Harder Cast versus Hard Cast

[44MAG#1]

Since we know that lead runs somewhere around 5 BHN and 6 BHN is harder than 5 BHN and we know 7 BHN is harder than 5 and 6 BHN and 8 BHN is harder than 5, 6, and 7 BHN and 9 BHN is harder than 5, 6, 7, and 8 BHN and 10 BHN is harder than 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 BHN and 11 BHN is harder than 5-10 BHN and 15 BHN is harder than 5-14 BHN then what is hard cast since we can buy cast bullets and make our own heat treated cast bullets that exceed Linotype metal (I have measured some I did that exceeded Linotype by a few points) what is hard cast since there is so many points of BHN's that can be obtained?
Keeping in mind that "hard" is a relative term are we saying use harder bullets or "hard" bullets whatever they may be, since we have choices if we cast our own?
What range does each have if we have soft cast , medium hard cast and hard cast?
Or do we have soft, harder soft, medium, harder medium, hard, harder hard and super hard and harder super hard?
Where does each fall?

[243winxb]

Standard used by some bullet companies.


Rotometals-- Hardball Bullet Casting Alloy consists of 2% tin, 6% antimony and 92% lead. This modern version of the old Lyman #2 is an excellent all-around alloy for most handgun bullets and many higher velocity rifle cartridges. The Brinell Hardness of Hardball Alloy is about 16.

[44MAG#1]

Standard used by some bullet companies.

Does that mean that about 16 BHN is hard cast since it is harder than softer BHN bullets or is it medium hard or softer or harder medium based on a scale from 5 to the hardest that can be obtained in a lead alloy bullet which can be above 20-22 BHN?

[ascast]

goopd question I use < 10 soft, 10-15 med hard, 15> hard and over 20 real hard. I have to chuckle a bit when I cast for sale described as :pure alloy 7-15 BHN or some similar description. Pure alloy implies consistent and should be
+/- one point BHN I think.

[Thumbcocker]

Hard cast is the "match grade" of boolit metal. That should clear it up.

[charlie b]

LOL.

I use Lyman #2 for my bullets. When I bought commercial 'hard cast' they were above that, based on informal observation. When loose in a box and shaken a bit the 'hard cast' showed almost no change. OTOH, my Lyman #2 bullets showed dings where other bullets had hit each other.

[44MAG#1]

Hard cast is the "match grade" of boolit metal. That should clear it up.

But how hard is the "hard" in match grade? Could the hardness vary and still give "match grade" bullets?

[David2011]

My match grade boolits test at about 11 BHN.

[megasupermagnum]

But how hard is the "hard" in match grade? Could the hardness vary and still give "match grade" bullets?

You missed the point. The "match grade" title is slapped on even garbage ammo.

[Larry Gibson]

Any cast bullets of 15 BHN or higher are considered "hard cast". That is a term most commercial casters use and the "standard" they apparently set.

[MT Gianni]

Plumbers lead is also called pure lead though it tests out closer to 7 BHN and pure supposedly is 5 bhn. I like Elmers definition of Hard being 1 pt tin in 12 pts lead instead of his regular 1 in 16 or 20. The only reason to use the term "Hard or Hard Cast" is when trying to communicate with those individuals who think the authors and editors of gun magazines have are knowledge and are the only dispersion fonts out there.
They deserve the same invitation Philip gave Nathanael in the Bible. "Come and See". If they cannot visit a range and see what a good alloy can do it's their loss.

[44MAG#1]

Plumbers lead is also called pure lead though it tests out closer to 7 BHN and pure supposedly is 5 bhn. I like Elmers definition of Hard being 1 pt tin in 12 pts lead instead of his regular 1 in 16 or 20. The only reason to use the term "Hard or Hard Cast" is when trying to communicate with those individuals who think the authors and editors of gun magazines have are knowledge and are the only dispersion fonts out there.
They deserve the same invitation Philip gave Nathanael in the Bible. "Come and See". If they cannot visit a range and see what a good alloy can do it's their loss.
But what is hard or hard cast by the BHN since the word hard is a relative term.

[Milky Duck]

the testing by lead pencil seems like a good way to go....I reloaded some "harder cast" boolits given to me,for a mate to use in his .44magnum...pushed along with 6grns of ap50 shotgun powder..mild load..he shot bailed boar at close range,boar was about 110lbs,in front of head,boolit recovered from back of neck,top of shoulder,SLIGHT deformation of very tip (keith 240grn) but I could just about have poked it back in another case for round 2.....

[DougGuy]

But what is hard or hard cast by the BHN since the word hard is a relative term.



