Load Development, Fouling and Vertical Stringing

[TJBCS]

I'm familiar with the causes of vertical stringing in general but I'm unsure when it comes to BP load development and fouling control. I was wondering if the experienced BP folks know specific things with these factors that can cause vertical stringing. I was shooting my TD with 68gr of Swiss 1.5 with a .060 wad using 512gr 20-1 cast boolit. It not only shot way higher than the sight setting (I had to to set to around 175yds for 200yd target) but the shots were are center but extreme vertical spread of 12+ inches. I believe the wad adds to the higher POI. I was just using a blowtube of 1 long breath between shots.

Last thing, the bullets are only .459 and much smaller than my groove dia but it seems they were properly obturating since they were center and stable. I would think if them being undersized was the major problem it would not be vertical stringing but more of a trainwreck pattern. Any ideas? Thanks.

[Don McDowell]

Vertical stringing can come from either being fouled out, leading, or inconsistent placement of the rifle in the rest and on the shoulder. Heavy trigger pull can cause problems as well.
Keep in mind those sights are regulated for a 1.1 inch bullet at 1300 fps. Or a 500 gr round nose at 1200.

[BLAHUT]

You did not say how you were measuring your powder ?? Using a cartridge gun, cartridge dirty in side brass. Might try weighing a few of you powder loads ? See if there is a difference between them, for a start ? Usually vertical stringing is caused by, variance in load, Amount of powder, fouled barrel, different primer power, difference in compression of load, bullet fit, bullet weight, wind in your face or behind you, how rifle is held, how / if, sight picture is consent, change in humidity, shooting over water, change in light, shooting off sticks or bags, stable bench, sitting, prone, standing, shooting off sticks - barrel placement on sticks or rest ?

[TJBCS]

Thanks Don and Blahut. Rifle is placement is good but I can always pay more attention to shoulder contact. I weighed all my powders for consistency and cleaned brass properly. And as I said, I'm knowledgeable about the common causes of vertical stringing. Bullet fit is definitely not ideal but my experience is that bullets tend to drift or you create a trainwreck grouping rather than vertical.

I am using magnum primers, so maybe time to try my WLR primers. I know primers are a factor in precision shooting but do you think magnum vs standard primers cause that much deviation?

Understood Don on the 500gr ~1200fps. That is what I am trying to dial in. I did not chrony this time out but i think 68gr plus wad had them moving a little too fast.

[Don McDowell]

For the most part I’ve found magnum primers to be detrimental with black powder
Some of the fake stuff they do help
When you get into the gun and you have to raise or lower the sight picture you need to adjust the front test so that movement is minimalized

[TJBCS]

Understood Don, thanks again. Definitely have several variations I need to try.

[Don McDowell]

Well good luck getting it figured out. The trigger pull on those rifles have never been known for accuracy, unless they've been given a good working on.

[TJBCS]

Thanks and yes the trigger is not great and I can see having vertical stringing issues with it. I'm not sure why I'm so committed to getting a 133 yo rifle to work decently but I guess it is the venture of problem solving and faith. I have made a lot of progress. I could not hit anything past 100yds a few months ago and the shots were all over the place IF they hit the target. Now everything is hitting the target and centered. Very interesting to see lots of big bullet holes lined up top to bottom 12+ inches.

[Don McDowell]

Those old rifles are fun to work with but can be frustrating as well

[Larry Gibson]

TDs are infamous for the first couple shots out of a clean barrel to shoot high like that. However, if the vertical stringing persists after a couple shots then there are other problems.

[Gunlaker]

Fouling control can have a big effect on vertical stringing. Here is an example. My silhouette rifle is a Shiloh in .40-65. A while back I was experimenting with BACO bore wipers and comparing with my standard fouling management of 2 wet patches per shot.

At 200m the first shot from a cold bore is usually around a minute high and to the left. The remaining shots group very tightly. When I use the bore wipers it's a completely different story. Each shot will go progressively higher on the target until the fouling between shots becomes constant. It takes maybe 5 shots to settle in, basically drawing a vertical line up the target. After 5 or 6 shots the rifle starts to group several minutes higher on the target than normal. If I switch back to my regular wiping routine then the shots go back to center.

