Are these valid rifles?

[KenH]

Hello ya'll. Doing my usual stumbling around the internet today and found these two rifles up for sale. One is Sitting Bull's 1866 and other says to be Custer's rifle. Looking at the price at this point in the auction, what are the odds these actually belonged to Sitting Bull and Custer? (darn, those are long links, sorry about that)
https://www.icollector.com/General-George-Custer-s-Remington-Rider-Big-50-No-1-Sporting-Rifle-50-70-Cal-S-N-10509_i47492021?utm_source=sendinblue&utm_campaign=Little%20Bighorn%20Firearms%20%20Arti facts%20Collectibles&utm_medium=email

https://www.icollector.com/Sitting-Bull-s-1866-Winchester-SRC-S-N-134564_i47492020?utm_source=sendinblue&utm_campaign=Little%20Bighorn%20Firearms%20%20Arti facts%20Collectibles&utm_medium=email

[hoodat]

WOW!! I've got one of Sitting Bull's OTHER rifles..!! I wonder how many there are??!! jd

[Winger Ed.]

Could be.
But I don't know you could verify a gun from back then as to who carried it, or how it came into someone's possession a few years later.

The Little Big Horn battle field wasn't really secured by the national parks service until the 50-60s or something.
You could still find small artifacts there, but most of the weapons and big things were gone shortly after the battle.

Horse bones, shell cases, buttons, etc. could still be found.
But something like a pistol or battle ax, nah--- those would have been gone in a day or two, and untraceable.
If there wasn't Army records of that rifle being issued to Gen. Custer by serial number--
there's no way to really prove he had that exact one there.

If those weapons aren't in sad condition, I'd be doubly suspect.
It's hard to keep one nice looking now, but back then in the wilderness-- it'd be almost impossible.

[Handloader109]

BS on them. Custers gun maybe, but the current price shows not many believe either story....

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

[GregLaROCHE]

Probably just the same make and model. It will be interesting to see how much they sell for.

[Baltimoreed]

Unprovable without documentation and no possible way to document. No way would I invest a dime. There’s no sn evidence of either of the guns used by Alvin York afaik and that is relatively recent history.

[jonp]

Darn, i have Custers rifle made into a lamp right here!

Sitting Bulls rifle is a 1876 in 45/75 WCF. Last time it changed hands it went for $60,000 so id have to cast doubt on these

[WRideout]

I suspect that the general was armed with a revolver, and a saber.

Wayne

[Winger Ed.]

Unprovable without documentation and no possible way to document. No way would I invest a dime. There’s no sn evidence of either of the guns used by Alvin York afaik and that is relatively recent history.

He even said himself he had a few rifles. If something happened to one,
or it jammed from mud, he'd drop it and pick up another one from somebody that 'didn't need theirs any more'.
If one was really valuable, it'd be traceable by serial number, and the last one he carried.
Back then, they just weren't as careful with serial numbers, and they weren't as important to them as we are now.

On the battle field at the time,
there was no reason to enshrine his well used and beat up rifle. He was just another trooper doing his job.

Most of them didn't give a flip about historical importance.
When you're busy making history--- ya don't really think about it while it's happening.
They just didn't want to get killed, and be able to go home as soon as they could.

[stubshaft]

Many years ago, I was in Las Vegas and attended a Historical Arms show there. I was able to handle a Holland & Holland Maharaja grade double rifle and a host of other absolutely breathtaking firearms. I distinctly remember seeing what looked like a pile of wood and rust that barely resembled a firearm. The selling price was well in excess of $10,000.00 and it was touted as being a verified trapdoor from the battle of the Little Bighorn!

I cannot see either of those rifles (with providence of the actual owners) being sold for such a paltry price.

[hoodat]

I've got Jesse James pocket pistol I could cut loose of for the right price. ;) jd

[Winger Ed.]

I suspect that the general was armed with a revolver, and a saber.

Probably so.
The saber might have been recovered, and it'd be pretty easy to identify and authenticate.
If his pistol was just Army issue and not some presentation piece-- it's gone.

After the battle, the bodies were stripped of everything. Clothes, boots, everything.
All the Indians in the region that didn't make it to Canada were later hunted down and killed out right,
or rounded up and starved to death the next Winter.
They didn't have a written language, there would be no documentation of who was what weapon's previous owner.
If a rifle didn't have "US" or "USA" branded on the stock, you couldn't even know if it Army issue.

[M-Tecs]

https://www.remingtonsociety.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26347

Most information I've seen indicated Custer had a Rolling Block Sporting Rifle, not a military. But it's also well known that his widow did a pretty good job supporting herself after his death selling all sorts of firearms and memorabilia with "letters of authenticity" stating they were owned by her late husband.
Without extremely good provenance it's best to be very skeptical of anything attributed to being owned by Custer. He's likely the most famous name to own more than he ever had.
Top

[Gewehr-Guy]

I have a wonderful book "Exploring with Custer,the 1874 Black Hills Expedition", by Earnest Grafe and Paul Horsted. On page xii is a famous photo of Custer,Pvt.John Burkman, and scouts Bloody Knife, Goose, and Little Sioux. The rolling block pictured appears to have the "rough and ready" type rear folding sight mounted right up against the reciever. The auction rifle looks to have a different style sight mounted more forward.

