's experiences (pain, suffering, misery, sadness, etc., etc.) that we all go through until our ultimate end, rather than just put us in heaven with Him in the first place.
Why did He create us in the first place?
He was lonely?
He needed entertainment... so He put us here to see how we do, knowing what we will have to endure?
I do not know.
I guess that is where Faith comes in to play.
Faith that God knows what He is doing and in the end (after we die) we will understand the "whys".
Your blunt "world of suck...." analogy is pretty much how it really is though. (sigh)


And really, what is the benefit to sucking it up, or forcing someone to suck it up to beyond the limits of their endurance? Any benevolent and omnipotent critter that was going to provide a miracle healing would be aware of that limit and do so before it was reached. Ultimately the end comes, and in our final extremity, we're nothing more than a bag of organs waiting for decomposition to start, and it can hurt - a lot - before it does.
Good points.
Hence, the Euthanasia, (suicide) issue comes into play there also.


I'm not about to follow an entity who claims that is necessary.
Well, that is your choice (Free Will).
You are acknowledging there is an Entity (God) but are somewhat denying Him. That is a Spiritualy dangerous postion to take.
I complain to God on many issues.
I also realize that my intellect isn't high enough to understand Spiritual matters such as these, so I sometimes begrudgingly mutter to myself "Your will Lord, not mine".


Primitive, nomadic cultures perhaps provide some guidance here - at the point a member can't migrate, they have to be left behind for the wolves, polar bears, or hyaenas, lest they hold the tribe back to their ultimate doom. Today, we see the same in the physical, mental, and financial drain in terms of effort spent to stave off the inevitable. What good god is going to ask us to suffer to prolong suffering?

As to mental anguish, it's less objectively obvious in how to approach than the physical, but I'd say the same general rules apply. Your limit is your limit, and if the benevolent entity isn't providing relief, deciding it's time to go is nobody's business but your own. Why would a god judge such actions harshly since it presumably knew your limit going in?
You make some thought provoking points BigSlug.
Thanks for your input.

[Bigslug]

Well, that is your choice (Free Will).
You are acknowledging there is an Entity (God) but are somewhat denying Him. That is a Spiritualy dangerous position to take.

Not particularly. The Greeks figured we were playthings of the various gods, and appeasing one might offend another. If you place no bet on any of them, you can at least hope they'll be disinterested in you when they choose to get their giggles.


I guess that is where Faith comes in to play.
Faith that God knows what He is doing and in the end (after we die) we will understand the "whys".

When Eisenhower had the objective of liberating Europe, he at least told his guys WHY he was putting them into Higgins boats and C-47's to risk getting blasted into giblets so they'd have a definite sense of where to go and what to do. In contrast, we don't even have a clear message of WHICH god's direction to follow, or if there actually even is any, so what, exactly, are we supposed to put our trust in? The Christian construct of suicide/euthanasia being bad is just one of many interpretations in a vast stretch of time. There are others that cast no major stigma on an attitude of "If this is the game, then I don't want to play". For all we know, the ancient Egyptians were right and we should be pickling our entrails is stylish alabaster jars. Tossing virgins into volcanoes might have greater validity than anything the Vatican has handed down. Faith is then deciding who's word you're gonna take for it, and for many, it's whatever brew they grew up pickled in. Until we get an actual booming voice from the sky, we're just going on feels.

[Good Cheer]

I don't want to sound like I'm discounting the seriousness of the original intent of the initial question about "euthanasia" but, at three pages long now it seems that this conversation has become or is becoming overly thought out or overly serious.

I think I'm partly to blame for that.

I should have replied with a bit more levity but, that might have been slightly offensive.

Something like:

In the past I've had the pleasure of traveling to various parts of our world except to those parts of the world which are considered to be parts of Asia. In those places where I have been to, I've found that the youth there all seem to be basically the same. This leads me to believe that the Youth-In-Asia would most likely be no different, other than the different languages spoken.

HollowPoint

When the hormones kick in, yep, young people pretty much the same everywhere.

