Tumble Lube non-TL bullets?

[gloob]

I've heard it can work just fine. All you need is a light coating of alox, and you're good to go. The bullet in question is the 40 cal, top left. This is the best I have managed to get them.

The 9mm TL bullets below them shoot fairly clean, but not as good as MBC bullets.

My 223 bullets have gas checks, so that's cheating. But the grooves fill out nice!

https://i.imgur.com/2yzqgXI.jpg

Anyone?

Yes, it works for me, just like that. Yes, it works for me, but your bullets look terrible. No, tumble lubing non-TL bullets doesn't work for me.

Last time I tried this, my bore fouled (badly!) with one shot. The only difference is I cut the alox with some wax, this time. And I sized the bullets, which seems to have helped them pick up a tiny bit more lube. The gun shoots the exact same MBC bullets pretty good, sized to the same 401.

[pworley1]

The only way you will know is to try it in your gun. For the record it has worked fine for me.

[Sam Sackett]

Works for me. I just did up a batch of 358” 158RF’s last week. I don’t hot rod them, though.

If you’re doing bullets for 40 cal, that’s pushing things a bit. You will need at least 2 coats. I don’t know what “wax” you added, but if it was anything but Carnuba it won’t work.

Sam Sackett

[gloob]

I tumbled these twice, once before and once after sizing. It doesn't seem to really build up multiple coats, at least the way I do it.

On my rifle bullets, the second coat DOES make a difference. I think it's because sizing makes the TL grooves sharper and maybe shallower, but that's just a theory. As an experiment, I tried getting the grooves to fill on some 223 bullets before the sizing and checking, and they won't. After checking/sizing, they fill up. That's why I tried sizing these 40 bullets.

This batch of lube is beeswax and alox. Maybe there is something special about the old Johnson's Paste Wax. Maybe it has carnuba. Or maybe it builds up thicker. That's why I posted pics to find out if my tumble lubing is not good/thick.

The only way I have so far managed to get better fill on the single groove is by adding more lube to the pan, but then the lube clumps and sticks all over the bullets. It might be an improvement, but it's one that is not worth it to me when I can buy a new mold or just simply not shoot my own bullets in this caliber. The latter has been a pretty decent solution for the last 10 years.

[gloob]

The cheapness of premade pistol boolits and lack of a toaster oven just kicking around is keeping me from the PC/Hitek route. I rarely make pistol boolits in any caliber, TBH. I have a cheap pistol mold in all my calibers more of a comfort thing, knowing I can make some bullets if I wanted to. This is the one caliber where I decided to buy a regular lube groove mold.

With that in mind, maybe I'll try boogering the mold. You could theoretically make a series of cutters with a pilot that rides against the edge of the single groove, so the cutter can accurately divide the groove into two smaller ones... maybe small enough and hopefully sharp enough to pick up some tumble lube? I'm not sure I can make those small features accurately enough. Even if it didn't work with TL, it should still work with coatings, if I could at least get the bullets to drop out after the hack job.

I'm not too concerned with ruining the lube groove. Lubesizing is probably the last rabbit hole I would ever go down.

[schutzen-jager]

been doing it for decades on regular + tumble styles for every pistol + rifle caliber i cast for - fast, easy, + economical - never any leading issues - jmho beats powder coating in every way -

[Arkansas Paul]

It has worked great for most applications for me.
It has worked fine for .38 Spcl, .40, standard .45 Colt loads, .44 Special.

The only thing I've had a problem with has been 9mm.

[imashooter2]

I have had poor luck with the micro band designs I have tried, but film lubing standard configurations has worked well for me.

[gloob]

been doing it for decades on regular + tumble styles for every pistol + rifle caliber i cast for - fast, easy, + economical - never any leading issues - jmho beats powder coating in every way -

Am I doing anything wrong, you can tell? Does your process leave a thicker coat of lube, and if so do you manage to get any of the lube in the groove? Or do your bullets get a thick coat all over? Maybe you can share your lube recipe and process?

I have success in all my other calibers, with TL. But all the other bullets were designed for TL.


Arkansas Paul, feel free to chime in here, too. BTW, I also had issue with 9mm, until I got an oversize expander from NOE.

imashooter, I'm not sure what you mean with the micro designs and film lube. I take it you don't even bother with TL designs and just tumble lube regular bullets? Normal lube groove and/or plain bullets (the ones they make now, for PC'ers?)

