Dang I almost hate lawyers

[Handloader109]

I guess these lawyer things are a necessary evil. I just hate to have to use them. Besides costing money, the ones I've used just never get things right. Gave my BIL a small piece of property in MS. Contacted the MS lawyer who we used to help settle mom's estate 3 years ago. He knew the circumstances, had all the paperwork, so it should be easy. He did get paperwork right, but then emailed my brother the documents, not me. While I don't have any problems with my brother knowing about the transaction, it really is none of his business and I'd have preferred to let him know myself at the time if my choosing.

Then the lawyer sends paperwork to my BIL and copy to me saying the taxes were still owed. Paperwork dated Jan 16th. His tax doc he printed was December 12th, and I paid them before the end of the year. Too lazy to reprint or even check online. So my BIL was trying to pay what has been paid. (He got letter on the 17, me today)
Just hate having to use them.


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[ascast]

my experience has been similar, they lie, they assume I am an idiot who can't see they lie, they mail things late and they always want to "go forward" and not waste expensive time correcting the past. And don't assume that the really expensive ones are any better at mailing things promptly or on time at all. And then there are judges, .... And we should talk about the rural post delivery people, .... I wonder if the E vehicle will make it through one days run?

[Winger Ed.]

If the lawyer is doing everything himself, that's no surprise at all.
A good legal secretary is who makes them look good and professional.
Most lawyers know it too.

Mrs. Winger was a legal secretary for about 25 years.
When a firm laid off attorneys for whatever reasons, their secretaries & staff were out too.
It happened to Mrs. Winger three times. Each time- She had a new position with another firm before the sun set.
A good one usually makes about 2-3 times what an regular executive secretary does. For several reasons- they earn it too.
They do everything in a legal office except dictate documents, try cases in court, and sign off on legal documents.


My Dad had a personal friend that was a lawyer, and retired several years before Pop passed away.
When he handled Pop's estate-- with no will, he came off retirement to do it.
He also brought his legal secretary that had been with him on the Mayflower and had also retired
to do the documentation, and he basically just made the court appearances when she told him to.
He also signed whatever she put under his nose. She was also with him when we had to go see the judge
for Pop's case to keep him out of mischief.
The judge's secretary was there also to keep him on the straight and narrow as well as out of trouble.

[BLAHUT]

Abe Linken had the right idea, it is reported that he said all lawyers should be killed ???

[Winger Ed.]

Abe Linken had the right idea, it is reported that he said all lawyers should be killed ???

I think he plagiarized that from Shakespeare.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

My, my...such general, all-encompassing invective against an entire profession! We have one or two members here (perhaps more) who are attorneys, and doubtless quite competent. You'll find incompetents in every profession.

DG

[imashooter2]

Not everyone graduates at the top of the class. My luck with lawyers has been very good. Supplied options and advice, executed my decisions promptly, kept and supplied detailed records.

[stripe]

When I graduated from college I took, and passed, the entrance exam for law school at the Washington College of Law on the American University campus (from where I graduated). Somewhere along the process I just could not see myself as a practicing attorney. I loved the law as a resource and guide for the application of fairness. However, I learned that the law is subject to the skills of the individual attorney and fairness, under the law, has little to do with the outcome.

[lightman]

Theres good ones and not so good ones. And most good ones have a good Secretary! There are a few here on Cast Boolits that are good guys.

[Maineboy]

I had 36 years in law enforcement and during my career dealt with many different lawyers. Most were decent, a few were not. The same can be said for medical personnel, teachers, coworkers, neighbors, clergy, salespeople, relatives, and just about everyone else I've dealt with in my life.

[Skipper]

You may have heard this one...

What is a pile of 5,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?

A good start

[Winger Ed.]

The last time I posted my favorite lawyer joke---
I didn't get put in the penalty box, or sent to bed without dinner, but it got instantly zapped.:bigsmyl2:

[curdog007]

I would rather do work for a lawyer, than for a doctor. But I sure don't want to hire one to do something for me.

[G W Wade]

This Country was built by men in overalls, and ruined by men in suits. GW

[Plate plinker]

This Country was built by men in overalls, and ruined by men in suits. GW

Like button!

[Milky Duck]

double like that one....

[xs11jack]

Tax people are getting up there in the world too. I went to talk to the tax guy in our church. Told him the situation is small and Easy. He said come down to his office and bring $3000. NOPE, not now, not ever!!!!
Ole Jack

[Omega]

Tax people are getting up there in the world too. I went to talk to the tax guy in our church. Told him the situation is small and Easy. He said come down to his office and bring $3000. NOPE, not now, not ever!!!!
Ole JackTax software isn't much better, had one, Turbo Tax, wanting to charge me almost $200 because I had 24¢ in foreign tax. Deleted the form and back to free.