Just what Larry said. "Hard" is 15-16 BHN. This means you can't scratch it with a thumbnail, it likely will not obturate with any load less than +P and will not mushroom in a deer. 18-22 and up BHN are usually, and I say this with a guess, normally reserved for extreme pressure cartridges. Casull, Linebaugh, Bowen, etc. Very large bears, buffalo, even large boar would be a good call for a hard boolit where penetration is critical.

Typically a softer alloy will work much better in a handgun at 12 or less BHN. 44m and 45Colt can get great accuracy, little or no leading, excellent performance on thin skinned game, with an alloy you can scratch with a thumbnail, we know it as 50/50+2% (even though that doesn't add up to 100%).

That is MY understanding of the three grades of hardness and how they apply to handgun loads. YMMV..

For what it's worth, a lot of the commercially cast boolits are very hard, 22BHN is pretty common for commercial cast, some casters will drop boolits in softer alloy if you ask them.

I am not a fan of commercial cast because they are too hard, and they use that hard as a new crayon lube that basically does nothing but lead the daylights out of a barrel even when throat diameters are correct.

[44MAG#1]

Just what Larry said. "Hard" is 15-16 BHN. This means you can't scratch it with a thumbnail, it likely will not obturate with any load less than +P and will not mushroom in a deer. 18-22 and up BHN are usually, and I say this with a guess, normally reserved for extreme pressure cartridges. Casull, Linebaugh, Bowen, etc. Very large bears, buffalo, even large boar would be a good call for a hard boolit where penetration is critical.

Typically a softer alloy will work much better in a handgun at 12 or less BHN. 44m and 45Colt can get great accuracy, little or no leading, excellent performance on thin skinned game, with an alloy you can scratch with a thumbnail, we know it as 50/50+2% (even though that doesn't add up to 100%).

That is MY understanding of the three grades of hardness and how they apply to handgun loads. YMMV..

I was more leaning to the meaning of hard and it relativity to where hard is from 5 to let's say 25 BHN. Different HARDNESS of bullets can be made to work well depending on how much one wants to experiment.
But where does HARD fall on the BHN scale from 5 BHN to 25 BHN?
If 15 BHN is hard what is 22 BHN?
If 6 BHN is soft what is 10 BHN? It is HARD compared to 6 BHN but not as HARD as 15BHN. Etc, Etc and Etc..

[justindad]

My mom used to call me hard headed. Not sure what BHN that is.

[fredj338]

I'll go with 15-16 as hard cast, Lyman #2. Over that, still hard cast just harder, so maybe super hard cast? I used to shoot lino for everything because I had a bunch. Lino is 22bhn. Most of us are shooting much softer alloys than even #2.

[GregLaROCHE]

I use the finger nail test. If my fingernail will make a mark, it’s soft. If it won’t it’s hard.

[44MAG#1]

I use the finger nail test. If my fingernail will make a mark, it’s soft. If it won’t it’s hard.

So if the bullet can be scratched it is "soft" and if it can't it is "hard"?
"Soft" or "hard" relative to what? Since there is span of BHN's where does "soft" fall and where does "hard"fall?

[TurnipEaterDown]

What's the purpose of the question: i.e. what will be done with the information?

Some questions & answers are subjective, some are objective.
No offense, but this seems mixed at best (re: subjective & objective), and w/o understanding the purpose of the question, very hard to give targeted answer.

i.e. IF you need a precise Scale to soft/firm/hard/really hard, what do you intend to use it for?
Many conversations on here about how BHN doesn't really relate to combustion pressure capability, so perhaps if you could define the use intended, an answer could be provided.

[44MAG#1]

What's the purpose of the question: i.e. what will be done with the information?

What is done with the info is up to the individual whether it is of value or not based on subjectivity or objectivity of the person. It may be entirely irrelevant to many.
Some questions & answers are subjective, some are objective.
No offense, but this seems mixed at best (re: subjective & objective), and w/o understanding the purpose of the question, very hard to give targeted answer.

If one finds it hard to give an answer then don't.
It depends on how accurate one wants to be with the perception on has of soft and hard.
i.e. IF you need a precise Scale to soft/firm/hard/really hard, what do you intend to use it for?
I may not use it for anything. I shoot now mainly 15 BHN bullets which to me falls in medium not hard as some people call 15 BHN.
Many conversations on here about how BHN doesn't really relate to combustion pressure capability, so perhaps if you could define the use intended, an answer could be provided.
I am not talking about combustion pressure but BHN's.How one juggles their load to best use the bullets they have and their hardness is up to them.

[Bigslug]

"When discussing terms like acceleration, engineers do not use words like 'FAST'. They're only saying 'You'll be the fastest man in the history of spaceflight' to get me to go along. . .WITH THIS LUNACY".- Matt Damon, The Martian

"Hard cast" is how mass-marketers talk to the non-casting plebes. The myth that all leading comes from a too-soft bullet is quite persistent - - which is interesting considering the cost of antimony and tin; you'd think they'd be hyping the softest stuff they can get away with.

