45 ACP Knockdown Power

[billmc2]

I picked up a Sig P-220 DAK police trade in. So far I'm liking it. After racking the slide it goes into a half cock condition. This makes the trigger pull very smooth and light.

That 45 slug, boy can it hit. I ordered an Arsenal Mold, brass, two cavity 230 gr Keith bullet. I've powder coated these. I've been working up a load for it. This afternoon, I had 50 rounds to put through the chronograph using Accurate No 5 (various charges). At round 14, I had an opportunity to experience the knockdown power of the 45 ACP. Talk about a One Shot Stop. That 230 gr 45 slug hit the chronograph, knocking it down from the table I had it sitting on, then threw it about 15 feet before it ran into the target stand. DRT.

The 45 load development has run into a snag. I also had about 70 rounds of 44 Special to run through after I finished with the 45, that now, also, needs to be put on hold.

I also learned that I have more work to do on my double action trigger pull. If it was more of a straight back pull, the bullet wouldn't have been yanked down and the chronograph would have escaped unscathed.

[Kosh75287]

I have 2 strips of 12" x 4.5" x .375" rolled steel which sit in front of my chronograph at a 30-degree angle from vertical, for exactly that reason. So far, I've been lucky, but I've seen two "Boone & Corckett Trophy-grade" chronographs that have bitten the dust when they "undertook a threatening posture toward the shooter" and left them no choice but to dispatch them.
Most chronos are now built with the expectation that, at some point, they'll intercept an errant missile. You might enquire of the manufacturer about a refurb.

[racepres]

Darnnit...Wish I would not have opened this!!! Hope My Luck don't run out!!, My Pro Chrono is very long in the tooth indeed... thinking early '90's!!
Been thru plenty...only the "rods" been shot... that wreaked Havoc...but..some duct tape to hold the rod, and back in business... sometimes I purposely remove the rods!!!!

[beemer]

Darnnit...Wish I would not have opened this!!! Hope My Luck don't run out!!, My Pro Chrono is very long in the tooth indeed... thinking early '90's!!
Been thru plenty...only the "rods" been shot... that wreaked Havoc...but..some duct tape to hold the rod, and back in business... sometimes I purposely remove the rods!!!!

I went to the hardware store and bought some 1/8 wood dowel rod, they are cheap and cause less collateral damage.

A full power #4 Enfield kinda makes a mess too !

Dave

[racepres]

I went to the hardware store and bought some 1/8 wood dowel rod, they are cheap and cause less collateral damage.

A full power #4 Enfield kinda makes a mess too ! Thanks for the suggestion...My 10-22 can be a Bugger!!!maybe I need to re-think that Ruger??

Dave
Now... Why I don't think of this Stuff??

[Kosh75287]

I went to the hardware store and bought some 1/8 wood dowel rod, they are cheap and cause less collateral damage. A full power #4 Enfield kinda makes a mess too!

Dave

Ohh, OUCH!!!

[bigboredad]

I went to the hardware store and bought some 1/8 wood dowel rod, they are cheap and cause less collateral damage.

A full power #4 Enfield kinda makes a mess too !

DaveBamboo skewers are I use
You get a bunch for not much money

Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk

[Gtek]

I know this will not stop the pain but many before and there will be others after. Take some great pictures, know that you are now in the club and figure out what your motivation is on new purchase. Spring the big $ for the Labradar or stay old school, it's just gun money!

[35 Whelen]

I feel your pain....

https://i.imgur.com/jFL2AJFl.jpg

35W

[charlie b]

Back when I used those type chronos I had some 1" thick Lexan that I put in front of the instruments. Saved one of them, but, another was not so lucky.

One of the reasons I now have a Labradar :)

[deces]

The old Pro digital chrono is kinda neat, you can connect it to an IR printer and print out your entire shooting session on the spot.

[ioon44]

I have killed PACT screens over the years and with other draw backs of the PACT system I now have a Labradar, best move I have made, no problems with light conditions.

[MrWolf]

Bamboo skewers are I use
You get a bunch for not much money

Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk

This is what I used. Can't wait to set up the Labradar, no more attacking chronos to defend myself from.

[Thumbcocker]

I feel your pain....

https://i.imgur.com/jFL2AJFl.jpg

35W

Looks like a one shot stop with placement right in the vitals.