The effect gets more pronounced the further you shoot. I've spent a ton of time on fouling control, especially with a chronograph, and I can say that fouling control and how good you are at it, is at least as important as load development.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris if you have that sort of problem with the BACO wipers, then you've got a problem with either what ever you're using to soak them with or the follower patch. I've also found with the 40-65 and 40-70 ss, one button on the wiper is plenty.

[Lead pot]

Vertical stringing can be a head scratcher for all of us that shoot these BPCR. I have done a lot to satisfy my curiosity why I have a wanderer on a clean string show up. I always blamed that little Gremlin I call Henry playing games with me down range. :D
I used bullets that were cold poured wrinkled just to see how much they wander out of a group as well as hard or soft alloys have effects and wad stack changes.
I shoot trapdoors and one has a larger bore/groove at .461" groove and it shoots a .458" diameter very well at 1/20 T/L and even with 1/16. Shooting black powder when the charge goes off with black powder the undersized bullet will be groove diameter even if it's undersized with a reasonable alloy hardness.
Where the trouble starts with groups opening up is a bullet to hard with an improper wad stack sealing the gas behind the bullet causing gas cuts or to soft pushing them to hard causing stripping and this smears lead in the bore. When lead starts building up things get wild. Lead build up is a larger issue than powder fouling.
I shoot often just for fun range time at bowling pins with out using fouling control except for an occasional blow up the breach when loading starts to get tight and as long as the temperature is not to high.
Here is a 200 yard target I shot 100 rounds through while I was reforming .45-2.6 cases for my new 25# .44-2.6. The brass was just sized down from .45 to .44 and final forming. I just loaded and shot without fouling control except for just a blow up the breach. No blow tube or wiping and that hole you see just 4 or 5 wandered outside of 4". It was a cold sunny January and that is tough on the fingers wiping between shots :D I call that a 200 yard ragged group. :D
A big issue for vertical stringing is what a lot of us wont admit, and that is the anticipation of the coming recoil. It might be an unconscious thing but I have caught this my self letting a shot off when I forgot to pull the hammer back and just heard the loud click :D
I think this is the largest cause of the stringing issue and improper controlling the rifle.

309836

[Gunlaker]

Chris if you have that sort of problem with the BACO wipers, then you've got a problem with either what ever you're using to soak them with or the follower patch. I've also found with the 40-65 and 40-70 ss, one button on the wiper is plenty.

The problem with my 40 cal wipers is that they are all too small and don't seal the grooves so do a bad job keeping the bore clean. My first batch was a very early one and I'd heard a rumor that there were consistency problems with the early ones. I ordered a new st last year and they are the same. My 45 cal ones are pretty close to perfect.

I didn't post to complain about my wipers though, just to show the guy who started the thread that bore condition can definitely cause vertical stringing.

Interestingly, the first time I cleaned the turkeys with this rifle was using those very same early BACO wipers.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

When you see this stuff about wipers giving problems the best thing to do is start looking at serious match score put up by folks like Ferringer , Johnson, Venhouse, Gullo ,Taylor and others and say hmmmm

[Gunlaker]

You missed the whole point Don.

Chris.

[indian joe]

Thanks Don and Blahut. Rifle is placement is good but I can always pay more attention to shoulder contact. I weighed all my powders for consistency and cleaned brass properly. And as I said, I'm knowledgeable about the common causes of vertical stringing. Bullet fit is definitely not ideal but my experience is that bullets tend to drift or you create a trainwreck grouping rather than vertical.

I am using magnum primers, so maybe time to try my WLR primers. I know primers are a factor in precision shooting but do you think magnum vs standard primers cause that much deviation?

Understood Don on the 500gr ~1200fps. That is what I am trying to dial in. I did not chrony this time out but i think 68gr plus wad had them moving a little too fast.

first question - if you are using your chrony some - do you get consistent velocity - if no that needs sorting first - if yes then that points to operator- (hold - hows it sitting on the rest etc)
FWIW --my shooting usually/always shows vertical with any kind of blade front sight - goes away when I put a round (peephole) up front ----this is called birthday sydrome I think

[Don McDowell]

No Chris I didn't.