[TurnipEaterDown]

I am not talking about combustion pressure but BHN's.How one juggles their load to best use the bullets they have and their hardness is up to them.

You miss my point, and seem to have taken offense where none was intended.

Your question is open ended (not bound), nor stated in a manner that directs an answer.

What do you intend to use a quantification of "hard" for?
Answer that, and perhaps someone can provide an answer which is useful.

My point on pressure was to draw attention to the fact that some questions do not have an answer as sought because there is no correlation between the question and the intended use of the information.

So, if you just want an answer that another person has, w/o any intended use, how about: The transition from pretty hard to hard is precisely 14.357629 BHN. Not very useful is it? Subjective answer (with sarcasm) masquerading as objective precision...

[Springfield]

There is no standard. Simple. Like "good accuracy", it varies from person to person, to whatever is "Hard" to them.

[44MAG#1]

You miss my point, and seem to have taken offense where none was intended.
No offense was taken. Where did you get that offense was taken?

Your question is open ended (not bound), nor stated in a manner that directs an answer.
Isn't most questions open ended? I was asking since there is a variety of hardnesses where does each end and the other hardness take over? 5 to 22 BHN's is quite a swath to state one is hard and the other is soft. What range is soft what range is medium and what range is hard. Then we could add medium soft and medium hard.

What do you intend to use a quantification of "hard" for?
Answer that, and perhaps someone can provide an answer which is useful.

I thought that was what I asked. Of course I am 70 and may be mistaken. Where does SOFT fall where does MEDIUM fall and where does HARD fall on a scale from 5 to 22 BHN? Since 15 is considered hard by some 22 must be a real good golly gosh bullet.
My point on pressure was to draw attention to the fact that some questions do not have an answer as sought because there is no correlation between the question and the intended use of the information.

So, if you just want an answer that another person has, w/o any intended use, how about: The transition from pretty hard to hard is precisely 14.357629 BHN. Not very useful is it? Subjective answer (with sarcasm) masquerading as objective precision...
Your sarcastic sarcasm is duly noted and is a joy to experience. Thank you.

[Larry Gibson]

I was more leaning to the meaning of hard and it relativity to where hard is from 5 to let's say 25 BHN. Different HARDNESS of bullets can be made to work well depending on how much one wants to experiment.
But where does HARD fall on the BHN scale from 5 BHN to 25 BHN?
If 15 BHN is hard what is 22 BHN?
If 6 BHN is soft what is 10 BHN? It is HARD compared to 6 BHN but not as HARD as 15BHN. Etc, Etc and Etc..

Not being sarcastic but...

"If 15 BHN is hard what is 22 BHN?" Answer is simply "harder".

"If 6 BHN is soft what is 10 BHN? It is HARD compared to 6 BHN but not as HARD as 15BHN. Etc, Etc and Etc." Again, the answer is simply "softer".

I think you're wanting a definative answer to a basically open ended question. As with many things we do in cast bulleting the answer isn't hard fast. An example is, "Linotype alloy is harder than Lyman #2 alloy". Or, "40-1 alloy is softer than COWW alloy". Nothing really definitive in either, just a descrptive statement of fact. As previously stated, a BHN of 15 has pretty much been established [though not written in stone] as where "hard" begins with BHNs above being "harder" because they are.

[44MAG#1]

Let's add this. On Rimrock bullet site we will see if we bring it up.
That they have "Standard Hard Cast Bullets.
Also, "Top Shelf Hard Cast Bullets".
The "standard" hard cast is 15 BHN.
The "Top Shelf" hard cast is 22 BHN.
In this case does "Standard" denote quality, hardness or what? Is the "Standard" wording mean 15 is hard and "Top Shelf" is hard at 22?
Or does "Standard" mean lower quality than "Top Shelf" or are both the same quality but one is softer than the other or that one is lower quality than the other?
15 BHN to 22 BHN is 7 points difference. Is 7 points insignificant or does it mean something worth while?
If it is not worthwhile why not make all their bullets 15 BHN?