Page 255 has the photo of Custer and his grizzly bear, but I can't see the sight in that photo. I wonder if these are Wendell Grangard's collection? He published a book on the guns used in the battle.

[MaLar]

I would think old Georges rifle went home with someone else that day.

[FISH4BUGS]

You must be kidding us, right?
For someone to claim that without backing it up with foolproof provenance, makes me want to turn him in for attempted fraud.
Reminds me of Elizabeth Warren...."....my mother always told us we were Native Americans".....
Buy the gun....not the story.

[waksupi]

There used to be a gun shop locally who sold dozens of guns that belonged to Billy the Kid and Jesse James, along with other notable characters.

Hey, that's what the sign said!

I personally have the original Pakistani telemarketer for sale for only one million bucks. Don't try to low ball me, I know what I've got!

[eastbank]

jessie james,s mother sold old junk revolvers she bought for 2-3 bucks and sold them for 25.00 to people who came to view his grave.

[Winger Ed.]

There used to be a gun shop locally who sold dozens of guns that belonged to Billy the Kid and Jesse James, along with other notable characters.

I met a guy several years back that gathered WWI & WWII rifles and bayonets. When he'd accumulated several,
he'd get a gun show table and sell them.
They all had a great historical story of where and what battle they came from them that 'enhanced' their value.

[fatnhappy]

I have General Washington's personal winchester model 70. It's in .30-06 of course. Pictures of him carrying it are available on request.

Please don't smudge the ink on my provenance documents.

[KenH]

Thanks for all the comments - they all are in agreement with my thoughts. I saw that, and thought I'd toss it out, more to confirm my thinking.

[Winger Ed.]

There's all sorts of fakery out there, especially with antique guns.
A Pawn Stars episode had a guy selling an antique Navy Colt he'd 'invested' some really big bucks in.

Rick's expert showed him-- 'See how this part is machined, how deep these letters and numbers are, blah, blah, blah',,,,
"On the originals--------- they were, blah, blah, blah"......
Yours is a reproduction, cleverly 'aged',,,,,, and is worth about $150. in this condition".

The guy left with, "My wife is going to kill me"....

[waksupi]

There's all sorts of fakery out there, especially with antique guns.
A Pawn Stars episode had a guy selling an antique Navy Colt he'd 'invested' some really big bucks in.

Rick's expert showed him-- 'See how this part is machined, how deep these letters and numbers are, blah, blah, blah',,,,
"On the originals--------- they were, blah, blah, blah"......
Yours is a reproduction, cleverly 'aged',,,,,, and is worth about $150. in this condition".

The guy left with, "My wife is going to kill me"....

I've also seen his "Expert" way off base on what he was saying about a firearm.

[farmbif]

whatever is for sale is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I once had a chance top buy Robert e lee's revolver, ohh yeah, they only wanted $20,000 and I donor even remember what it was only the price. they even had a letter signed by some "expert" that was no longer alive. go figure? I dont think I missed out on anything even if I could have afforded it. oh they also had pictures of Abe Lincoln for only $1000 each

[Winger Ed.]

I've also seen his "Expert" way off base on what he was saying about a firearm.

Yeah. There's been a couple of those shows where an 'expert' ended up with egg on their face.
Not to mention the storage war shows where the good stuff was actually planted.

I'd be more trusting for an 'expert' to spot a fake than I would be for them to authenticate
something historical of questionable lineage.

[.45Cole]

$8k for Custer's rifle, we only care to put up 1 pic. I've seen auctions where they're selling ratchets by the single and each has like 4 pics. Looking at hte Remington it's really plane jane - the sights are not what I would expect somebody who's trying to live larger than life to have. I'd also expect the rifle to have blood rust on it.

As for a 66 for sitting bull, no way. Those things are boat anchors.

[georgerkahn]

I have General Washington's personal winchester model 70. It's in .30-06 of course. Pictures of him carrying it are available on request.

Please don't smudge the ink on my provenance documents.

Yes -- to authenticate this I've seen the photo with Brian Williams sitting next to him!

[KenH]

Here are a couple of documents I missed other day. This is for Custer's rifle
https://gunsofhistoryauction.com/uploads/pdfs/10509_RemingtonRiderRifleBIG50_%281%29.pdf

and here for Sitting Bull's rifle:
https://gunsofhistoryauction.com/uploads/pdfs/134564_1866WinchesterSRC.pdf

Again, no way to tell if they're real or not, but sure does read good.

update: Custer's rifle just sold for $47,500 and there is an 18% premium on top of that.

[KenH]

Well, it looks like the Custer's rifle sold, but Sitting Bull's rifle didn't sell due to low price. Did ya'll look at the PDF file for each rifle? Has a really good "story" with it. The bidder for Custer's rifle must have thought it was a valid rifle at $47,500 + the fees making it over $56,000 total price. and that's not counting sales taxes.

[William Yanda]

I have General Washington's personal winchester model 70. It's in .30-06 of course. Pictures of him carrying it are available on request.

fatnhappy
You forgot the purple font, I fixed it.