[Budzilla 19]

Only boolits I tumble lube are commercial cast, already lubed boolits. They get two top coats of BLL, the original formula. I powder coat the rest. Sometimes I even add a top coat of BLL to pc boolits! Tried pc and BLL top coat on some .30 caliber slugs in a 30/30 win. They shot well, with no leading! .40 cal.gets pc only. Tumble lube design or regular lube groove doesn’t seem to make a difference. Good luck.

[Hick]

Yes indeed, TL works fine, but seem s a little firearm specific for me. I TL 223 Rem (with a gas check), 9mm, 44-40, 38 special, and 357 Magnum (revolver and rifle) and they all work great, but not in my 30-30, 32 WS and Garand. No idea why.

[gloob]

The most popular responses in this thread are the same I find from searching.

1. Shape of the bullet doesn't matter, TL works the same
2. I've never tried tumble lubing on non TL bullets, personally, but I heard it works.

I seem to be in a pretty small minority where I've tried it and it didn't work. (Just me and the folks at Lee, apparently.)

I dipped a strip of paper into melted lube and wrapped it into the lube groove of a handful of bullets. If these work, but the regular TL'd bullets don't, then I guess that might mean something.

I already started making a cutter to modify my mold. It looks like it might be viable.

It's usually a long time between my shooting sessions, and especially one's where you only get one shot before the gun is retired for cleaning. I can screw with bullets anytime. It's just a Lee 2-cavity. So's I might possibly modify/ruin my mold before I even try this batch of bullets.

[gloob]

I have some new bullets to try.

https://i.imgur.com/st8f3FS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/M9tRS5q.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/txhCj1y.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/IvaAM5B.jpg


The cutter is made from 3/8" rod.
https://i.imgur.com/r7C3e7q.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/0HFuqUR.jpg

Driven by a cordless drill, in a bushing held by vice grips.
https://i.imgur.com/Osjyub9.jpg

The mold was closed over the cutter and held shut in a vice. Then I pushed the bushing this way and that while running the drill, to get it to cut all the way around.

[gwpercle]

It (TL'ing regular grooved boolits ) has worked for me ... to the extent I don't bother with the special TL designs ... just the conventional lube grooved ones .

And don't consider using a Gas Check as cheating ... a GC is just another tool to use to get good loads . Some consider GC as a horrible thing to be avoided at all cost ...
Not So , it's just a little cup-o-metal that can help you get a good load .
Gary

[racepres]

It (TL'ing regular grooved boolits ) has worked for me ... to the extent I don't bother with the special TL designs ... just the conventional lube grooved ones .

And don't consider using a Gas Check as cheating ... a GC is just another tool to use to get good loads . Some consider GC as a horrible thing to be avoided at all cost ...
Not So , it's just a little cup-o-metal that can help you get a good load .
Gary
Yes certainly on gas checks.. sometimes they save ya... if I am experimenting...I am likely to "dip" the shank of boolits into LLA, then set in an old tin pan to "harden".. The Method hasn't let me down yet... some of the Boolit shapes however????? Different story

[schutzen-jager]

mine have a thicker coating than the ones you pictured - i'm using the Lee alox not thinned but i warm the bottle in hot tap water before using - the rifling does not usually go very deeply into the lube groove on non tl bullets so filling them is a non issue - the non tumble lubed 9 mm are loaded fairly hot because they are used mostly in my Lugers -

[gloob]

^ That pic is very helpful, thanks. It triggered some memories. I'm pretty sure I did it similarly, the first few times.

I can't even produce that result with my current lube recipe and process. I guess I drifted over at some point to filling up the TL grooves.

The irony. Lee invented the TL groove bullet. But when you follow the directions of their lube product, you might end up wondering what the grooves are even for. The lube often ends up anywhere but the groove!

[Dusty Bannister]

The LLA (Lee Liquid Alox) is intended to be applied lightly and allowed to dry hard between coatings. I would size the bullets first and then apply the lube. Sizing rubs the lube off the bands so it no longer prevents lead transferring to the barrel surface. The soft wax bullet lubes will act as a gasket to prevent hot powder gas from blowing past the bullet and gas cutting with leading in the barrel being the result. If your casting is .401" and the groove is .401" and you only apply light coats of LLA, where is the gas seal? Your problem is not likely the product, but the process. Make sure the seat and crimp process does not reduce the bullet diameter..

[gloob]

Thanks for the tips, Dusty.