[jgstrug]

Purpose of the projectile is almost as important as accuracy. I agree that 15 seems to be where most people think hard starts.I shoot lever action silhouette rifle cartridge with a 38-55 and a Rim Rock commercial cast thought to be rated at 15 but not tested by me. Accuracy is very good and no leading problems, but the only problem that has been revealed is that a hit on the 200yrd ram makes the lead turn into dust, and some of the energy needed to move the steel from its perch is lost by being dispersed into all the fragments.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[Larry Gibson]

Let's add this. On Rimrock bullet site we will see if we bring it up.
That they have "Standard Hard Cast Bullets.
Also, "Top Shelf Hard Cast Bullets".
The "standard" hard cast is 15 BHN.
The "Top Shelf" hard cast is 22 BHN.
In this case does "Standard" denote quality, hardness or what? Is the "Standard" wording mean 15 is hard and "Top Shelf" is hard at 22?
Or does "Standard" mean lower quality than "Top Shelf" or are both the same quality but one is softer than the other or that one is lower quality than the other?
15 BHN to 22 BHN is 7 points difference. Is 7 points insignificant or does it mean something worth while?
If it is not worthwhile why not make all their bullets 15 BHN?

The difference is they quantify the difference between their meaning of "standard" and "top shelf" by giving the BHN for both. The terms "soft(er)" and "hard(er)" in and of themselves does leaves a lot to be desired in terms of BHN meaning. Also, neither term addresses the malleability of the alloy.

Still in common usage "hard" refers to a BHN at 15 or above with cast bullets. Been that way since I can remember.

[44MAG#1]

"Hard" in common usage is 15 BHN.
So bullets that are 22 BHN be uncommon.
I get it now.
Common usage can actually divert meanings. That makes sense.

[fredj338]

So if the bullet can be scratched it is "soft" and if it can't it is "hard"?
"Soft" or "hard" relative to what? Since there is span of BHN's where does "soft" fall and where does "hard"fall?

Really, I think you are over thinking the whole thing.

[44MAG#1]

Really, I think you are over thinking the whole thing.
Over thinking something is bad? Or does it depend on what one is thinking about?
While it may make my brain hurt to overthink something I haven't gotten into trouble like I have under thinking something.

[charlie b]

This is just a way to use up some time on the forum :)

Just like the other thread on Smelt vs Melt :)

As well as the signature block above :)

[44MAG#1]

This is just a way to use up some time on the forum :)

Just like the other thread on Smelt vs Melt :)

As well as the signature block above :)

What does the signature block above have to do with BHN?

[Willie T]

My first automobile was a ‘68 dodge power wagon. When the gauge showed 1/4 tank it was empty. If you based your belief on what the gauge read, you better put some walking shoes behind the seat. Whether you measure “pure” lead at 5 or 7 has little bearing on what you have. Whether it suits your purpose, or if alloying it produces results better suited to your needs is where the rubber hits the road.
Willie

[high standard 40]

The commercial cast bullet sellers made up the term "hard cast" to cater to people who believe that a soft lead bullet will leave massive amounts of lead deposited in your favorite shooting iron, but "hard lead" cures this problem. Knowledgeable shooters know better. Don't allow yourself to be caught up in meaningless jargon. "Hard Cast" has no real value in the discussion of the measure of Brinell hardness. My two cents.

[Soundguy]

I look at pressure and fps when choosing bhn. Non magnum handgun rounds that aren't screamers get about 10. 12 and a gas check for slow magnums.. 14 for fast magnums. I use #2 or 15/16 as starting for most rifle..unless it is slow and low like 45-70. Go up from there plus a gas check as speed/pressure tops out.
Size is just as important as hardness by the way.

[TurnipEaterDown]

This is just a way to use up some time on the forum :)

Just like the other thread on Smelt vs Melt :)

As well as the signature block above :)


And here I sat thinking all along "top shelf" meant the expensive Liquor that did the same job as $8 Popov... :)

[405grain]

The signature block has nothing to do with the measurement of Brinell hardness. The two are unrelated. The signature block is on it's own problematic.

Years ago I was riding on the subway on my way home from work. In this situation you are presented with a cross section of humanity along it's entire spectrum. On this particular day there was a gentleman in a beige business suit that was becoming more and more agitated and animated. The conversation that he was having which was causing his distress was occurring entirely inside his own mind. Eventually, with arms flailing, he burst into a loud declarative statement: "Nobody knows what time is!" I found this peculiar because, in 1915 Albert Einstein had published his General Theory of Relativity, and for over a hundred years we have all known, or at least had at our disposal, the information of exactly what time is, and what causes it to occur. This gentleman assumed that because he did not know something, in his mind that meant that no one could know it. If something is unknown to you, that does not mean that all others are mystified by it.

As for the rest of the signature block above, it's suggestion that mass cannot be measured is both pedantic and incorrect. The value of mass is used in several scientific calculations, in example the formula for kinetic energy ; K=M*V(squared), or also in the more well known formula E=MC(squared). The signature block further errors on the assumption that the metric system is not based on some system of a standard. The entire metric system which includes volume, distance, and weight is based on water. In example: one cubic centimeter of water weighs one gram. This gives you basis for the volume, weight, and distance of anything measured by that system. The metric system is not afforded relevance by virtue of a convergence to the imperial system.