[Lead pot]

Inconsistent moisture from whispers or patches will raise the velocity and lower it especially if the moisture is a cutting oil. I tried the bore pigs and found this going on both on paper and the chronograph. If the squeegee dont get consistent results there is going to be a difference down range.
Controlling fouling with bored pigs or patches both work. It's just going to be what ever works best for the guy using the method.
For me I will stay with just cotton and water. I get along with that just fine.
As far as watching the match winners what they do, well I do just that to rate my performance. When I see me close behind them I feel like doing hand stands. :D :D I seen Dave under my name at the finish as well seeing him above mine with tie breakers. I regard him and Doc Lay as well as Zack and a few others very hard holders. Brent Danielson is another to pay attention to. It's a shame that he quit posting.

[dave roelle]

Is your rifle bouncing off the sticks ?

[Don McDowell]

The bore wipers what they’re wet with and how wet and how they’re followed can be about as much trial and error as load development. Much like lord every rifle will be quick to point out likes and dislikes.
Without consistent bore condition vertical will be a major problem
With the trapdoor wiping the bore between shots is a pretty tough row to hoe.
The best route will be a good blow tube routine coupled wit a very good lube and a bullet that carry’s enough of it
Guys like Gullo , Johnson, Wilkes etal have put the time in to get the whole deal figured out for their rifles

[Lead pot]

And it also helps shooting with the team that can read the conditions well.

[Don McDowell]

Even when some of those guys are shooting rifleman they have things figured out

[Lead pot]

That's what it takes.

[SteveOKo922]

Hi there, mabey we can collude on this matter with trapdoors and verticle stringing. I am currently developing loads for an 1888 RRB, 1884 carbine and 1879 Trapdoor rifle with the 405g and 500gn bullet. So far, everything spencer wolf has detailed in his book has worked ESPECIALLY the crimp and enlarged flash hole with magnum primer. Today I shot the best groups ever after following his method to a "T". However, sometimes I'm getting verticle strings, but still within 4moa He mentioned the trapdoor is a negative jump rifle so mabey we are holding the rifle incorrectly and or have a poor sight picture?

[SteveOKo922]

Let me elaborate of the negative jump I mentioned. So far. Every group I have shot from the prone supported has produced verticle strings except when I DO NOT place my hand under the rifle. Every other position produces regular groups, especially sitting and standing. Perhaps the rifle has a tendency to recoil upwards then back? I cannot find any literature on "negative or positive recoil"

[GregLaROCHE]

Did the vertical start high and go down or did it vary? If they started high and went down fouling is suspect. If they varied, it could be a difference in the loads. Do you use a drop tube and compress the powder? Taper crimp?

[Lead pot]

Torque has a lot to do with oblique stringing especially with rifles like the rolling blocks that have a lot of drop in the stock.
If you don't control the recoil you will get open groups.
This is easy to find out. Just for the heck of it put on a dry soft cotton glove like the yellow shore gloves you can pick up in farm stores or elsewhere and shoot 5 rounds. Now take that glove off and just blow in your hand a couple times to moisten them a little and shoot 5 more holding the stock wrist snug but the same and compare the targets.
If you don't control that rifle the same shot per shot you will get open groups. The higher recoiling rifle the larger the groups.

And also forcing that rifle to center outside your natural point of aim shot per shot especially using a scope will open the groups.

[RSAPD]

Did the vertical start high and go down or did it vary? If they started high and went down fouling is suspect. If they varied, it could be a difference in the loads. Do you use a drop tube and compress the powder? Taper crimp?

I tried some of the methods from Wolf's book and found the enlarged flash hole and magnum primer to be inconsistent. Larry Gibson wrote wads seem to not matter. Don McDowell has written about the magnums and bigger flash hole not being needed. From reading the forums here and elsewhere, I don't drop tube because it is a moderately compressed load and do not taper crimp. Of course, every rifle is different and what seems to work for one does not work for another. Have you found the taper crimp to be critical for you?