[txbirdman]

Yup. Lab radar has eliminated my chronograph concerns

[35 Whelen]

I used to think that the closer the projectile was to the sensors, the more apt it was to be detected. What I learned was that the opposite is true. With most chrono's there's a zone from about half to three fourths of the way up from the sensors where the bullet is best detected.

35W

[Beerd]

35W,
nice looking 6 gun
..

[pworley1]

There are two kinds of shooters. Those who have shot their chronograph and those who are going to shoot their chronograph. I belong to the first group.

[Electrod47]

Been there done that. The upside. Got a new one with all the bells and whistles.

[Gtek]

See, I told you there was a club! And Kudos to those of you openly admitting the incidents. Bamboo sticks and rubber bands for me, we will see what happens after I take my box out.

[35 Whelen]

35W,
nice looking 6 gun
..

Thanks!

35W

[Kosh75287]

The OP's post, describing the "post-impact flight trajectory" of the chronograph sorta points up one of the attributes of the .45 ACP that, I believe, makes it such an effective fight-stopper. It takes a considerable amount of momentum to launch a "newly ventilated" chronograph 15 feet or more, into a target stand. Other rounds made before and after the .45 ACP have more kinetic energy, but a great many don't have its momentum, nor the broad surface over which to transmit it to a target.

I don't want to light off another endless debate about K.E. vs. Bullet weight & Bore area, or "energy dump" dynamics, but I truly believe that bullet weight, moderate velocity, and bore area are major determinants of fight-stopping capacity.
Pushed to the absolute limit of +P chamber pressure, a .38 Special can launch a 200 gr. flat point at about 800 f/s. With somewhat more ease, a .45 ACP can launch a 200 gr. LSWC at the same velocity. Both rounds have the same K.E. and momentum, but I'D trust the .45 ACP more in a fight, because it transmits both over a broader area (by 60%).

Okay, I don't want to drift this thread, but I thought it might be worth the time to point it out.

[billmc2]

While I'd love to have a Labradar the budget won't support that at this time; maybe sometime in the future. I ordered a replacement today, same model that I had. Its supposed to be delivered on Feb 6. I couldn't find an for one made out of kevlar; so there's always the possibility of chapter 2.

[billmc2]

I don't want to light off another endless debate about K.E. vs. Bullet weight & Bore area, or "energy dump" dynamics, but I truly believe that bullet weight, moderate velocity, and bore area are major determinants of fight-stopping capacity.
Pushed to the absolute limit of +P chamber pressure, a .38 Special can launch a 200 gr. flat point at about 800 f/s. With somewhat more ease, a .45 ACP can launch a 200 gr. LSWC at the same velocity. Both rounds have the same K.E. and momentum, but I'D trust the .45 ACP more in a fight, because it transmits both over a broader area (by 60%).

Okay, I don't want to drift this thread, but I thought it might be worth the time to point it out.

I was trying to play on the "caliber wars" when I came up with the title of the thread, but that was an attempt to get you guys to read it; not really having any thing to do with the different calibers.

But; maybe you guys would like to offer me your opinions on a decision I'm trying to make. There was a time when 45 ACP was a daily carry for me. One day I was at a gun show, had been thinking about picking up a DA/SA 9mm when my hand discovered the CZ PCR (its 9mm). It was love at first touch and I've been carrying it ever since (about 8 years now). When I first got it, folks warned me about possible problems racking the slide do to the reduced amount of real estate. I checked, didn't have a problem, so I began carrying it. Several months ago I discovered I couldn't rack the slide if the hammer was down in DA mode. (I have a preference for hammer fired guns and can only think of one model that I own which has a striker.) Last week was my birthday (the site sent a nice birthday message), I'll be eligible for medicare next year. I'm trying to figure out what I need to do so I can operate the gun I carry, hopefully not spending a bunch of money to do it. (There's also the old eye problem.)

So I guess this is more of a which gun rather than a which caliber question. One solution I've thought about is to put a red dot on the CZ. That would involve a mounting adapter (it replaces the rear sight) and the optic itself. The other options are the Beretta 92FS, a Bersa Ultra Compact 45, or the above mentioned P-220. I control the 9mm recoil better than I do the 45, but that might just be a training issue. The CZ mags hold 14 while the Beretta's hold 18. The Sig holds 8 but 10 are available and the Bersa holds 8. I don't have any issue racking the Beretta or Sig.

I've been playing with various grips on the Beretta and haven't yet found the "right" one (I think I'm getting close though). The CZ is a perfect fit. The Sig fits pretty well also, seems to point naturally and comes on target easily. Its been many years since I've put my hands on the Bersa and haven't started the process with that one.