If you are confused and unable to process something , that does not mean that everyone else is confused by it.

[44MAG#1]

Why are two people fixated on the signature block. This isn't about mass other than a bullet is mass. That mass can be anywhere from 5 to 22 BHN. The mass of the bullet will depend on it's composition.
But again this isn't a treatsie on mass.

[charlie b]

Just three things that show an argument just for the sake of arguing for the most part. Really none of this matters as long as the writer's message is getting across.

[44MAG#1]

Just three things that show an argument just for the sake of arguing for the most part. Really none of this matters as long as the writer's message is getting across.

On my first post I asked a question. If anyone wanted to answer fine if they didn't fine.
I have not been unkind to anyone during this. I have not forced anyone to post.
Thanks to the ones who have posted and I appreciated the time they have taken.

[KYCaster]

How hard is hard?

How high is up?

How low is down?

How long is far?

"A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside and enigma." Churchill

"Don't take the world serious." Berra

Jerry

[GregLaROCHE]

So if the bullet can be scratched it is "soft" and if it can't it is "hard"?
"Soft" or "hard" relative to what? Since there is span of BHN's where does "soft" fall and where does "hard"fall?

For my uses the finger nail test is all I need. If I can make an impression with my fingernail, I use it in my muzzle loaders. Otherwise, I use it for more modern rifles, mostly 45/70 these days. That’s the only thing I need to know for my uses. I’m sure others who are looking to push the limits want precision, but I don’t need it.

[Bigslug]

Maybe we should ask Pfizer what hardness scale they used. . .or maybe we shouldn't. . .

15BHN would seem a reasonable entry into the arena of "hard" if for no other reason than that's Lyman #2, and an accepted standard for " Now we're playing with bottlenecked rifle cartridges and ~2000 fps launch speeds".

[BJung]

All of my lead comes from range scrap. Soft to me includes pellet lead, .22lr lead, and JHP core lead. I cast .38WC, .45 SWC bullets, and HP handgun bullets with them. Then there is a mixture of loose lead chunks from JHP and commercial hard cast bullets I call medium. They are for 45-230RN to more hardcase bullets with a higher bhn that I cast 9mm and 40cal TC bullets. I consider Lyman #2 and bhn up as hardcast.

[Soundguy]

This is another discussion where fryxel's book is handy..they shown a scale of hardness soft and up and what cartridges are appropriate. More of a long grey line instead of a black one with a division in the middle somewhere.

[farmbif]

I'm no expert but imagine that when you get into casting to sell boxes to others if the alloy is too soft there would be potential problems with deformation and denting. thus to provide many boxes of bullets to retailers you would want to have a hard cast product.
I always thought that "hard cast" was just marketing jargon like "discount tires" but if there is an informal standard of 15bnh, thats good to know.

[lolbell]

Well, this thread was interesting. If we have to go to the trouble of giving each bhn value a “hard value” name or location between soft and hard why don’t we just stick with the bhn#’s. 5bhn is soft and it gets a little harder as the # increases. Seems mighty simple to me.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The problem with assigning names/terms to a boolit alloy's hardness is, that it doesn't tell us the whole story. One alloy that measures 16 may be tougher than another...and that first alloy may react different in the chamber (under pressure) than the second one, if it is a different composition. So you can't really judge an alloy's shoot-ability by it's BHN number or a term like Hardcast that has been assigned to a alloy's hardness.

I will add, that talking about hardness in terms of defining an alloy by it's BHN number does a great deal to confuse those new to the hobby.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I'm no expert but imagine that when you get into casting to sell boxes to others if the alloy is too soft there would be potential problems with deformation and denting. thus to provide many boxes of bullets to retailers you would want to have a hard cast product.
I always thought that "hard cast" was just marketing jargon like "discount tires" but if there is an informal standard of 15bnh, thats good to know.

Another major reason why large commercial casters make the product they do, is because the vast majority of reloaders buying from these large commercial casters are using reloading dies that are designed around using Jacketed bullets, So the product must be more like a Jacketed bullet, than what is likely to work best in the typical firearm that it's made for.

Long before I was a caster and knew nothing about cast boolits, I was loading thousands of 9mm ammo using commercial cast .356 bullets made from 92/6/2 and lubed with a paraffin based lube, they worked fine for competition, so I was happy with the price savings, but sure I always had some Lead fouling to clean up after a match.

