revolvers without adjustable sights

[ebb]

I went to the handgun range today and shot 3 handguns that didn't have adjustable sights. I was shooting cast bullets that I reloaded out of a modrn Taurus total titanium 2 inch barrel revolver, and 2 S&W revolvers, one is a Victory model with a 4inch barrel and one looks just like a Victory model but according to the numbers was made after the war. They shot my hand loads horribly. what am I doing wrong? Do the Victory models need a special load developed for each gun or is there a load that shoots well from them listed in pet loads somewhere II need to be following? The little Taurus was closer to point of aim than the other 2 but it was far from perfect.

[JoeJames]

Fixed sight revolvers are regulated at the factory with commercial ammo. I try to work up loads based on commercial loads that were widely available at that time. From Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers pub @1935 - factory 38 Special factory loads with a 158 grain lead round nose bullet were charged between 3 grains of Bullseye for 790 fps for one load, and another different factory load with the same 158 grain type lead round nose bullet but charged with 3.6 grains of Bullseye for 860 fps. I am not recommending those loads, but merely re-stating Hatcher. That is how I have worked up fairly accurate loads for my old S&W 32 Long H.E.'s.

[justindad]

Define “shot horribly” - group sizes, average POI vs POA, barrel leading, etc.
*
Have these ever shot well for you? If so, what were the conditions and how did you define “shot well”?
*
Did all three shoot the same, or differently? Might need to define “shot horribly” three times, once for each gun.

[Winger Ed.]

Adjustable sights have more to do with the point of impact than group sizes.

Group sizes are more nearly controlled by the ammo, and you doing your part.

[megasupermagnum]

Besides the fact that getting one that shoots perfectly to POA is like winning the lottery, the other problem is fixed sights, usually being a frame cutout are tiny and reflective. They are a half step better than no sights at all.

Personally I hate that they are still the norm on small revolvers. The only revolver I still own with fixed sights is an LCR. If I could get one with adjustable sights I would, even for pocket carry. Novak dovetail sights would be ideal, I don't understand why they aren't standard yet.

[stubshaft]

I had to adjust the loads for my S&W 642, 36 and Model 10. They were regulated for 158 gr. factory loads and when received the 642's barrel wasn't clocked in properly. A quick trip back to S&W fixed that. You can adjust velocity to raise or lower your POI on target.

[Green Frog]

While I have acquired over the years a trio of tiny S&Ws, a 32 S&WL I frame snub, a 38 S&W Terrier (also an I frame) and a "Baby" Chiefs Special in 38 Spl, I much prefer my adjustable sighted Models 60-4 and 631. Adjustablity is a positive, but overall, I find adjustable sight blades easier to see with my old eyes. Of course everyone has to decide what gun works for whatever they want to use it for.

Froggie

[Rick R]

Novak dovetail sights would be ideal, I don't understand why they aren't standard yet.

I own. 3” GP-100 with them. Took it to Novak’s and they put a tritium night sight up front.
You sir are 100% correct, it is “ideal”.

[TNsailorman]

I consider a pistol/revolver a short range weapon for my own personal use. inside 25 yards on a man sized target it is a pint and shoot situation. I much prefer the fixed sights on a revolver over the adjustable sights. Just my preference anyway and not down grading anyones elses likes. I shoot mostly double action and I can acquire the fixxed sights much quicker than adjustable. For me after many years of practice, the act of bringing a revolver down out of recoil while beginning the double action pull for the next shot is much quicker getting back on target. my experience anyway and not binding on anyone, james

[racepres]

Fixed sight revolvers are regulated at the factory with commercial ammo. I try to work up loads based on commercial loads that were widely available at that time. From Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers pub @1935 - factory 38 Special factory loads with a 158 grain lead round nose bullet were charged between 3 grains of Bullseye for 790 fps for one load, and another different factory load with the same 158 grain type lead round nose bullet but charged with 3.6 grains of Bullseye for 860 fps. I am not recommending those loads, but merely re-stating Hatcher. That is how I have worked up fairly accurate loads for my old S&W 32 Long H.E.'s.
Believe it or Not... some loading adjustments do seem to have a Marginal effect on windage as well... For Me
Maybe it is the way I hold the Revolver...
Remember, some of us learned with a Ruger Standard Model 22RF. Go From There



I consider a pistol/revolver a short range weapon for my own personal use. inside 25 yards on a man sized target it is a pint and shoot situation. I much prefer the fixed sights on a revolver over the adjustable sights. Just my preference anyway and not down grading anyones elses likes. I shoot mostly double action and I can acquire the fixxed sights much quicker than adjustable. For me after many years of practice, the act of bringing a revolver down out of recoil while beginning the double action pull for the next shot is much quicker getting back on target. my experience anyway and not binding on anyone, james

I cannot convince myself to shoot Double Action... Just Not Natural for me.. But, once regulated...I do OK
Lets say "I am Confident"

[243winxb]

Add linotype to the alloy. Hard bullets dont skid or slump.

My 5.3 grs of Unique that gives 798 fps, does not group as well or to point of aim.

Both guns like this 700X load.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/s-w-337pd-and-m60.1356/full


No linotype? Oven heat treat some bullets to harden, as a test. Alloy needs 2% antimony & 2 weeks to fully harden.

