ID .45 Gov't ammo - original or repro?

[tnlonghunter]

I helped a friend of mine go through some of his late father's assorted things today, and they have a (broken) Trapdoor with this box of ammo. The deceased man was a rabid collector of all sorts of historical military things, some of which seemed to be real/authentic and others that were clearly repro/fake. I'm not up on how I would identify whether these rounds were authentic from the last 19th century. I'm leaning toward some form of repro, since the box is in really, really good condition (i.e., it seems too clean to be ~140 years old). But if any of y'all can shed light on these, I'd appreciate it.

309556
309557
309558
309559
309560

[schutzen-jager]

pictures would help

[Don McDowell]

Looks to be original

[Winger Ed.]

It's mixed lots, but they look original.
Look around the rims with a magnifying glass.
If they've been reloaded, you should be able to detect extractor marks from being pulled out of the chamber after having been fired.

[tnlonghunter]

It's mixed lots, but they look original.
Look around the rims with a magnifying glass.
If they've been reloaded, you should be able to detect extractor marks from being pulled out of the chamber after having been fired.

There do not appear to be extractor marks on Amy of the brass, so perhaps they are in fact "new" original....

My buddy is not a gun guy so, he's interested in whether they would bring any notable value to a collector? Any idea as to value?

[Winger Ed.]

Look around on the gun auction sights and see what antique ammo is going for.
They'd be worth a few bucks, but don't plan your retirement around them.

[M-Tecs]

https://oldammo.com/november04.htm

http://cartridgecollector.net/45-70-government

https://stevebarnettfineguns.com/collectible-vintage-ammunition-for-sale?category=Collectible+Ammunition

https://www.rtgammo.com/

[Battis]

It looks like the F represents the arsenal (Frankford), the number under it to the left is the month it was made, and the number across is the year it was made.

http://cartridgecollector.net/45-70-government

What kind of shape is the Trapdoor in?

[tnlonghunter]

The rifle is not in great shape. Broken at the wrist and nearly black with grime. Bore is probably plugged with dirt. I didn't get a good look at stamps or anything, so I'm not sure quite what model/year it is, but it's an infantry rifle.

[schutzen-jager]

jmho i would expect the box to be faded + lead to be very oxidized after any amount of time - seriouly doubt if they ever packed original with those mixed head stamps -

[tnlonghunter]

jmho i would expect the box to be faded + lead to be very oxidized after any amount of time - seriouly doubt if they ever packed original with those mixed head stamps -That was my initial thought as well. I've never had any interest in collecting vintage ammo, so I've never bothered to learn about it or its packaging. Now, I can say with fair confidence that this has spent years in this box, inside a wooden storage box, in a climate controlled environment that was not opened or moved. My friend's father was ill and nearly immobile for several years, and none of that man's family had/has much interest in guns (in fact, apparently neither did the father himself except as historical curiosities). Thus, there would be little chance this box was handled once purchased - whenever that was.

Given that there's no indication of extractor marks, it makes me wonder if a mixed lot of original, unfired shells was cleaned up and put in a repro box.

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[Don McDowell]

The ammunition looks to be all original altho mixed lots. Not all that uncommon as folks back then didn't necessarily shoot every round they had...
Provence on the box would be hard to determine, but I have a couple of boxes of 30 US that look pretty similar, and I know the history of those.

[hiram]

Could they be balloon head cases?

[BP Dave]

The other posts and links have covered the headstamps pretty thoroughly. I would only add that the mixed headstamp dates, the apparently mixed brass and tinned cartridges, the generic label on the box, and the very late year of production all suggest that this ammunition was repackaged by a surplus dealer, such as Bannerman's. I would also note that UMC used the phrase "U.S. Government Standard" on some of its cartridge boxes, but it also included the manufacturer's name on the label, so perhaps a surplus dealer cribbed that phrase for its repackaged product.

[tnlonghunter]

The other posts and links have covered the headstamps pretty thoroughly. I would only add that the mixed headstamp dates, the apparently mixed brass and tinned cartridges, the generic label on the box, and the very late year of production all suggest that this ammunition was repackaged by a surplus dealer, such as Bannerman's. I would also note that UMC used the phrase "U.S. Government Standard" on some of its cartridge boxes, but it also included the manufacturer's name on the label, so perhaps a surplus dealer cribbed that phrase for its repackaged product.Thank you.

All that info is very helpful, folks. I appreciate it.

Now, the next question is where/how is the best option to sell the box for my friend. I believe ease of sale will be more important than maximum dollar, though I don't want him to get taken. So, I'll try to sell locally to avoid dealing with mail order hazmat fees. Most of the specimens I see on the dealers sites above are more easily identifiable in terms of the labels on the boxes. Plus, the mixed headstamp/mixed lot nature of this box all suggests a lower price point.

Would a starting point of $75-100 be fair to a collector?

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[Battis]

The value is whatever someone will spend. Selling locally, as you know, really limits the seller. You have to find the buyer that's looking for what you're selling, and they have to be within driving range. And, do you know exactly what you're selling? Are they originals or reloads? Are they loaded with black powder, or smokeless? Were they reloaded properly? I'd break one down (pull the bullet) and see.
Historically, based on the headstamp dates, the rounds might have been carried in the Spanish American War, but there's nothing to indicate that on the box.
I've found many old cartridges in antique shops, and occasionally at a local gun shop. I've never bought old ammo online and I don't think I would. I've also never shipped ammo, but I don't think it's that involved or expensive.
Maybe contact one of the dealers listed in the above links and pick their brain. Maybe they'll make an offer. Or research selling ammo online and decide if it's worth it (Gunbroker).
I bought an antique McKeever leather pouch that held .45-70 copper cased (not brass) rounds for $150 at an antique shop. That was a good buy.
Me? I'd hold onto the cartridges and maybe display them with the old Trapdoor. Or, sell them as a set.