[44MAG#1]

The problem with assigning names/terms to a boolit alloy's hardness is, that it doesn't tell us the whole story. One alloy that measures 16 may be tougher than another...and that first alloy may react different in the chamber (under pressure) than the second one, if it is a different composition. So you can't really judge an alloy's shoot-ability by it's BHN number or a term like Hardcast that has been assigned to a alloy's hardness.
As far as I know I never mentioned shootability whatever shootability is. If one is talking about accuracy that is dependent on the weakest link in that chain of accuracy and that is the shooter which was never mentioned


I will add, that talking about hardness in terms of defining an alloy by it's BHN number does a great deal to confuse those new to the hobby.
My intention was to DEFINE the hardness slang some use. As an example if 15 BHN is hard what is 22 BHN? The word hard is a loose term.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

As far as I know I never mentioned shootability whatever shootability is. If one is talking about accuracy that is dependent on the weakest link in that chain of accuracy and that is the shooter which was never mentioned
If you assemble a load that will create more pressure in the chamber than the alloy can stand, it likely has poor shoot-ability. I brought that up, as the reason most would use BHN numbers or terms like Hardcast as a definition of what will work or not work in a specific load...and as I said, it doesn't tell the whole story...so those terms are useless.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

My intention was to DEFINE the hardness slang some use. As an example if 15 BHN is hard what is 22 BHN? The word hard is a loose term.

Well then, I would have been better off just saying that Using slang terms like Hardcast or using BHN numbers to describe a specific alloy like 92-6-2 is foolish and should be avoided, so as to not confuse those who are new to the hobby.

[TurnipEaterDown]

My intention was to DEFINE the hardness slang some use. As an example if 15 BHN is hard what is 22 BHN? The word hard is a loose term.

Honest response: you can not define slang in precise terms, as slang is a body of loosely defined words/phrases with no common/accepted meaning/definition which is standard within a language and variance of regional dialect.
If you are searching for precise definition of marketing terms, also good luck with that. No sarcasm: for an example of that, go look at paint color names for cars, homes, wherever. The same thing will go by a multitude of names depending on the target audience.

Slang:
slang
slăng
noun

A kind of language occurring chiefly in casual and playful speech, made up typically of coinages and figures of speech that are deliberately used in place of standard terms for added raciness, humor, irreverence, or other effect.
Language peculiar to a group; argot or jargon.
The cant words or jargon used by thieves, peddlers, beggars, and the vagabond classes generally; cant.

an informal nonstandard vocabulary composed typically of coinages, arbitrarily changed words, and extravagant, forced, or facetious figures of speech

I think you are on a search to define the tree species which comprises the surface layer of composite laminate flooring... (That's an analogy.)

[44MAG#1]

If you assemble a load that will create more pressure in the chamber than the alloy can stand, it likely has poor shoot-ability. I brought that up, as the reason most would use BHN numbers or terms like Hardcast as a definition of what will work or not work in a specific load...and as I said, it doesn't tell the whole story...so those terms are useless.
That may be true .
That is the responsibility of the shooter to determine the "hardcast" bullet they need. Still if "Hard" is considered 15 BHN than what is 22 BHN? You are wanting to get into reloading/loading idiosyncrasies that wasn't my question originally posted

[44MAG#1]

Well then, I would have been better off just saying that Using slang terms like Hardcast or using BHN numbers to describe a specific alloy like 92-6-2 is foolish and should be avoided, so as to not confuse those who are new to the hobby.

BHN represents a number that is legitimate. It is done through a test. I would not call BHN slang.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

44,
You seem to have a real good handle on this Slang thing. You should just take the lead and assign your preferred slang names. I do have one suggestion, as you wouldn't have to stick with the slang that has been previously been misused, like "Hardcast", "harder hardcast", "hardest Hardcast" and so on, you could avoid the past tense-present tense confusion by just assigning colors? Maybe just borrow the Resistor color code chart, less thinking that way.
https://eepower.com/resistor-guide/resistor-standards-and-codes/resistor-color-code/#
Then all the booliteers that like to Powder Coat their boolits, could color code their boolits to match the BHN of the alloy they used. That just might make it more legitimate.

[BJung]

If 15 BHN is hard. 22 BHN is very hard. Then, very very hard.

[44MAG#1]

44,
You seem to have a real good handle on this Slang thing. You should just take the lead and assign your preferred slang names. I do have one suggestion, as you wouldn't have to stick with the slang that has been previously been misused, like "Hardcast", "harder hardcast", "hardest Hardcast" and so on, you could avoid the past tense-present tense confusion by just assigning colors? Maybe just borrow the Resistor color code chart, less thinking that way.
https://eepower.com/resistor-guide/resistor-standards-and-codes/resistor-color-code/#
Then all the booliteers that like to Powder Coat their boolits, could color code their boolits to match the BHN of the alloy they used. That just might make it more legitimate.