[gc45]

The OP does not mention loads or distance he is shooting; Expectations have increased over time, so have distances many expect their revolvers to be effective. Revolvers and even the first autos say, 1911's as an example, were not intended for long range. Sure, the lucky shot stuff took place, Bill Hickok's 90 paces kill is an example, if it really happened. Some handguns shoot really well at say 50 to 75 yds, a few at 100 yds, but most are 25 yds and less. Yeah, a gun rest on a table can get us 1 inch groups, sometimes, but not all that often. Someone gets a one inch group and now he has a one inch shooter that likely can't repeat that one inch..The 38 special loads using 3 grains of bullseye and 158gr cast are pretty much right on in three model 36 Smiths I have but none shoot one inch, even at 10yds benched. But you sure would not want them pointing at you in the dark. Were I the OP here, I would try known loads in my gun first, those made for the gun and the timeframe of their history seeing if they improve. I would not load willy nilly looking for some unknown load to be accurate, and by all means use the proper bullet design for your cartridge, plenty of time to experiment later on.

[racepres]

The OP does not mention loads or distance he is shooting; Expectations have increased over time, so have distances many expect their revolvers to be effective. Revolvers and even the first autos say, 1911's as an example, were not intended for long range. Sure, the lucky shot stuff took place, Bill Hickok's 90 paces kill is an example, if it really happened. Some handguns shoot really well at say 50 to 75 yds, a few at 100 yds, but most are 25 yds and less. Yeah, a gun rest on a table can get us 1 inch groups, sometimes, but not all that often. Someone gets a one inch group and now he has a one inch shooter that likely can't repeat that one inch..The 38 special loads using 3 grains of bullseye and 158gr cast are pretty much right on in three model 36 Smiths I have but none shoot one inch, even at 10yds benched. But you sure would not want them pointing at you in the dark. Were I the OP here, I would try known loads in my gun first, those made for the gun and the timeframe of their history seeing if they improve. I would not load willy nilly looking for some unknown load to be accurate, and by all means use the proper bullet design for your cartridge, plenty of time to experiment later on.

Well Said

[JoeJames]

The OP does not mention loads or distance he is shooting; Expectations have increased over time, so have distances many expect their revolvers to be effective. Revolvers and even the first autos say, 1911's as an example, were not intended for long range. Sure, the lucky shot stuff took place, Bill Hickok's 90 paces kill is an example, if it really happened. Some handguns shoot really well at say 50 to 75 yds, a few at 100 yds, but most are 25 yds and less. Yeah, a gun rest on a table can get us 1 inch groups, sometimes, but not all that often. Someone gets a one inch group and now he has a one inch shooter that likely can't repeat that one inch..The 38 special loads using 3 grains of bullseye and 158gr cast are pretty much right on in three model 36 Smiths I have but none shoot one inch, even at 10yds benched. But you sure would not want them pointing at you in the dark. Were I the OP here, I would try known loads in my gun first, those made for the gun and the timeframe of their history seeing if they improve. I would not load willy nilly looking for some unknown load to be accurate, and by all means use the proper bullet design for your cartridge, plenty of time to experiment later on.Exactly - my first load for a Victory Smith 380/200 was a 148 grain WC; nope - shot about 5 inches low at 15 yards. It was regulated for a 200 grain lead round nose bullet = dwell time.

[ebb]

I had not shot a handgun in years so I am sure much of my problem is me. I was shooting a shoot and see targetand had to hold on the top edge of the target to get close to the center with the Victory S&Ws. I shoot two dead center bulls eyes with the Taraus, and I will assume the lack of a group was me. The V model S&Ws, one is an old gun and it shot fairly good with jacketed ammo llast time I shoot it. The other was a gun a loaned a guy some money on and he was to get it back when he paid up, never saw him again. It came with a 6inch barrel and shoot way to the left, then I got to looking and the barrel was bent. I got 2 5 inch barrels NOS from Sarco. I made a jig to support the frame and bolted all to a piece of light channel iron and took the barrel off and put a new 5 in its place. It clocked the sight with .010 cylinder gap but never made as good groups with the new barrel. Does it need to be broke in as it probably only has 50 -60 shots through it?

[Larry Gibson]

Pray tell what ammunition you were using in each revolver?

[Speedo66]

While a fixed sight gun may not shoot to point of aim with different loads, if all factors are the same, i.e., bullet weights are equal, powder load is equal, etc, the gun should at least group well.

The rest will be determined by how well the shooter is able to duplicate the sight picture with each shot and their steadiness.

If the problem is the same with all the guns, either the loads are not equal or the problem lies with the person holding the guns.

[megasupermagnum]

While a fixed sight gun may not shoot to point of aim with different loads, if all factors are the same, i.e., bullet weights are equal, powder load is equal, etc, the gun should at least group well.

The rest will be determined by how well the shooter is able to duplicate the sight picture with each shot and their steadiness.

If the problem is the same with all the guns, either the loads are not equal or the problem lies with the person holding the guns.
It does not work that way in reality. I did such a thing with a 3" barrel Ruger SP101. With fixed sights it wasn't too bad. Windage was acceptable, not perfect. It shot about 6" low at 25 yards, and no it was not the load. This was a 327 federal, the only two options at that time were 85gr and 100gr. That could have been fixed by filing the front sight. With Federal 100gr AE from a bench I could get about 6" groups at 25 yards. It was serviceable.