[SteveOKo922]

Is your rifle bouncing off the sticks ?


I tried some of the methods from Wolf's book and found the enlarged flash hole and magnum primer to be inconsistent. Larry Gibson wrote wads seem to not matter. Don McDowell has written about the magnums and bigger flash hole not being needed. From reading the forums here and elsewhere, I don't drop tube because it is a moderately compressed load and do not taper crimp. Of course, every rifle is different and what seems to work for one does not work for another. Have you found the taper crimp to be critical for you?

Strange, my rifles didn't not shoot worth a hoot untill I hit them with a 3/32 drillbit. Like night and day. When from 12" to 3" groups. The crimp on the 405g was also nessecary. No wad. Next I'm going to lube them with Japan wax and graphite like the orginals. I also managed to find an orginal box of 405g TD ammo and shot it through my 1879 rifle. 10 rounds, no wiping, all centered and a nice 4 inch group.

Spencer wolf wasn't kidding about anything in his book

[Lead pot]

Is it the 3/32" diameter hole in all cases, or is it a uniform diameter in all cases that shrunk your groups?

[SteveOKo922]

I shot a 20 round group with unaltered and 20 rounds altered brass. The 3/32 brass shot the most consistently and smallest group.

[steveu]

I shoot 65 grains of 1.5 Swiss w/500 bullets in my 1888 TD & 1885 Remington Lee. I have found that 2 damp patches on a nylon bore brush works best for me. My cases have the flash holes drilled and I use magnum primers. As for the trigger, you can search the web and find the article on how to make a spring from music wire to lighten the pull.

[Jpaver]

I’m new here and have no clue how to use this. Is this where I can ask about fouling problems with my pedersoli sharps?

[Thundermaker]

I’m new here and have no clue how to use this. Is this where I can ask about fouling problems with my pedersoli sharps?

You'll probably want to post a new thread if you want all the replies to pertain to your question.

[martinibelgian]

What does surprise me is that no one mentioned the 'single breath between shots ' for fouling management. IME, certainly not enough, so fouling issues.

[Lead pot]

I don't have the Spence Wolf book but I borrowed and read it. There is some info I don't agree with and I also tried some of what he mentioned and it added brass to the brass scrap barrel.
If you're getting a bunch of vertical it's more likely from not enough fouling control or just important is the case prep and loading the components, also controlling the rifle and position behind it.
When I get a new lot of powder I do the ladder load test using the same wads/powder/primers/bullets/alloy and just change the compression.
Target 1-3 you can see the difference what just changing the compression does by a one grain increase of powder. Those three targets were shot at the 200 yard line with no sight changing allowing for the conditions.
The white target was shot using a new mould I got from Rick at KAL and worked up the first load developments at close range before moving out to the 200 yard line. You can see the difference just with different powders. Those three targets were the final ladder load test.
Use proper fouling control, case prep and load development.
Enlarging flash holes and mag primers never did the job for me shooting black powder.
Uniform your brass so you have consistent case neck tension for a good bullet release so you dont get a bunch of odd chamber pressures will help a lot also.
Breach seating the bullet is a large help that eliminates bullet release from a fixed shell holding a close chamber pressure.

311278311274311275311279

[RSAPD]

I don't have the Spence Wolf book but I borrowed and read it. There is some info I don't agree with and I also tried some of what he mentioned and it added brass to the brass scrap barrel.
If you're getting a bunch of vertical it's more likely from not enough fouling control or just important is the case prep and loading the components, also controlling the rifle and position behind it.
When I get a new lot of powder I do the ladder load test using the same wads/powder/primers/bullets/alloy and just change the compression.
Target 1-3 you can see the difference what just changing the compression does by a one grain increase of powder. Those three targets were shot at the 200 yard line with no sight changing allowing for the conditions.
The white target was shot using a new mould I got from Rick at KAL and worked up the first load developments at close range before moving out to the 200 yard line. You can see the difference just with different powders. Those three targets were the final ladder load test.
Use proper fouling control, case prep and load development.
Enlarging flash holes and mag primers never did the job for me shooting black powder.
Uniform your brass so you have consistent case neck tension for a good bullet release so you dont get a bunch of odd chamber pressures will help a lot also.
Breach seating the bullet is a large help that eliminates bullet release from a fixed shell holding a close chamber pressure.