[Land Owner]

If those in the profession indicate a certain lawyer is (say) aggressive and worth it, take their advice - HIRE HIM. It might cost you, but the outcome will be as he says up front it will be. What really is "the cost" when an outcome from a poor choice is both expensive and disheartening.

[Wag]

As with anything, trust, but verify. Read the stuff you're signing. An attorney told me a story of a contract that had been signed where the word, "not," was worth millions of dollars to a plaintiff. Apparently, an attorney didn't read HIS OWN documents and the phrase, "shall not," was rendered into, "shall." When he got in front of the judge, he tried to claim that his secretary had left it out. The judge stopped cold. The room went dead quiet and she looked up at the attorney and in a freezing cold tone, told the attorney, "It's not your secretary's signature here, it's yours," and proceeded to rule against him, right on the spot. Of course, the original client who signed the contract also should have read it.

I read everything and I ALWAYS find errors in legal docs, tax returns, audits, leases.... You name it. Frequently, you'll find "errors and omissions" clauses in the paperwork but that doesn't cover matters of agreement, only matters of minor incident, such as a misspelled address, etc.

Lawyers notwithstanding, you have to cover your own butt.

--Wag--

[ascast]

i have always been curious regarding the Roman practice called "Decimation". I think it might apply here. Look it up.

[Rapier]

Well, the practice of law was illegal in the first colonies of the now United States. Many of my customers were attorneys, I enjoyed them as customers. Did not enjoy hiring them. 10/10 times I drew the instructions and contracts, expecting them to make a legal document, they just copied what I had written, verbatim, then sent me a bill.
Unfortunately they are necessary because many times a Judge will tell you that you must be represented by legal council, in his court.
I know some that are very good, they scare the pants off the ones not so good. In all things, you must keep an eye on anyone that represents you, what they do they do in your name, never allow a mistake to go forward, regardless.

[John Guedry]

Never had to hire a defence lawyer but I understand they set their rate for when they bring their own witnesses. Cheaper if you bring 'em.:twisted:

[JoeJames]

I have been a lawyer in a small town in the Arkansas Delta for 46 years. I have done tolerably well. One thing I have noticed about this small town, pop @7,500, is that when someone does not do a good job or over charges, the word gets around pretty fast. There was another lawyer in town who would charge fees that shocked the conscience - finally he moved on to Little Rock. The circuit judge remarked to me that the lawyer’s situation reminded him of what had been said of certain Indian tribes - they’d stay in an area until it was literally full of crap and them move on. I expect in a large city the word does not get around very well and there will always be large herds of new sheep to be shorn.

[Handloader109]

Well, his secretary is pretty bad. Changed one of the two names of my address. Tax notices still gets here. She might be just copying him, but she isn't doing it well. Yes a great secretary is worth gold, and a poor one can sink you.

Oh, mentioning doctors are we now? My wife has a bad sciatic nerve pain and we had scheduled a spinal procedure early last week for Friday morning. Went to hospital and they finally took her back an hour and a half after appt time. I didn't get out of the restroom before they called me down. Seems no one can read. They can't do the procedure at that location. Have to go to their pain clinic. New appointment some times in the future. Dang idiots. How the hell do you get hip out of spine? I'm more aggravated over this as she's in extreme pain and no one gives a crap.

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[gifbohane]

If those in the profession indicate a certain lawyer is (say) aggressive and worth it, take their advice - HIRE HIM. It might cost you, but the outcome will be as he says up front it will be. What really is "the cost" when an outcome from a poor choice is both expensive and disheartening.

Hired a lot of lawyers when I worked. We had a mean, vicious, attack dog driving my company crazy on a Florida case. So next time I had to hire a lawyer in Florida, I hired this guy to be vicious and attack the new opponent.. Found out that he dealt the same raw and dead meat treatment to us the client.

[JoeJames]

Hired a lot of lawyers when I worked. We had a mean, vicious, attack dog driving my company crazy on a Florida case. So next time I had to hire a lawyer in Florida, I hired this guy to be vicious and attack the new opponent.. Found out that he dealt the same raw and dead meat treatment to us the client.That's fine, but more often you need a lawyer that can lock things down good and tight. Mad dog lawyer are normally not so good on estate planing or land transfers - where it by God counts ... just saying. For the last 20 years or so I have tried to help the middle class in my small town avoid Probate Court and tax consequences. Last thing is to avoid Probate. I ain't particularly a mad dog anymore, I just try to help. I am for sure old school on that.