I then had adjustable sights installed. A a Ruger rear sight, and a custom front sight. The very first group from that gun was at 50 yards measured 3". It won't average that, but real sights made a monumental difference. Human eyes are tricky things. I'm not here to say fixed sights are never a good choice, but I can guarantee that a person will always shoot better with large sights with no glare, and little or no angles.

[StrawHat]

…It does not work that way in reality…

I'm not here to say fixed sights are never a good choice, but I can guarantee that a person will always shoot better with large sights with no glare, and little or no angles...

Apparently your reality and mine varies a bit.

This front sight,

309643

on this revolver

309644

produce groups that rival my Target revolvers.

Kevin

[FergusonTO35]

Besides the fact that getting one that shoots perfectly to POA is like winning the lottery, the other problem is fixed sights, usually being a frame cutout are tiny and reflective. They are a half step better than no sights at all.

Personally I hate that they are still the norm on small revolvers. The only revolver I still own with fixed sights is an LCR. If I could get one with adjustable sights I would, even for pocket carry. Novak dovetail sights would be ideal, I don't understand why they aren't standard yet.

This 1000%!! Why why why are we stuck at about circa 1900 with snubby sights? Even the LCR, which is probably the most advanced snub ever, is saddled with default sights.

[FergusonTO35]

My 1967 S&W 10-5 is pinpoint accurate with any boolit at least 158 grains. Anything less still shoots well but prints low. Strangely, my 1988 Service Six is not as accurate but pretty close to POA with every boolit I've tried in it.

[charlie b]

Why fixed? Why not? Snubbies are meant for close range. I would not mind a 'shotgun rib' and bead on one. Get or load ammo that shoots to POI.

Anything 4" or longer revolver barrel and I'd like to have adjustable sights. Same with an semi-auto for me. Sub-compact for fixed sights and larger adjustable.

[Fast Asleep]

To raise the point of impact on a fixed sight revolver without modifying it one must look to heavier bullets as well as lower velocity to generate more recoil and muzzle rise while the bullet makes its trip down barrel. To lower the impact, lighter and faster bullets are needed.

[ebb]

Cast bullets from my 158 grain lee mold 20 parts lead 1 part pewter over Hogdgon 700. on this particular day. I have been diagnosed with cataracts and was having trouble seeing the half round front sights on both of the victories. I have always developed a load for each rifle and have not been doing so with the handguns. Do they need to have a tuned load to shoot, or can I just find the right load and get something that will be good?

[ebb]

I think before I go too crazy I need to try shooting on a much brighter day(very overcast on Friday). I need to figure out glasses, Readers or distance? and get a few sessions shooting the handguns to get steady. I need to do a separate target for each gun. And try some of my other hand loads and factory ammo in all of them.

[hoodat]

Ebb, please don't take offense here, but you are shooting 38 S&W, not 38 Special in the Victory models aren't you?? jd

[FergusonTO35]

Victory models were made in both .38 Special and .38 S&W.

[StrawHat]

Cast bullets from my 158 grain lee mold 20 parts lead 1 part pewter over Hogdgon 700. on this particular day. I have been diagnosed with cataracts and was having trouble seeing the half round front sights on both of the victories. I have always developed a load for each rifle and have not been doing so with the handguns. Do they need to have a tuned load to shoot, or can I just find the right load and get something that will be good?

I have a dozen and a half revolvers chambered for the 45 ACP. No, I do not have a tuned load for each, nor is one necessary. You should be able to easily find one load that shoots well in both of yours.

Besides, when I was competing in PPC, Federal 38 S&W Special Match Ammunition was the hot ticket to shoot. It was accurate in everyone’s revolvers.

Kevin

[ebb]

Sounds like I need to get the recipe for that Federal load, jacketed bullets or cast? Is the powder and charge weight available?

[dverna]

I have a pair of Colt SAA’s that I “butchered”. In order to get the guns to shoot to POA I had to file the sights. My guns are tools and I needed these pistols to shoot a mouse fart 125 gr load to POA at 10 yards for CAS.

So, “butchering” them was acceptable to me.

None of your guns are “precious” so my advice is decide what load you want them to perform with. Do you want light plinking loads or maximum performance for self defense?

You can likely find a load that will shoot to POA by playing with bullet weight and speed without “butchering” it but is that what you want?

[rintinglen]

In line with what Don said, you can adjust a fixed sighted revolver to shoot to point of aim. But it will be restricted to that one load. Other loadings and bullets (or boolits) will very likely not shoot to the same point of aim. And some will diverge a long ways.

[Green Frog]

Sounds like I need to get the recipe for that Federal load, jacketed bullets or cast? Is the powder and charge weight available?

Not to butt in on friend Kevin, but in my PPC days at least, the Federal and Remington target loads for 38 Special were lead wad cutters, usually swaged HBWCs and were referred to as Mid Range Wad Cutters. We reloaded for them with 148 gr HBWCs over cat sneeze loads of Bullseye, HP 38, and 700X. I can’t remember ever seeing a jacketed 38 Special round fired in PPC, but if I had, we would have labeled that guy a newbie!

If I were to unlimbers my old K-38 for some serious target work, it would be fed my reloads, flush seated 148 gr HBWCs over 3.2 gr of Bullseye or an equivalent charge of HP 38. (700X has gotten too expensive and hard to find around here.). Oh yeah, I just remembered I used some Green Dot successfully too... I’ve got a bunch of that left from my flirtation with shotshell reloading.