311278311274311275311279

Good info leadpot. My experience thus far is I too don't see any improvement with larger flash holes or mag primers. I have some questions, if you don't mind. I just thumb seat my bullets, so the bullets sit a little loose. Are you saying the neck tension should be tighter? What is your definition of proper fouling control? What do you mean by this, "Breach seating the bullet is a large help that eliminates bullet release from a fixed shell holding a close chamber pressure." I have not seen the term breach seating before. Thanks in advance!

[indian joe]

What does surprise me is that no one mentioned the 'single breath between shots ' for fouling management. IME, certainly not enough, so fouling issues.

we all built different! --"one between shots" is plenty for me - (I can fog my glasses to clean em on the hottest dryest day) shooting in a cooler, more humid place, one per is too much -----got boolits with plenty lube on board and only 28inch barrel ---well fitted HDPE wads might make a difference too? (scraper effect?)

[indian joe]

I shoot 65 grains of 1.5 Swiss w/500 bullets in my 1888 TD & 1885 Remington Lee. I have found that 2 damp patches on a nylon bore brush works best for me. My cases have the flash holes drilled and I use magnum primers. As for the trigger, you can search the web and find the article on how to make a spring from music wire to lighten the pull.

The primer thing is interesting - way back last century when Venturino and Garbe were writing their stuff there was quite some emphasis on mag primers (various writers not specially those guys) ....I still have some Federal 215's from that era - to tell the truth I wasnt shooting/building loads good enough to tell the difference but was puzzled why we needed a mag primer to light such easy flammable stuff as blackpowder . As always the scoresheet tells the story best.

[Lead pot]

Good info leadpot. My experience thus far is I too don't see any improvement with larger flash holes or mag primers. I have some questions, if you don't mind. I just thumb seat my bullets, so the bullets sit a little loose. Are you saying the neck tension should be tighter? What is your definition of proper fouling control? What do you mean by this, "Breach seating the bullet is a large help that eliminates bullet release from a fixed shell holding a close chamber pressure." I have not seen the term breach seating before. Thanks in advance!


I will try to answer your question. I hope this helps you. I'm don't have the golden fingers explaining things I do like some on here. :D

I also mostly thumb seat my bullets but I do use a slight taper crimp just tight enough to hold the bullet. I don't use a roll crimp. My bullets are snug inside a fired unsized case but they will drop out if I turn the shell bullet down with a slight shake. These bullets are PP, I don't shoot grooved bullets except for a hunting load in my 95 Marlin or the .444.
Thumb seating a loose bullet can give you a problem especially with a soft alloy if that loose bullet or even a bullet taper crimped to hold it in the case if that bullet is seated with a lot of runout. I have recovered bullets I wanted to see just exactly what a bullet seated with a lot of runout cast with a soft alloy of 1/30 T/Land several bullets had a bent ogive enough that the land cuts were almost up to the ball radius nose and on the base on one side no land cuts.
A PP bullet that is seated farther than a GG is more forgiving because even a patched bullet a thousand or two will mostly be inline pretty close to the bore.