Colors wouldn't work. That would be like saying "I drive a blue truck". That wouldn't tell the brand, model or year

Is it a full size pick up, a compact pick up a dump truck or a tractor trailer. Is it a 4 wheel drive, is it a two wheel drive? Our neighbor drives a full size pick up yo work where he drives a dump truck. They vary at times as to color.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Yeah, it would be much better if I said, "I drive a harder hardcast truck" LOL
:bigsmyl2:

[44MAG#1]

Yeah, it would be much better if I said, "I drive a harder hardcast truck" LOL
:bigsmyl2:

Just like saying he drives a car. What kind of car?
What color is the car? What year, brand What if the cops would call in to dispatch and say "I am in pursuit of an armed subject driving a car. He just committed mayhem on a person and I need back up". The dispatcher would want as much info as possible not just that the pursued was driving a car. And that he was chasing the Bad Guy down a road. Many drive cars. It could be one of us pulled over and have the Lone Ranger throwdown put on us just because we were driving A CAR down A ROAD.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

...and the mayhem was done via a harder hardcast boolit.
:bigsmyl2:

[44MAG#1]

...and the mayhem was done via a harder hardcast boolit.
:bigsmyl2:
Now you are catching on. I had high hopes for you.
I had a friend that went by the name Bill. Knew him for years. Thought his name was short or a nickname for William. Wrong, William wasn't his first, middle or last. I assumed. I was wrong. Just like 15 BHN is hard compared to lower BHN's but not AS HARD as higher BHN's. So "HARD" can be hard but not as "hard" as higher numbers so the lower numbers are relatively harder. Or they could be termed relatively softer since they are softer than "HARDER" or "HIGHER" BHN's numbers

[lolbell]

The problem with assigning names/terms to a boolit alloy's hardness is, that it doesn't tell us the whole story. One alloy that measures 16 may be tougher than another...and that first alloy may react different in the chamber (under pressure) than the second one, if it is a different composition. So you can't really judge an alloy's shoot-ability by it's BHN number or a term like Hardcast that has been assigned to a alloy's hardness.

I will add, that talking about hardness in terms of defining an alloy by it's BHN number does a great deal to confuse those new to the hobby.

This is my point exactly. If we got to locate an alloy on a chart why not use the bhn number that’s been around for years. That would tell you about as much as softest, softer, soft, sorta hard, harder, hard, hardest, and hardester. A caster needs to mix an alloy that works best for his own application and then call it whatever he wants to. JMHO

What works fine for me is clip on wheel weights + %4 tin. I have no idea where that falls on the charts but it works well in all my revolvers and a 35REM

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Now you are catching on. I had high hopes for you.

>>SNIP<<

So "HARD" can be hard but not as "hard" as higher numbers so the lower numbers are relatively harder. Or they could be termed relatively softer since they are softer than "HARDER" or "HIGHER" BHN's numbers

I still say colors are the way to go.
None of this hardest hard hard (sounds like Hardy har har).

[44MAG#1]

I still say colors are the way to go.
None of this hardest hard hard (sounds like Hardy har har).
Colors may be the way to go. What color would you assign for each of the 17 BHN's 5 to 22 BHN? What about the the BHN's between the two whole nbers.
How many colors would we need?
Seems to me too much work and colors. What is one ran out of a color? What shade of red would be need ETC. and so on and so forth ?

See with this post how shades can cause problems in and of themselves

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

You must not know the Resistor color chart, and I'm sure you didn't click on the link as it explains it all...infinite combinations are possible. But, as they say, ignorance is bliss.

[44MAG#1]

You must not know the Resistor color chart, and I'm sure you didn't click on the link as it explains it all...infinite combinations are possible. But, as they say, ignorance is bliss.

I see the link now.
So you are proposing putting little colored band around each bullet denoting alloy composition and hardness etc, etc.? What if it gets messed up on handling? What about sizing? What about what about lubing? Will the pretty bands stay on?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

It wouldn't have to be stripes. The PC boys are pretty creative, they'll hash that out in no time.

[44MAG#1]

It wouldn't have to be stripes. The PC boys are pretty creative, they'll hash that out in no time.

Maybe they could come up with a polka dot color.
I would like that. Since I am blissed by ignorance I could just sit and look at them. Stare into them and hope for non ignorance.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Lots of ideas. Most in this thread are solid color, but some are multi-color.
Hint: start at the end of thread and scroll backward.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?251956-Powder-coated-bullets-pics-only/page40

[44MAG#1]

Lots of ideas. Most in this thread are solid color, but some are multi-color.
Hint: start at the end of thread and scroll backward.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?251956-Powder-coated-bullets-pics-only/page40

I have some multi colored bullets. They are from Brass Monkey Bullets
They are "Hard" at 15 BHN but not "As Hard" as a "higher" BHN bullets. Believe it or not I shot some 15 BHN bullets in my 1911 this evening at 250 gr. weight.

[Willie T]

But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed.

Lead is 11.34 grams per cubic centimeter.