Froggie

[gwpercle]

It takes a little load development and testing to find what combination of bullet weight and velocity will get the ammo on target . But all service revolvers , like the Victory model , were regulated for the ammo used / issued at that time ...usually 158 gr. Round Nose , standard velocity 38 special .
The new Taurus may be regulated for one of the newer Self-Defense weights of ammo ...
If the owners manual has no info ... call Taurus and ask .
It takes a little load development but you will soon find a load your fixed sighted revolvers like .
Gary

[racepres]

It takes a little load development and testing to find what combination of bullet weight and velocity will get the ammo on target . But all service revolvers , like the Victory model , were regulated for the ammo used / issued at that time ...usually 158 gr. Round Nose , standard velocity 38 special .
The new Taurus may be regulated for one of the newer Self-Defense weights of ammo ...
If the owners manual has no info ... call Taurus and ask .
It takes a little load development but you will soon find a load your fixed sighted revolvers like .
Gary
ie, My model 85 38 Taurus...(mfg Date???) shoots 158 grain weight, cast boolits, to POA Elevation, at 725 to 750 fps

[FergusonTO35]

All my snubbies do great with Lyman 148 grain wadcutters over 3 grains Bullseye so that's what I feed 'em!

[slughammer]

.......I need to figure out glasses, Readers or distance?

.........And try some of my other hand loads and factory ammo in all of them.

Get some readers. The sight picture should be clear. Target blurry is OK. Go to the drug store and try all the readers. Hold pill bottles at arms length and read the fine print.

I wouldn't waste my money on factory ammo. A 158gr boolit from a Lee mold sized at .358 should shoot an accurate group in both those guns.

What powder from Hodgdon and what is the charge weight?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

[35 Whelen]

When I first started shooting fixed-sight revolvers in CAS a decade or so ago, I filed and bent sights, certain that my revolvers weren't shooting straight. Then my desire to hunt with my revolvers dictated that I shoot a longer ranges which was 50 yds. at the time. As my shooting technique developed in order to make hits at longer ranges, I discovered that it wasn't my revolvers that weren't shooting straight, it was me. As such I had to have the front sights replaced on a couple of my SA revolvers and start all over.

What I've found since then is any well made revolver loaded with a load that's reasonably ballistically close to the original load in which the revolver was chambered, should shoot very close to POA. But, load a lighter than standard bullet, POI will drop, load a heavier bullet and POI will likely be higher, though I don't see as much vertical change when switching to a heavier bullet. In my experience some calibers seem more susceptible than others with the 45 Colt at the top of that list.


Besides the fact that getting one that shoots perfectly to POA is like winning the lottery, the other problem is fixed sights, usually being a frame cutout are tiny and reflective. They are a half step better than no sights at all.

Personally I hate that they are still the norm on small revolvers. The only revolver I still own with fixed sights is an LCR. If I could get one with adjustable sights I would, even for pocket carry. Novak dovetail sights would be ideal, I don't understand why they aren't standard yet.

I don't have anything against adjustable sights at all other than for field/hard use they can be fragile. Many years ago I bought a Ruger Security Six at a giveaway price because half of the rear sight blade was broken off. Who knows how that happened? I've had two revolvers that I carried around the place, an H&R 929 and a Rossi Model 68, both of which had windage-only adjustable rear sights, and both of which I discovered, when I went to use them, had lost their rear sights. Adjustable sights are great for use at the range and usually, but not always offer a better sight picture than fixed sights.

To the OP, if you revolvers aren't collectible, something I found that really help with the older half-moon sights is the application of a Swiss file-

https://i.imgur.com/Z9eXxRTl.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Cehy3Dxl.jpg https://i.imgur.com/CrLYJkol.jpg

This really removes glare from the sight and makes it stand out.

Some time back on another forum people were discussing the perpetual subject of fixed-sight revolvers "shooting left". A sage old CAS competitor and Colt SAA collector suggested that the next time one attended a gun show, to look close at used revolvers with adjustable sights. He allowed that one would find that the vast majority of them are adjusted to the right to compensate for right handed shooters "pushing" the trigger when they shoot. I don't go to many gun shows so I hied off to Gunbroker to look at auctions for revolvers with adjustable sights. By gum, the old codger was right!

https://i.imgur.com/oPfrANRl.jpg https://i.imgur.com/2GUZG2vl.jpg https://i.imgur.com/6vHJnbfl.jpg https://i.imgur.com/jxSwP0ol.jpg https://i.imgur.com/fg5SLX9l.jpg https://i.imgur.com/9HjApALl.jpg https://i.imgur.com/4ruGV7tl.jpg

35W

[StrawHat]

… To the OP, if you revolvers aren't collectible, something I found that really help with the older half-moon sights is the application of a Swiss file-…
35W

A very good observation.

This is a S&W Model 1917 that has had the front sight modified,

309792

309793

This is a S&W Model 1950 Army,

309791

309790

And yes, this is an adjustable sighted revolver, but what good is a front sight if you can not see it? My most recent S&W Model 25-2.