I have noticed a huge variation in how people TL. I've seen a lot of people use only the thinnest sheen on their bullets that you can't even see. Not a spec of lube in the groove at all. I also wonder how that works. Maybe it's some special ingredient. Fortune Cookie demonstrates this result. But I usually see this on a low velocity bullet like 45 ACP or a gas checked bullet. I don't know, myself. I plugged my bore with fouling, trying to do that with a non-TL bullet in 40.

My bullets only get a thin sheen, but I imagine they work because the lube grooves get filled up. Same as a lube-sized bullet. I like it because they look better. They don't jam up in a match chamber. Lube doesn't build up in your seating or taper dies. And after you seat the bullet, the lube is still in there forever, even if you drop your bullet in lint or dirt and have to wipe it off.

LLA dries hard. I have a piece from a bottle that is 12 years old, and it's like a piece of hocky puck. But if you heat it, it turns back into liquid. I doubt LLA acts like a coating, at all. Once you fire it, it must liquify near instantly. If your bullets shoot right with just a thin coating, there must be some special other ingredient in your lube, or you've really got a good gun/bullet/load combo sorted out!?

[Dusty Bannister]

What would make LLA liquify? You have seen the advertising where the bullet is melted with a torch, and the LLA does not run. Once the bullet fills the hole, no gas leaks by to erode the bullet surface and lead the barrel. Size 1-2 thousandths over groove diameter, two light coats, dry and do not crimp excessively to reduce the size of the bullet.

[Outer Rondacker]

Has worked for me for years. Does make a mess of the press and gun. Its more like wax than liquid.

[gloob]

My Lee brand liquid Alox is basically wax, once the solvent has dried off. It has a slightly higher melting temp than beeswax. And when it's melted, it's now oil, which works well as a hydraulic fluid seal. Alox dries harder than most waxes, which makes it able to stick on the bullet anywhere you manage to get it. I prefer the lube grooves. And it has a higher boiling/flash point, so it works to higher velocities than most common waxes. Same reason you use veg/canola or the like for deep frying, rather than olive oil.

I assume this ad showed a torch played over a cold bullet, briefly. I wonder when and where one see's ads for reloading gear.

It's called tumble lubing, not tumble coating.

[robg]

i used to size and lube .tried lla now thats all i use .223/308/357/45-70 all work well pb and gas checked.

[Gobeyond]

I use lla on my 30-30 GG GC bullets. I lube size lube and get a pretty good coat. I use a blop in a peanut jar for 100 bullets. It’s stays a bit sticky but is easy to handle. Fairly accurate even at 200 steel. I also pan lube but have yet to try. I am impressed by such a simple method as LLA.

[Patrick L]

I do it with good results. Granted just with low velocity pistol loads, but no problems at all. Specifically I shoot the Lee .44 caliber RF in my .44 Special loads. We're only talking 3.5 grains of Bullseye, but I shoot hundreds of them, no leading at all. I do thin the LLA and do two very thin coats.

[popper]

2 thin coats of BLL on 1500 fps rifle stuff works fine.

[Finster101]

been doing it for decades on regular + tumble styles for every pistol + rifle caliber i cast for - fast, easy, + economical - never any leading issues - jmho beats powder coating in every way -

I will respectfully disagree with you on this. PC is to me much easier and far cleaner than alox that always seems to remain sticky. Plus PC has the added benefit of no smoke when fired. Not trying to start an argument. If it works for you great, just trying to point out my observations having used both.

[gloob]

Human nature to view things in black and white, when a lot of things are shades of grey.

Using the example of cast boolits, tumble lube might work 100% perfectly on a 9 BHN bullet without any lube grooves at a low enough pressure. In another caliber or to get higher velocity, it might no longer work. But you might get 100% perfect results in a number of different ways. Powder coat, gas check, harder bullets, better/more lube grooves for more lube, slower powder. Any one of these might be enough for this load to work.

You don't always need jacketed bullets to get the performance you want in a caliber, especially for pistols. But if you do need jacketed bullets for max performance, then you probably have to do all of these things to a cast bullet to get as close as possible to jacketed performance.

Bullet lube smoke is an big problem in blowback pistols and revolvers. Gotta go PC to get rid of it. But if you have any smoke with rifles or locked breech semiauto pistols, it's probably a hint that you're not done optimizing, yet. Most of the time you can eliminate smoke, completely, without going to PC.

[gloob]

Different tools, is all.

Paper patching might be beat all of that other stuff, even?