[44MAG#1]

But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed.

Lead is 11.34 grams per cubic centimeter.

Why would you reply to my Signature Block? That has nothing to do with the subject.
Just curious.
BTW that 11.34 grams is 175.003 grains or .4 ozs or .025 lbs or 6.829 atomic mass weight.
I have one of those calculator things on my phone.

[Willie T]

Why would you reply to my Signature Block? That has nothing to do with the subject.
Just curious.
BTW that 11.34 grams is 175.003 grains or .4 ozs or .025 lbs or 6.829 atomic mass weight.
I have one of those calculator things on my phone.

Your thread and sig line read as if you put a lot of value in doing things by the book and that you like to argue. 15 bhn like Lyman No2 is hard. Whether you measure pure lead at bhn 5 or 7 makes absolutely no difference in how we as boolit casters cast or alloy with it.
Willie

[44MAG#1]

Your thread and sig line read as if you put a lot of value in doing things by the book and that you like to argue. 15 bhn like Lyman No2 is hard. Whether you measure pure lead at bhn 5 or 7 makes absolutely no difference in how we as boolit casters cast or alloy with it.
Willie
You have missed the point entirely. Let me explain this. "HARD" is a relative term meaning it is relative to what. Many, many called 15 BHN "HARD" So if 15 BHN is hard what is 22 BHN? 10 BHN compared to softer such as 8 BHN. Is "HARD" but it is not "HARD" compared to 15 BHN. 17 BHN is "HARD" compared to 15 BHN but it isn't as hard as 22 BHN.
"HARD", how hard? Is it REALLY "HARD" or relatively "HARD"
ME going by the book???? I am probably one of the least likely to go by the book.
My signature line came about a thread where I was told mass cannot be weighed by a member that tried their best to correct me using mass in an equation
That member doesn't post anymore as far as I know. So the first line of my sig block was what I was told. Not what I AM SAYING.

[Willie T]

You have missed the point entirely. Let me explain this. "HARD" is a relative term meaning it is relative to what. Many, many called 15 BHN "HARD" So if 15 BHN is hard what is 22 BHN? 10 BHN compared to softer such as 8 BHN. Is "HARD" but it is not "HARD" compared to 15 BHN. 17 BHN is "HARD" compared to 15 BHN but it isn't as hard as 22 BHN.
"HARD", how hard? Is it REALLY "HARD" or relatively "HARD"
ME going by the book???? I am probably one of the least likely to go by the book.
My signature line came about a thread where I was told mass cannot be weighed by a member that tried their best to correct me using mass in an equation
That member doesn't post anymore as far as I know. So the first line of my sig block was what I was told. Not what I AM SAYING.

With all due respect, you do not need to explain anything about bullet hardness or prove anything to me. I am well versed in useful casting alloys and shooting them. Your point was fully understood. Many very skilled casters use nothing more than alloy composition, a thumbnail test, and shooting results rather than getting knotted up arguing about bhn. Alloy composition and how boolits are cooled is far more useful for a caster than how he measures the hardness of his boolits. Is the juice worth the squeeze is my point.
Willie

[44MAG#1]

With all due respect, you do not need to explain anything about bullet hardness or prove anything to me.

I never singled you out in this thread. You drank the juice I squeezed.

I am well versed in useful casting alloys and shooting them. Your point was fully understood.

well then.
That is good.
Many very skilled casters use nothing more than alloy composition, a thumbnail test, and shooting results rather than getting knotted up arguing about bhn.

Who was knotted up? I as a question about the used of the word "HARD". I understand about alloys, alloying, casting, even water quenching. I have done it in the past over many, many, many ,many, many years.

Alloy composition and how boolits are cooled is far more useful for a caster than how he measures the hardness of his boolits.

I am well versed in the cooling of alloys including water quenching.
Is the juice worth the squeeze is my point.
Willie
If one is drinking the juice someone else squeezed why worry about THEIR effort? If one doesn't want to drink the juice just don't drink it and if one does drink it just smile and drink.

[93Bandit]

I didn't read the whole thread, but to OPs original question, I think you basically answered it yourself. BHN is a measurement and is relative.

You're asking if 5 is bigger than 1, yes. Or if 4,578 is smaller than 13,239. Yes again.

Is 5 a big number, it depends. Compared to 0.001, yes it is. But not when compared to 4,713. So in order to determine the significance of a number or hardness, you need to apply a context and intent.

[GregLaROCHE]

For all those who want to define hardness exactly, don’t forget that it’s not only hardness that predicts boolit performance, but also toughness. That’s why many try to get some copper into their alloy. If you are using range scrap like me, it’s impossible to know exactly what you have.

[44MAG#1]

Let's try to remember the subject is hardness and hard. That is BHN.