309794

309795

Kevin

[Baltimoreed]

Fixed sight martial revolvers, either military or police, single or double action, are minute of man firearms and not designed for target shooting. But at some point most manufacturers offered them with some kind of adjustable sight system. Target Webleys had a drift rear sight and a different height front sight insert for the lighter .450 ammo. Kings converted a ton of both cf and rf revolvers and autos to beautiful upgraded very accurate target guns. It’s just a matter of making the ammo fit the fixed sights or use Kentucky windage. I personally like half moon front sights and would never file on one. I shoot a bunch of martial revolvers and don’t have a problem with them.

[kerplode]

I can count on zero fingers the number of times in the last 30 years I've actually adjusted sights on a handgun. So, at this point, it's mostly a don't care with a slight preference for fixed sights. Less to go wrong.

[35 Whelen]

I can count on zero fingers the number of times in the last 30 years I've actually adjusted sights on a handgun. So, at this point, it's mostly a don't care with a slight preference for fixed sights. Less to go wrong.

This has been my question to those who insist on adjustable sights; do you really twiddle with the rear sight every time you change loads?

I've learned with my S&W Model 10-X's, which shoot POA with ~158 gr. bullets =<900 fps, that when heavier bullets/loads are used, hold just a little lower to allow for a slightly higher POI. No big deal, really.

35W

[megasupermagnum]

This has been my question to those who insist on adjustable sights; do you really twiddle with the rear sight every time you change loads?

I've learned with my S&W Model 10-X's, which shoot POA with ~158 gr. bullets =<900 fps, that when heavier bullets/loads are used, hold just a little lower to allow for a slightly higher POI. No big deal, really.

35W

Yes, every time. I would never consider using a handgun (or a rifle, or shotgun) for hunting that isn't sighted in for the load. I would never consider hunting with a handgun that couldn't be sighted in, that is unless I happen to find one that shoots to POA with an accurate load. All these years, haven't found one yet.

[racepres]

This has been my question to those who insist on adjustable sights; do you really twiddle with the rear sight every time you change loads?

I've learned with my S&W Model 10-X's, which shoot POA with ~158 gr. bullets =<900 fps, that when heavier bullets/loads are used, hold just a little lower to allow for a slightly higher POI. No big deal, really.

35W
But...But...But... Off a sandbag rest... I expect 1/4 inch Groups!!!!
Nope...Me Neither... I'm in it for the Fun... A "near miss" will Not ruin my day.. Turns out, I have another Shot!!!!
If you cannot deal with adversity... You Loose!!!

[megasupermagnum]

But...But...But... Off a sandbag rest... I expect 1/4 inch Groups!!!!
Nope...Me Neither... I'm in it for the Fun... A "near miss" will Not ruin my day.. Turns out, I have another Shot!!!!
If you cannot deal with adversity... You Loose!!!

That's the difference. There are a lot of people who's more than a day could be ruined. I don't expect perfection, I don't need perfection. I do expect to be proficient with my carry guns to 50 yards, and most fixed sight snubbies wont do it. Put real sights on those same guns, and they do well. I'm not going to carry a handgun that shoots 4" left at 25 yards. I'm not going to hunt with any gun that is 2" off at 50 yards. I'm not going to compete with anything I have to Kentucky windage.

Go shoot, have fun, use whatever makes you happy. Just don't sit there and tell me fixed sights are in any way an advantage. This thread was started asking why fixed sight guns do not shoot as good of groups, or to POI. I explained why. Denying it won't change anything.

[steveu]

I shoot 3.8 grains of be with a swaged 158. Point of aim is point of impact from my S&W 10-6.

[35 Whelen]

Yes, every time. I would never consider using a handgun (or a rifle, or shotgun) for hunting that isn't sighted in for the load. I would never consider hunting with a handgun that couldn't be sighted in, that is unless I happen to find one that shoots to POA with an accurate load. All these years, haven't found one yet.

Yeah I don't know anyone who hunts with a firearm that hasn't been sighted in.

My MO for .38/.357's, .44 Special and 45 Colts has been to load/use a "standard" weight for caliber RN style bullet running 750-800 fps that shoots to the sights at 25 yds. for practice, plinking and small game which is about as far as one would expect to shoot something small. (And FWIW for me it's been pretty rare that a fixed sight revolver hasn't put these standard weight bullets where they're supposed to at 25 yds.) Then a similar or slightly heavier SWC bullet running 200-250 fps faster for hunting deer, hogs and similar size game. From a mathematical standpoint unless one is hunting sandfleas or chiggers there's not enough difference in trajectory of the two different loads to amount to a hill of beans out to 50 yds. with most of the difference being due to added recoil and muzzle rise from the heavier load. I've found my heavier hunting loads typically impact roughly 2" higher than the standard load at 25 yds., a couple of inches high at 50 yds., and pretty much dead on at 75 yds. This is why even with my revolvers with adjustable sights, I never have to mess with the sights.


That's the difference. There are a lot of people who's more than a day could be ruined. I don't expect perfection, I don't need perfection. I do expect to be proficient with my carry guns to 50 yards, and most fixed sight snubbies wont do it. Put real sights on those same guns, and they do well. I'm not going to carry a handgun that shoots 4" left at 25 yards. I'm not going to hunt with any gun that is 2" off at 50 yards. I'm not going to compete with anything I have to Kentucky windage.