I have a 9mm mold but haven't started casting for it yet. If I'm understanding the pressure issue correctly, 45 ACP should be easier to deal with.

So, whatdaya think and why?

[44MAG#1]

Pettyplace and his VIRGEL app is where you need to go. It will provide everything you need to know on calibers, wounding mass and penetration. It is the last word on self defense cartridges and the bullets thereof..

[dogdoc]

There are two kinds of shooters. Those who have shot their chronograph and those who are going to shoot their chronograph. I belong to the first group.

Nope
Lab radar!! Problem solved!

[charlie b]

...So, whatdaya think and why?

I understand about money and the Labradar. I had to 'save up' for a bit before I got it but it was really worth it to me.

One of the problems I always had with the CZ type is the lack of surface area to pull the slide.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/tips-for-dealing-with-the-cz-slide/

And a solution for competition.

https://cajungunworks.com/product/cgw-slide-racker-sight/

At one time there were smaller versions of this for the 1911. My HK vp9 has small vertical 'bumps' that can be installed to help with the slide.

PS it is harder to control the .45 than the 9mm, especially in a small pistol. I also understand the sight issue. I use progressive lenses in my glasses and have had to 'adjust' my head 'tilt' to get the correct wight picture. Looks funny but works. Red dots are nice but have a learning curve. Don't expect them to be 'easy' right out of the box. Once you learn to use them it is hard to go back :)

[racepres]

I understand about money and the Labradar. I had to 'save up' for a bit before I got it but it was really worth it to me.

One of the problems I always had with the CZ type is the lack of surface area to pull the slide.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/tips-for-dealing-with-the-cz-slide/

And a solution for competition.

https://cajungunworks.com/product/cgw-slide-racker-sight/

At one time there were smaller versions of this for the 1911. My HK vp9 has small vertical 'bumps' that can be installed to help with the slide.

PS it is harder to control the .45 than the 9mm, especially in a small pistol. I also understand the sight issue. I use progressive lenses in my glasses and have had to 'adjust' my head 'tilt' to get the correct wight picture. Looks funny but works. Red dots are nice but have a learning curve. Don't expect them to be 'easy' right out of the box. Once you learn to use them it is hard to go back :)
My Bifoculars cause me to need to "cock my head" as well... but, whatever Works!!!

[billmc2]

I understand about money and the Labradar. I had to 'save up' for a bit before I got it but it was really worth it to me.

One of the problems I always had with the CZ type is the lack of surface area to pull the slide.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/tips-for-dealing-with-the-cz-slide/

And a solution for competition.

https://cajungunworks.com/product/cgw-slide-racker-sight/

At one time there were smaller versions of this for the 1911. My HK vp9 has small vertical 'bumps' that can be installed to help with the slide.

PS it is harder to control the .45 than the 9mm, especially in a small pistol. I also understand the sight issue. I use progressive lenses in my glasses and have had to 'adjust' my head 'tilt' to get the correct wight picture. Looks funny but works. Red dots are nice but have a learning curve. Don't expect them to be 'easy' right out of the box. Once you learn to use them it is hard to go back :)

Thanks, I'll look into that piece from Cajun. I also have the progressives and my head tilts back so I can look out the bottom. As for the Labradar, maybe in a year or two but not now.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I'll tempt fate. Have not shot one so far but did have one wear out on me. New one has blue tooth which I could give two about.

[imashooter2]

There are two kinds of shooters. Those who have shot their chronograph and those who are going to shoot their chronograph. I belong to the first group.

3 types. Those who have, those who will, and those that take great care when they have several hundred dollars in front of their gun.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Yep. Kinda makes you "think" about the soldiers whoa have to advance under covering fire.

[Bill*B]

Yes, we do feel your pain. I put one of mine to rest with a .450/400, several years ago. I'm more careful now.

[Rodfac]

35W: What I learned was that the opposite is true. With most chrono's there's a zone from about half to three fourths of the way up from the sensors where the bullet is best detected. Never suspected that...and I've been chrono'ing for 20+ years now. Full disclosure: two PACT screens and one stand...using a Pro now. Best regards, Rod

[upr45]

mine got blasted by a 325gr from a 480. Dead in tracks. Fortunately a new sensing unit was not that much $. I did put 1/8 inch wood dowels in and had them hit once with no damage to sense unit.