[stripe]

There was one time when I needed legal representation over a Mechanics Lein against my property. An invalid Mechanics Lein that became very nasty and abusive on the part of the lender. I called my attorney, spoke to his secretary, and laid out the facts with the same proof of payment I had submitted to the lender earlier. Not his legal assistant - his secretary. That afternoon I got a call from the lender and gosh, was he ever apologetic, contrite and might I say even sounded a bit frightened. When she called me to tell me not to worry, there was a tone of satisfaction in her voice that belied the butt-whipping she must have laid on the lender. Never sent me a bill, but I sent her flowers. That is a fond memory.

[Ohio Rusty]

What is the difference between a Lawyer and a Carp ?? One is a bottom-dwelling scum sucker and the other is a fish.
.....
Ohio Rusty ><>

[hwilliam01]

As to the comments about secretaries....I had an experience early in my career that stuck with me and served me well. I had been out of college on my first job with a major fortune 500 company (household name) to deve;lop something new. It was a new product line for the corporation business and it was thought best that we should kep the business in house. We had contracted with another division of the same corporation for a tier 1 schedule (very top level) for $50K. Six months later, we were getting excuses and they needed more money to complete the top level schedule. MAnagement sent this new division another $100K. 6 months later...nothing. We sent another $50K and were beginning to wonder if we would every get anything. Were was the money going? My boss told me to get on an airplane and go out there and see what was going on...talk to the man in charge and findout what you can...we need answers. As a new college graduate (that thought he knew everything) and a new employee that was given a little power to go to another division and Kick butt and take names....I was packed and off to the airport. When I get there on the other side of the country, I had rehearsed exactly what I, a new college graduate, was going to say to a coporate VP about our project and what I needed for assurances that we were going to get our product.

I arrived at his office and greeted by his secretary. She asked "How may I help you?" I sent into my speil " I was sent here from the Philly division to investigate what's going on with our project. I need to talk to the man in charge....I need to find out whats going on!!!!" She looks me dead in the eye and softly says. "Well....the man behind the door is in charge, but I KNOW what's going on....now which one of us do you want to talk to?" I learned more from her about our project then the stale promises I got from the executives. She did not have the political orientation the senior management had and answered my questions directly. Bottom line was, that our project was the only valid charge number and every level of managment, rank and file, all the way to the custodial staff was banging that charge number. We cancelled the project and went with a commercial company. It was worth about $8 million dollars in 1980 dollars...a lot of money. Siince then, I make it a point to tallk to everyone on a project. True story!

[JoeJames]

What is the difference between a Lawyer and a Carp ?? One is a bottom-dwelling scum sucker and the other is a fish.
.....
Ohio Rusty ><>

Oddly enough I have heard more than a few lawyer jokes. My favorite is about a lab tech convention. Some of them were sitting around and the subject of lab animals came up. One feller said his company used white rats. The other feller said they used to use white rats.

The first one asked "Well, what do you use?"
The other feller said "We use lawyers".
First feller said "Why on earth do you use lawyers?"
The other feller responded: "Well, we used to use white rats, but we found that after a time we'd get kind of attached to them".

[MaryB]

When I was in the car accident that earned me a plate in my neck my lawyer was good EXCEPT when it came time to close the case out. $5k sitting in escrow still to pay me, hospital had an outstanding $365 bill. Lawyer tried for a year to get them to discount it with no luck. I finally told him to just pay it, I was tired of the collection threats from the clinic and tired of dealing with the case. Took me 6 months to get him to pay it, then another 6 to finish paying me what I was owed(he had taken his cut already...)... all to just close out the case.

[Shopdog]

Was at a small dinner party 25'ish years ago...

This absolutely obnoxious hot shot lawyer asks about hiring me for a new entrance to their house. Yes,it was in the right part of town,yes I own a mill shop,and know how to use it....

So I say something to the effect,half joking..."dude,you can't afford our prices" and immediately went back to talking with friends...

"Yes I can" he blurts out....

Made $1050 per hour on that job. Will say,after their divorce... his wife became a very good customer. She's still a friend to me and wifeypoo and gets family pricing.

[Land Owner]

Not going to "talk bad" about attorneys. When you "need" one, pick a Good one, because there are a LOT of mediocre attorneys - good for turning your money into theirs. ASK a lot of questions. You are only as "good" as your attorney, who can make the rest of your life miserable if you get a "poor" one.

An attorney can be, but is NOT your friend, so do not try to make them one. Help your attorney help you. Make your attorney's life easier, and your life will be easier. How you "do that" is up to you, but asking a LOT of questions, up front, usually helps.