Go shoot, have fun, use whatever makes you happy. Just don't sit there and tell me fixed sights are in any way an advantage. This thread was started asking why fixed sight guns do not shoot as good of groups, or to POI. I explained why. Denying it won't change anything.

Agree or not, fixed sights do have some advantages. Probably first and foremost, and as already mentioned, they are more rugged than typical adjustable sights. That's why businesses such as Bowen Classic Arms (https://parts.bowenclassicarms.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3) produce heavy duty replacement sights intended to replace factory sights. Second, probably in an unintended way, they teach shooters to learn to shoot their handguns correctly. Can you imagine the chaos on a firing line full of recruits ot law enforcement officers if they were all trying to "sight in" their service handguns if they had adjustable sights?

Again, nothing against adjustable sights, but they don't make a handgun more accurate, and with a few exceptions, handguns shoot straight, people don't.

35W

[charlie b]

Type of sights don't make a gun accurate or not. They do make the shooter more accurate. It is easier to shoot better with good sights, fixed or adjustable. And, I do insist on adjustable sights if I am going to be shooting small targets at range. For close range adjustable is not a big issue, just use a load that hits near your aimpoint.

And, yes, I do use the adjustable sights on my pistols that have them. Some I use every time I go to the range, mostly adjusting for distance. And on some of my fixed sight guns the sights are permanently 'adjusted' to my load of choice.

[Lance Boyle]

I have a couple fixed sight revolvers but most have adjustables.

I do have to sat I prefer the adjustables for sight picture and that they sit a little taller on the frame.

I don’t do bad with my 31-1 .32 S&W long, it is blued. I just picked up a 64-3 and the stainless fixed sight frame and bare serrated stainless front ramp does not really work easily with my over 50 eyeballs. I am going to black magic marker the front and rear on the 64-3 to try.

[racepres]

I have a couple fixed sight revolvers but most have adjustables.

I do have to sat I prefer the adjustables for sight picture and that they sit a little taller on the frame.

I don’t do bad with my 31-1 .32 S&W long, it is blued. I just picked up a 64-3 and the stainless fixed sight frame and bare serrated stainless front ramp does not really work easily with my over 50 eyeballs. I am going to black magic marker the front and rear on the 64-3 to try.
I am currently having best luck with a bit Older Eyes, by using some wild pink/orange dayglo nail polish, borrowed from my Bitter Half..
Oddly, I cannot discern the Color when sighting... but my eye pickes it up readily!!
Odd Whot??

[MarkP]

I have a couple fixed sight revolvers but most have adjustables.

I do have to sat I prefer the adjustables for sight picture and that they sit a little taller on the frame.

I don’t do bad with my 31-1 .32 S&W long, it is blued. I just picked up a 64-3 and the stainless fixed sight frame and bare serrated stainless front ramp does not really work easily with my over 50 eyeballs. I am going to black magic marker the front and rear on the 64-3 to try.
I bought some S&W 64's that were turn in's from Austrian forestry that were re-imported to the US. Carried alot not shot very often. After filing the blemishes out of the SS and getting consistent brush marks / lines. I masked off the brushed steel and left the top exposed on frame and bbl and blasted with fine sand. Left a nice dark Grey finish. Pretty easy to do and looks good. Mine had no collector value with proof marks stamped in the trigger guard frame. These shoot pretty close to POA with a LEE 105 over 4.6 gr Bullseye. Also have a 2" 64 it shoots about 4" Left at 50'. The NOE 180 gr WFN over Alliant Power Pistol shoots high in my 64's. That is the load I carry when working outside for wild dogs or ?? I got cornered several yrs ago be two wild dogs when I was planting trees. I just had a spade the rear dog retreated then the head dog decided to back down. The next day I had my Redhawk but no dogs. The 64 is a perfect work side arm. Sorry for the off topic rant.

[35 Whelen]

I have a couple fixed sight revolvers but most have adjustables.

I do have to sat I prefer the adjustables for sight picture and that they sit a little taller on the frame. As I mentioned previously I use a Swiss file to groove the rear smooth front sights, which makes a huge difference. What I failed to mention is I afterwards apply cold blue without all the

I don’t do bad with my 31-1 .32 S&W long, it is blued. I just picked up a 64-3 and the stainless fixed sight frame and bare serrated stainless front ramp does not really work easily with my over 50 eyeballs. I am going to black magic marker the front and rear on the 64-3 to try.

No kidding re- the stainless frame or for that matter a shiny blue frame. One solution I've applied is to dab a little flat black model airplane paint around the rear notch. Also, I'd mentioned earlier that I groove the rear of smooth front sights with a Swiss file, what I forgot to mention was I then apply cold blue without all of the polishing steps. Doings so darken the groove and helps the front sights tand out.



I am currently having best luck with a bit Older Eyes, by using some wild pink/orange dayglo nail polish, borrowed from my Bitter Half..
Oddly, I cannot discern the Color when sighting... but my eye pickes it up readily!!
Odd Whot??

I think if I only shot dark target such as at the range, I'd use your solution of bright colors on the front sight. The problem I've found with bright colors and shiny front sights is they tend to wash out in bright sunlight. The down side to dark front sights is they sometimes blend in with dark targets and in low light they're quite difficult to pick up.

35W

[Rapier]

Shoot you defense load in the black dark, make sue it will not flash blind you and smoke obscure the attacker.