This video popped up on youtube and well, I was reminded of this thread and I had to come back and post. What a jam session about young people falling in love.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hef5OXHr5I

[Thundarstick]

I would like to point out that God did not put us in THIS world. He created a perfect world with perfect animals and people. Man brought corruption into His creation through sin, and it's this corrupted world we have to suffer through. It's not what God put us in! It's a world mankind corrupted! The place that we think of as heaven, is getting to the original garden, with God dwelling with us. The Bible starts and ends with a tree of life in a garden!

[augercreek]

I believe we ALL have forgotten whose Worldly domain this is right Now! Satan was cast down to this Earth before humans were created and being the fair God that He is, He gave us the power to make our own choices and our parents chose to disobey and do it our way! Have we all not done this many times! I myself did this for 66 years! It took me that long to realize that I'm NOT GOD.

[Wag]

<Snip>

Why would a god judge such actions harshly since it presumably knew your limit going in?

Good post. Mostly follows my own line of thought on the matter.


Why did He create us in the first place?

<Snip>

You make some thought provoking points BigSlug.


Agreed. What would be the purpose of a creation?


I would like to point out that God did not put us in THIS world. He created a perfect world with perfect animals and people. Man brought corruption into His creation through sin, and it's this corrupted world we have to suffer through. It's not what God put us in! It's a world mankind corrupted! The place that we think of as heaven, is getting to the original garden, with God dwelling with us. The Bible starts and ends with a tree of life in a garden!


I believe we ALL have forgotten whose Worldly domain this is right Now! Satan was cast down to this Earth before humans were created and being the fair God that He is, He gave us the power to make our own choices and our parents chose to disobey and do it our way! Have we all not done this many times! I myself did this for 66 years! It took me that long to realize that I'm NOT GOD.

Both of these posts suggest quite thoroughly that god is an absentee landlord who created the earth, put people on it and now wanders the universe without a second thought of us here. Given the suffering we all endure, the notion is fair enough....

In my study of several (not all, or even many) religions, one common thread among them is that they all believe they are the "one true religion of god on the earth." Most of them preach, at one level or another, that only their own adherents are going to heaven and that the rest of the entire planet of people will go to eternal suffering and that they deserve it.

That simply doesn't sound like a loving god who loves his own children.

I watched my wife die with extreme agony. I had ceased to try to believe in a god long before then but after seeing her disease torture her to death, I have no reason to believe that a loving god exists, particularly that as wonderful as she was in every possible way, she was one of the last people on earth to deserve such a fate.

Better to believe no god would do such a thing.

--Wag--

[Bigslug]

I would like to point out that God did not put us in THIS world. He created a perfect world with perfect animals and people. Man brought corruption into His creation through sin, and it's this corrupted world we have to suffer through. It's not what God put us in! It's a world mankind corrupted! The place that we think of as heaven, is getting to the original garden, with God dwelling with us. The Bible starts and ends with a tree of life in a garden!

If one judges the quality of the engineer by how well his airplane flies, then the smoking crater that is mankind should be sufficient evidence to launch an NTSB inquiry into just what cereal box that engineering degree came out of.

If you rate a justice system by the fallout of it's rulings - such as one chick eats a shiny red apple, and tens of billions of innocents end up paying for it - you often find yourself wondering what substances the judge was smoking (maybe THAT'S what "higher power" actually means. . .;)).

As answer to the question posed in the OP, far better to reach your own conclusions and formulate your own plan for getting around - or out - than to rely on the above systems for guidance.

Unfortunately, our flawed god's flawed humans love to meddle in each other's private affairs by thinking they know what's best for others. Gun control, electric cars, religious dogma on how to live or end your life - take your pick. When it comes to your final "exit strategy", it may be prudent to check up on what legal hurdles the meddlers have put in your path.

[Thundarstick]

If one judges the quality of the engineer by how well his airplane flies, then the smoking crater that is mankind should be sufficient evidence to launch an NTSB inquiry into just what cereal box that engineering degree came out of.