An aggressive attorney can and will be expensive and may be the BEST litigator for your benefit. YOU must choose BEFORE you hire them. After "it" is over is a poor time to bad mouth YOUR poor choice. Changing horses, mid-stream, is costly, so better to do your homework first.

[G W Wade]

Pard told me several years ago, that it was so cold in Regina that he saw a lawyer with his hands in his own pockets GW

[jdgabbard]

Reading through the two pages of comments here has me chuckling a bit...

So as someone in the legal field, I'm just going to say there are a lot of misunderstandings about the legal business here. First off, I'm ACTUAL paralegal. Not a secretary, not an "assistant", and not one of those people who work in a law office and call themselves a paralegal. I have a degree in Legal Research and Writing, have certification, and have to do annual continuing education to keep current - just like attorneys do. I've been in the field for 12 years in this role. But I grew up in it as well, with a father who was an Attorney, Assistant DA, District Attorney, Associate District Judge, District Judge, Appellate Judge, and later a ALJ for the Federal Government. Stepmom is an Attorney who primarily does Real Estate Law, Family Law, and Estate Planning. Though these days, she mostly works on contract for a bank reading Abstracts and doing Title Opinions. Don't know what an Abstract is? Well, only about three States in the Nation use them.

So I gave the above information not to pump my chest up. Instead I provided it to emphasize that this is to a degree a family business. Much like a old timey carpenter, cobbler, blacksmith, or farmer. With that, some may be better than others. But often times even an attorney who isn't the best is adequate for most tasks. There are always exceptions. And you still find all of the same plagues in the business that you see in other business: greed, ineptitude, and sometimes lack of experience in a given area of law. In my experience for every "bad attorney" you can point to any other field of business and show someone who is bad at their job.

The problem that I see with most clients who have a dislike for the legal professional, and this is a generalization, is that they hire an attorney with an expectation of an specific outcome. Rather than hiring an attorney to fix a problem within the limits of the law. Often times, the specific outcome that is desired is something that quite frankly isn't going to happen. But, that doesn't mean there isn't a solution to the problem. Take a personal injury case, you might have legitimately been injured, and have $100k in medical bills. You can file suit, take the case all the way to court and get a judgement for $500k from the judge. But that doesn't mean you'll ever see any of that money. If the at-fault doesn't have money to give you where do you think it's going to come from? Or, you can negotiate with their insurance, your own medical providers, possibly your own health insurance, look for underinsured motorist policies which cover you, and see if you can make the money available work.
On the other side of this coin, if you look at the real estate end, it's not uncommon for an attorney to find mistakes in a previous title opinion which needs to be corrected. Sometimes this is due to the attorney missing something. Sometimes this is due to mistakes on the ground made by the owner - such as improper location of a fence for several generations. In either case, these obviously have to be corrected. The real problem is what your State laws allow for when it comes to correcting these issues. This varies from State to State dependent on the laws in that jurisdiction.

Another issue I often see, and have seen in this thread, is complaints about the cost of attorneys. Ok, now we're talking tangibles. The inherent problem with the legal field as it concerns it's practice as a business is that you're hiring someone who is versed, tested by the the body that governs the professional abilities and conduct of the state, and who's sole source of income is a result of the profession they practice. Almost all states require a doctorate level degree in order to test for the bar (legal test to ensure you're fit to practice the profession). And because of this most attorneys come out into the wild owing as much money in the cost of their education as any other professional level degree would. In Oklahoma the average cost of Law School all in is close to $200k-250K. This is in addition to their undergraduate degree, whatever that cost them. They may actually have several degrees... But on average the typical undergrad degree unsubsidized is going to be around $70k, maybe $40k if it's subsidized. Then you have to get an office and it's overhead, hire staff, pay their salaries, and make a living. All while paying back those student loans. Especially in Rural Areas this can be difficult, because there just isn't as much business. But you still have to make essentially the same money at minimum to cover the costs.

Another thing I often hear is that people aren't allowed to represent themselves, and that a judge forces them to hire an attorney. Well, the simple answer to this is that courts and the law have rules. You don't know them. You haven't been trained in them. Generally speaking the average person even after reading them isn't going to understand what they mean. And the judge doesn't have the time or the fortitude to hold your hand. And as such, requires you to find an attorney. This isn't even touching on the law or it's many theories of operation... SOMETIMES there are exceptions made, and person is allowed to represent themselves. This is usually only after the judge has questioned the person and deemed them competent to do so. Most attorneys who find themselves on the other side of the law will hire an attorney. And they do it for a darn good reason.

I can go on and on about this topic...