[racepres]

No kidding re- the stainless frame or for that matter a shiny blue frame. One solution I've applied is to dab a little flat black model airplane paint around the rear notch. Also, I'd mentioned earlier that I groove the rear of smooth front sights with a Swiss file, what I forgot to mention was I then apply cold blue without all of the polishing steps. Doings so darken the groove and helps the front sights tand out.




I think if I only shot dark target such as at the range, I'd use your solution of bright colors on the front sight. The problem I've found with bright colors and shiny front sights is they tend to wash out in bright sunlight. The down side to dark front sights is they sometimes blend in with dark targets and in low light they're quite difficult to pick up.

35W

Will try the darker lighting conditions...soon..: Note: I only put dayglow color on front ramp...Black out at rear...

[charlie b]

I am another that likes orange sights. The only better alternative I have seen is tritium night sights with the white outlines. Good in dark, good in light. If you can adapt to them, red dots work really well a lot of the time, and green lasers are pretty good as well.

[FergusonTO35]

I have three standard .38 loads: 3.1 grains BE/148 grain Lyman wadcutter, 3 grains Accurate Nitro 100/150 grain Lee SWC, and 3.4 grains BE/Lee 158 grain FP. My S&W 10-5 and 637, Ruger Service Six, and Charter Undercover all shoot the first two dead on. The third is my "outdoorsman" load, the boolits weigh 164 grains with my mold. It shoots about an inch high at 15 yards with my full size revolvers and is my woods carry load. The Charter Undercover is a late model and the front sight is high from the factory, which allows you to file it down to your particular load. Gave all of them some exercise yesterday and they did great!

[Rodfac]

35 W.: Again, nothing against adjustable sights, but they don't make a handgun more accurate, and with a few exceptions, handguns shoot straight, people don't. Well, I don't know about that...I find adj. sights a lot easier to see than the groove/hog wallow and front sight blade of typical fixed sighted revolvers. Attempting to adjust windage on a fixed sighted model is typically a lesson in frustration, IMHO. I've been successful only once when I was able to widen the rear sight notch ten thousandths and that did the job...it also allowed my 76 yo eyes to better see the front sight blade. For the rest, speaking of revolvers only here, it's been, KY windage to one extent or another.

As for elevation, it's much easier, at least if the gun is shooting low. As you can judiciously use a fine cut mill file to shorten the front sight...your groups are too high, well, your SOL. Adj. sights fix all that with a turn or two from a fitted screw driver.

Too, I find the adj. sights on Smiths, Colts, and Rugers of the past half century manuf., to be fairly robust. Personally, I've been thrown from a horse, tumbled down a Colorado mountain scree slope and even dropped a cpl with no adverse affect on the sights. But trying to bend a Ruger Single Six front blade on a Birdshead Baby Vaquero resulted in a frustrating but ultimately successful, attempt to braze it back on. As always, YMMv, Rod

[megasupermagnum]

While you could make a fixed sight accurate, that's not really what we are comparing here. We are talking about small revolvers, which "fixed" almost always means their "rear sight" is just a groove in the frame.

I'm not sure what else to say. A sight like that is not going to be as accurate as a proper rear sight. The handgun would shoot just as good as anything else in a ransom rest. From a shooter he wont be. The human eye is simply not capable of dealing with such a tiny window, odd rounded angles, and a shiny background (both stainless or blued). I'm sure some people are better than others, but the fact remains, that a proper rear sight, which is almost always adjustable, with a matte surface is easier to see. There is no mystery what is going on here. You can blame the shooter all you want, but that is why the OP is not seeing as good of groups with the fixed sight revolvers.

I have not seen a police officer with a fixed sight revolver ever. I've never seen one practicing with a fixed sight revolver. They almost universally use semi-autos now, and I can't think of any semi-auto that would be used that has fixed sights. I would have to assume most police use a glock 19 or 22, both of which come with decent adjustable sights.

Even if I ever broke my rear sight, which I've not in all these years of carrying handguns, I really doubt I would be worse off than having had fixed sights in the first place.

[FergusonTO35]

I strongly prefer adjustable or at least replaceable sights. That said, all my .38's have fixed sights and I shoot them as well as my other handguns - which is nothing to boast about. One thing nice about adjustable sights is you can adjust them to compensate for your own nuances and imperfections. I tend to shoot bottom feeders slightly left, and have come to just accept this fact. By drifting the sight a bit to the right I can compensate for that tendency.

[rintinglen]

The fact that law enforcement now carries fixed sight pistols is irrelevant. I haven't seen an officer respond to a call on horseback in all my years, save on TV. That doesn't mean no one ever did. Those of us old enough to remember the 60's & 70's know that hundreds of thousands of Law enforcement officers carried fixed sight revolvers. Larger departments would have an armorer to "adjust" the sights through the judicious use of a lead bar so that they would shoot to point of aim at 25 yards with the standard department approved ammunition. Provided the barrel wasn't bent banging some unruly suspect over the head, that gun stayed sighted in with that ammo for the rest of the Officer's career.

I have personally repaired two rear sight blades on service revolvers, one Ruger Security Six and one Model 15. LAPD did about a dozen a year for a while, or so I was told, though that number decreased when security holsters from Safariland and Bianchi replaced the older Audley-type push button clamshell rigs. The Ruger was easy, the S&W is a pain in the but involving drilling out the crimp on the left side, installing the new blade and windage screw, staking the windage screw. Fixed sights are more durable.