If you rate a justice system by the fallout of it's rulings - such as one chick eats a shiny red apple, and tens of billions of innocents end up paying for it - you often find yourself wondering what substances the judge was smoking (maybe THAT'S what "higher power" actually means. . .;)).

As answer to the question posed in the OP, far better to reach your own conclusions and formulate your own plan for getting around - or out - than to rely on the above systems for guidance.

Unfortunately, our flawed god's flawed humans love to meddle in each other's private affairs by thinking they know what's best for others. Gun control, electric cars, religious dogma on how to live or end your life - take your pick. When it comes to your final "exit strategy", it may be prudent to check up on what legal hurdles the meddlers have put in your path.

Not trying to convince you of anything.

[Good Cheer]

We were put here in meat suits to make up our minds whether to love Father or not. It's not reincarnation. We get one pass through the water, then either get welcomed home or booted out. If we weren't such a bunch of screw ups He wouldn't have had to wipe this place clean (Genesis 1) and set it back up for us. He wouldn't have had to sacrifice as Jesus for us.

[.429&H110]

How easily this subject turns to the "Nature of God"!
I do know this much:
He is not Zeus, on a throne with thunderbolts.

The easy, flippant answer to "why would God...?"

is the idea that your question is His proof to you
that you aren't God. He Is.

If you go to your corner church on a Wednesday night
you can respectfully ask these questions
and get respectful answers.
See prayers answered in fellowship.
Or keep looking to find a church that does.
We are not made to face this problem alone.

So I asked the Deacon, whyever did God create Adam?
To tend His garden.
Ok, why did Adam eat the apple, that was Eve's idea?
Because Adam did not want to live forever without her.
Adam ate, knowing he was defying God and would surely die.
Adam was the first suicide?

I am sure God chuckles as He reads this thread.
If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans.
We are created in His image His sense of humor included.
I am not at all making light of suffering, have had my share of pain,
I am urging you to find fellowship, and choose the Light.

Together, we might save America.

[Rizzo]

....then there is the legal side.

I just read an article where the wife of a husband of 50 years shot and killed him in the hospital in a planned murder-suicide plot that was planned three weeks earlier between the two of them.
The police arrived after the husband was shot but before the wife killed herself.

Read here:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-woman-shot-terminally-ill-husband-more-50-years-hospital-murder-suicide-plot-indicted

The indictment states that Ellen Gilland knowingly shot Jerry Gilland "without lawful justification and under circumstances not constituting excusable homicide or murder."

Not sure if she is a Christian, but can't help but think God will forgive her under these circumstances.
Now she'll probably be in jail for the rest of her life. <sigh>

[old sparky]

Philippians 1:21-23 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better.
I have had christian breathren that have suffered terribly before they're passing in the past few years. A few of them were witnesses for Him right up until their last breath. While we are alive we can tell others about Christ just maybe one will come to know Him. After we are gone form this earth we will no longer have the opportunity to be used. Funny thing I can't understand why He would use a undeserving sinner like me. I pray I can have the thoughts Like the apostle Paul and choose to tell others and not focus on myself. I don't think this an easy thing to do. Maybe with the peace that passeth all understanding I can make it. Imagine Hearing "well done my faithful servant"

[1hole]

If you are Catholic, you can just say 10 Hail Marys afterwards.

Sadly, there is a lot of "truth" for Roman Catholics in that man-made doctrine but most Christians strongly disagree because nothing in our un-modified Bibles confirms it.

[.429&H110]

Was reading a modern travelogue "Walking the Bible"
following Moses, the author went to St Catharine's monastery
and admired the burning bush there.
He climbed Mt Sinai, talked to everybody he met.

The author spent the night on Mt Nebo
while reading Deuteronomy 34

I got to speculating:
old man Moses, 120 years old
spent the desert night at 2600 feet altitude in the wind
alone with God, and died.
Apparently God buried Moses.
There are worse deaths, than hypothermia.


The Death of Moses

1And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD shewed him all the land of Gilead, unto Dan, 2And all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim, and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, unto the utmost sea, 3And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar. 4And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither. 5So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. 7And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. 8And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.