There are several ways to control fouling. You can do it like the guy in the photo below :D or use what ever is best for you to get the bore clean between shots fired. There are several different things being used but for me shooting my unloved PP bullets I use one or two damp patches with just plain water.
Some use an oil/water or what ever concoction in the mix or some sort of bore pigs that has felt wads fixed on a bore brush and some sort of O ring at the end to wile the excess moisture. They all work.
And there is another method I use quite often when I just go to the range shooting iron or bowling pins hanging at 200 yards. This is using a proper designed bullet that will allow me to shoot dirty, no blow tube or wiping between shots fired.
The target I posted on post 13 is a 100 round target I shot with out using a blow tube or wet/dry patch it was mostly controlled like the feller on the horse :D except I blow now and then into the breach through my cupped hand when the shel gets a little tight. That rifle had a 35" long barrel and that group is a 2MOA except for 3-4 shots at 200 yards. The caliber was a .44-100 Rem straight with a 500 gr bullet so the couple shots that went outside the group could have been me getting pounded with the heavy load during the 100 shots fired :D

Breach seating is done with a tool that pushes a bullet into the throat at just in front of the loaded shell, Some will seat it deeper but I seat mine just in front of the shell with a full case of black and a wad flush seated at the case mouth. I patch the bullet one or two thousands over groove diameter also some a little over bore diameter depending the bullet profile I'm using.

The biggest issue I find with vertical is the loss of pressure behind the bullet. This happens from an improper bullet diameter and wad stack mostly but there are other factors. When the gas gets by a bullet before it expands when the powder gets lit you will see this on the paper or chronograph. It's in my opinion the biggest issue with verticals.And also recovered bullets from the snow piles will show what is going on with gas cuts.

But also powder volume and a bunch of other things going on.


311307 311308

[RSAPD]

I will try to answer your question. I hope this helps you. I'm don't have the golden fingers explaining things I do like some on here. :D

I also mostly thumb seat my bullets but I do use a slight taper crimp just tight enough to hold the bullet. I don't use a roll crimp. My bullets are snug inside a fired unsized case but they will drop out if I turn the shell bullet down with a slight shake. These bullets are PP, I don't shoot grooved bullets except for a hunting load in my 95 Marlin or the .444.
Thumb seating a loose bullet can give you a problem especially with a soft alloy if that loose bullet or even a bullet taper crimped to hold it in the case if that bullet is seated with a lot of runout. I have recovered bullets I wanted to see just exactly what a bullet seated with a lot of runout cast with a soft alloy of 1/30 T/Land several bullets had a bent ogive enough that the land cuts were almost up to the ball radius nose and on the base on one side no land cuts.
A PP bullet that is seated farther than a GG is more forgiving because even a patched bullet a thousand or two will mostly be inline pretty close to the bore.

There are several ways to control fouling. You can do it like the guy in the photo below :D or use what ever is best for you to get the bore clean between shots fired. There are several different things being used but for me shooting my unloved PP bullets I use one or two damp patches with just plain water.
Some use an oil/water or what ever concoction in the mix or some sort of bore pigs that has felt wads fixed on a bore brush and some sort of O ring at the end to wile the excess moisture. They all work.
And there is another method I use quite often when I just go to the range shooting iron or bowling pins hanging at 200 yards. This is using a proper designed bullet that will allow me to shoot dirty, no blow tube or wiping between shots fired.
The target I posted on post 13 is a 100 round target I shot with out using a blow tube or wet/dry patch it was mostly controlled like the feller on the horse :D except I blow now and then into the breach through my cupped hand when the shel gets a little tight. That rifle had a 35" long barrel and that group is a 2MOA except for 3-4 shots at 200 yards. The caliber was a .44-100 Rem straight with a 500 gr bullet so the couple shots that went outside the group could have been me getting pounded with the heavy load during the 100 shots fired :D

Breach seating is done with a tool that pushes a bullet into the throat at just in front of the loaded shell, Some will seat it deeper but I seat mine just in front of the shell with a full case of black and a wad flush seated at the case mouth. I patch the bullet one or two thousands over groove diameter also some a little over bore diameter depending the bullet profile I'm using.

The biggest issue I find with vertical is the loss of pressure behind the bullet. This happens from an improper bullet diameter and wad stack mostly but there are other factors. When the gas gets by a bullet before it expands when the powder gets lit you will see this on the paper or chronograph. It's in my opinion the biggest issue with verticals.And also recovered bullets from the snow piles will show what is going on with gas cuts.

But also powder volume and a bunch of other things going on.


311307 311308

OK, I get it. Thanks so much for the education. This is very helpful.