Now I can not dispute the better sight picture given by most adjustable sights, nor can I defend the fixed sight when it comes to ease of adjustment. All my regular range toys have adjustable sights, as do my hunting revolvers. Most of my carry guns do not.

[FergusonTO35]

When I was a kid all the coppers carried big S&W .357's with coke bottle grips and adjustable sights, even though issue ammo was .38 Special usually. I think that was more of a Dirty Harry effect than anything else, the sight of a big intimidating magnum is more likely to make a perp cooperate than a little Police Positive Special or pencil barrel model 10.

[ebb]

Well I went to the eye doctor and he told me it wasn't my reloading technique that was my shooting problems. I have cataracts but the right eye is real bad and had gotten way worse since my last check up. I found out for myself when he covered my left eye and I could barely see with only my right.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I have an older SP 101 with fixed sights that does fine at combat distance. Used to have a nice 3" model 65 that was a good shooter too. Put up an IDPA or IPSC target and have at it.

[deces]

Maybe give this target a try.
311360

[StrawHat]

I prefer this training target.

311361

Kevin

[Texas by God]

That one works surprisingly well, Strawhat.[emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TNsailorman]

May not tell you a lot but at least it tells the truth. I at one time, taught marksmanship along with my Marine brother (who had got back from Vietnam a few years earlier) to young children after a local child accidentally shot and killed a playmate with a pistol they found loaded in a dresser drawer. We got a teaching course from Daisey and also the local Ruritan Club bought 4 of Daisey's "skill" air guns (rifles without sight) to be used to teach both youngsters and adults how to hit targets tossed up into the air. We taught using regular air gun 10 ft targets(memory here) at first. My brother was really good at teaching trigger control and also how to annalize and correct for misses. But the course was really heavy on safety. To the point that we put red tape on the muzzle end of the barrel, teaching them that this was the dangerous end and to never point it at anything they did not intend to shoot. Teaching children to put a loaded gun down and notify a parent and we also taught them how to unload different guns by taking several guns to class and using dummy rounds for classs demonstration and the kids actual use. Those kids minds were like sponges, tell them one time and they usually could repeat what you had told them on the first try. A couple of the older boys and girls got pretty good at hitting tennis balls thrown into the air, and that was without sights remember. One of the girls got quite good at both target shooting and also at the tossed tennis balls. Some of the women in the community wanted us to teach a course for them on how firearms were loaded , and also more importantly, how they could be safely unloaded. But then the local club got cold feet and stopped our courses for liability reasons. I have always had a soft spot in my heart for Daisey as they went way beyond what we expected in helping us with training material free but also giving us those rifles almost free. This was back in the 70's and that Ruritan Club has slowly went out of busines as the older members died and the younger member of the community just were not interested in doing any community service. A shame but that is the world we live in these days. It closed sometime in the 80's if my memory is correct. james

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Years ago i took the NRA small bore instructor certification course. I really enjoyed teaching the Y camp kids about gun safety and marksmanship. Unfortunately the camp went all woke. The names of the cabins had been after early explorers now changed to non racist, non offensive names. There is also a cabin for the gender confused. These jack___ are ruining the Republic bit by bit.

[racepres]

May not tell you a lot but at least it tells the truth. I at one time, taught marksmanship along with my Marine brother (who had got back from Vietnam a few years earlier) to young children after a local child accidentally shot and killed a playmate with a pistol they found loaded in a dresser drawer. We got a teaching course from Daisey and also the local Ruritan Club bought 4 of Daisey's "skill" air guns (rifles without sight) to be used to teach both youngsters and adults how to hit targets tossed up into the air. We taught using regular air gun 10 ft targets(memory here) at first. My brother was really good at teaching trigger control and also how to annalize and correct for misses. But the course was really heavy on safety. To the point that we put red tape on the muzzle end of the barrel, teaching them that this was the dangerous end and to never point it at anything they did not intend to shoot. Teaching children to put a loaded gun down and notify a parent and we also taught them how to unload different guns by taking several guns to class and using dummy rounds for classs demonstration and the kids actual use. Those kids minds were like sponges, tell them one time and they usually could repeat what you had told them on the first try. A couple of the older boys and girls got pretty good at hitting tennis balls thrown into the air, and that was without sights remember. One of the girls got quite good at both target shooting and also at the tossed tennis balls. Some of the women in the community wanted us to teach a course for them on how firearms were loaded , and also more importantly, how they could be safely unloaded. But then the local club got cold feet and stopped our courses for liability reasons. I have always had a soft spot in my heart for Daisey as they went way beyond what we expected in helping us with training material free but also giving us those rifles almost free. This was back in the 70's and that Ruritan Club has slowly went out of busines as the older members died and the younger member of the community just were not interested in doing any community service. A shame but that is the world we live in these days. It closed sometime in the 80's if my memory is correct. james

I bought a number of copies of NRA's Eddie Eagle for the local school when my youngest attended, and he related to me how Ignorant the other kids seemed.. Well Received ATT, They used them until??? IDK...surely not anymore!!

[Tokarev]

Did anybody mention bullet sizing yet? If it is groups that ebb is worried about, rather than POA, then slugging the bore and properly sizing bullets could very well help reduce the groups. Also, different guns like different sorts of lubes.