[Good Cheer]

Thinking about withholding care as being euthanasia, our means of prolonging the existence of a pain filled body changes all the time. We can stretch out the torture far longer now than just a few years ago and we're getting so much better at it that it's just about getting as goofy as it is expensive.
https://i.imgur.com/DeQmpAp.jpg
When does civilization draw the line? We don't want to go back to the igloo and set the old folks out in the snow. But really, how far down that ol' technocratic trail do we want to go? I really don't think theology is going to be the deciding factor in that decision making.

[.429&H110]

Theology has gotten us into this mess...

from etymologyonline

theology (n.)

mid-14c., "the science of religion, study of God and his relationship to humanity," from Old French theologie "philosophical study of Christian doctrine; Scripture" (14c.), from Latin theologia, from Greek theologia "an account of the gods," from theologos "one discoursing on the gods," from theos "god" (from PIE root *dhes-, forming words for religious concepts) + -logos "treating of" (see -logy). Meaning "a particular system of theology" is from 1660s.

Theology moves back and forth between two poles, the eternal truth of its foundations and the temporal situation in which the eternal truth must be received. [Paul Tillich, "Systematic Theology," 1951]

<...go not to the elves, for they say yes and no. -- JRR Tolkien>

[marklarson]

In my less than knowledgeable understanding of the redemption that Jesus Christ blessed his followers with, I am given to believe that we have been forgiven of all of our sins, past, present and future.

If suicide is a sin and you are a follower/believer in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ then, yea, you are forgiven. When you add onto that the omniscience of our God, don't you think that He would already know what would drive an individual to commit suicide in the first place.

Arguments could easily be made against my perspectives about this topic by bringing up caveats like, divine healing but, I know an awful lot of sick Christians who are guilt-tripped on a daily basis for not having enough faith to be healed. Many are sanctimoniously ushered into an early grave by these religious gilt-trips. I also know several folks who have actually been miraculously healed and they weren't even confessing "Christians." They were just prayed for by the laying on of hands and they were healed.

I do profess to be a Christian and I too have been healed of conditions that I was told would never go away so, what are we to think about these, being healed or not being healed possibilities?

Before Jesus was hung on the cross and died in order that we could be redeemed, I distinctly recall reading in the Bible that (paraphrasing) they couldn't take his life. He gave it up willingly.
As He hung on the cross, didn't he state, "Father, into your hands I submit my spirit?" He chose to die at that moment. Can this be characterized as suicide? Euthanasia is something very controversial, and for me, it's hard to say whether I'm for or against it. Maybe after writing about it, I'll be able to form an opinion. I've found a lot of info, and this link (https://papersowl.com/examples/euthanasia/) with euthanasia essay samples, which is very helpful for me and also informative. They helped me with ideas, and now I need to write my own opinion.

I don't think it can but, I mention it because my own ignorance on this topic leads me to believe that God understands why one would do such a thing as take their own life. Still, there are so many negative nuances to this subject and when you start talking about euthanasia or, what we humans can mis-label as "Mercy Killing," in my mind this becomes a treacherously slippery slope. It brings to mind, abortion.

HollowPoint

Your point of view is very close to mine. "I am given to believe that we have been forgiven of all of our sins, past, present and future." But a sin is a sin, and many people still won't be able to do something considered to be a sin knowing that "All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost". And I don't think that Euthanasia is such a sin.
I can understand why some people are for euthanasia because I can't imagine how hard it is to live in pain, without any chances to get better. All your life is a pain, so I can't judge people for their will finally to rest. Or the relatives of the person who just want to help them.

[Gobeyond]

I don’t think it’s a good idea to kill people. Isn’t there enough of that going on (abortion, wars). Make it available sure for the exceptions. But let righteous people choose what is righteous.

I’m not sure how merciful God is. Obedience might be better. What about going to church, how important is it. What about for the sick? Should everything be overcome to obey God because where God calls He empowers? What about chronic pain. Is it all right to go to church in the comfort of your own home? How merciful is God as a topic for discussion!