[Bmi48219]

i have always been curious regarding the Roman practice called "Decimation". I think it might apply here. Look it up.

Decimation: A practice that should be applied to politicians.

[wv109323]

95% of lawyers give the other 5% a bad name.

[Bmi48219]

My limited experience with attorneys taught me a friend’s referral is not always better than a phone book. In the early eighties my wife’s uncle past away. He’d never married or had children. Raised by blue collar German immigrants and quit school in tenth grade. Landed at Iwo Jima, then worked at a bowling alley. He went to work at a nationally acclaimed zoo and became the ‘elephant keeper’. He had a knack for investments. When he died his estate was in excess of 2M. His sister’s friend recommended her attorney brother to settle the estate / will. The day he died she packed ALL his original estate documents into a couple paper bags and dropped them at the attorney’s office, without making any copies. By the time the estate was settled his four siblings split $124,000.00. In less than a year the attorney had left the country.

On the other hand I lucked out when purchasing my first house, on a land contract, from an out of state owner. My buddy suggested a real estate attorney he had used. His fee was $250 to draft the offer to purchase, review the contract, handle negotiations and host the closing.
He wrote my offer fixing the proration of property taxes due at closing (state, county and city) on a ‘due date’ basis. He saved me $450.00 right there. Also showed me how to break out my payments into Interest, Principle and New Balance on the back of my monthly payment check - above where the seller endorsed the check. When I paid the house off three years later the seller didn’t agree with my computed pay off amount (his accountant later verified I was correct) but couldn’t argue because he had signed the checks under each computation. So that time a referral worked out great.

[.429&H110]

This could be a rant about any state licensed profession.
Doctors lawyers dentists engineers undertakers fiduciaries car dealers surveyors well-drillers plumbers contractors
We hope they do their best with what we give them - we're hoping for perfection and a minor fee.

We must do our due diligence and clearly state what we expect and write it down, dated, signed, in triplicate.
Even hospitals do so these days... otherwise they can't get paid.
That is the lesson I learned in invoice-writing class. Real education, that class.

I asked the Toyota salesman "Do people bring lawyers to buy cars?"
"Sure" he said, "that's what company lawyers do when they buy for a company"
Says I "Then do I need a lawyer?" "Hope not" he says.
Turns out after three weeks the new title didn't happen.
Then I reminded him that I may yet have to bring a lawyer.
I had my paid contract, in triplicate for sure.
It worked out, dealer pays Toyota, Toyota releases title.
Soon? Well, pretty soon.

[country gent]

Most lawyers arnt that bad of people I hate the reasons and circumstances I have to hire them or deal with them. Keep in mind they have to deal with some pretty nasty unsavory things too.

[ascast]

My last dealing with a lawyer was in regards to a codes issue. He was criminally incompetent. It was a scam run by two lawyers and their relative small town judges. I could write a book. The big trouble is you can not prosecute them for misconduct or incompetence. Any conversations you have are in private. Therefore your word against theirs. Since they have "credentials" they will win, and have lunch at the club with the judge. I think it was Seneca the Greek or maybe some Roman who is on record as first saying "kill all the lawyers". You certainly get more justice if you spend more money. dont get me started....

[murf205]

When Mamamurf and I needed to obtain guardianship of our grandson, I went in search of an attorney and found a friend to go along with it. I'll tell you straight up that he and his legal assistants are as compassionate and honest as you can find. The clerk at the courthouse was giving us a LOT of trouble saying that they didn't issue guardianship. He would not take no for an answer and, although it didn't happen over night, the law prevailed and the cost was shockingly low, especially for the time they put in. When I asked if he was sure about the cost, he said"I work cheap for good people". BTW, he is a very accomplished bird hunter with some of the best dogs I have ever seen.

[Texas by God]

Doesn’t “Decimate” mean “Reduce by one tenth”?
I always laugh when a TV wrestler threatens to decimate his opponent…..,


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[WRideout]

I was living in PA and seeking to divorce my wife who lived in TN. I actually found a Knoxville attorney who was honest, up front and businesslike. We litigated the entire thing without my having met him once. After it was all over, we met for coffee, and he paid his own tab.

Wayne

[JoeG52]

Doesn’t “Decimate” mean “Reduce by one tenth”?
I always laugh when a TV wrestler threatens to decimate his opponent…..,


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Originally it was a punishment to soldiers. They were lined up and every 10th one was executed.

[Winger Ed.]

Originally it was a punishment to soldiers. They were lined up and every 10th one was executed.

The ancient Romans were known to do it, and that may be how the word got popular.
I think I'd read somewhere the French did a little of that as late as WWI.