A Shotgun is my recommended "only" homestead gun.

[Adam Helmer]

As a retired federal lawman, I learned greater respect for the shotgun. For 10 years I instructed and qualified 100+/- agents twice a year on handguns and the shotgun. In my later years before retirement, my agency added the H&K, MP-5 9mm submachine gun to our arms inventory. All the new agents salivated over the MP-5. On the range at 25 yards, I showed them how a 12 gauge stoked with 5 rounds of #4 Buckshot exceeded a 30-round mag of 9mm on our B-27 target.

Now retired to my rural farm, I am often asked by new residents from urban areas, about a recommended farm gun? Since most of these folks never fired any gun before, I offer handgun and shotgun instruction and lean to a shotgun for their first gun. Most folks opt for a pump 20 gauge, with the 12 gauge coming in second.

The anti-gun folks lack gun savvy! That is a Very Good Thing! If they had any clue, they would ban shotguns FAR ahead of any "nasty", "ugly" assault weapon! CLUELESS is sometimes good. LOL.

For NEW country residents, lacking any firearms skills, the shotgun is the best option for their first gun living in the country for 2 or 4 legged critters on their homestead.

Adam

[BLAHUT]

Agree, a shot gun with shot or buck is great for close work on two or for legged critters, I still prefer my long gun, would rather deal with a threat at 400 yds than 4 yds.

[Winger Ed.]

I've known people from Europe that are perfectly comfortable with their Police carrying sub-machine guns,
But to see them with our common 12 ga. riot guns is just terrifying.

I also figure if they're asking me for advice, they may not be the brightest candle in the Y2K kit to start with.
However:
When people that aren't really shooters ask me to recommend a home defense weapon- I always tell them
to look at getting a cheap, Walmart 12ga. pump shotgun.
1. It's easy and simple to use.
2. Being big and long--- You're less likely to shoot yourself handling it than a pistol.
3. Like the old stage coach robbers used to say,
"The bigger of a gun you stick under someone's nose, the less likely you'll need to use it".*****
4. The sight and sound of one and hearing it pump & chamber a shell is VERY intimidating.
5. You don't need to find your glasses first to hit something with it.

6. If you have to surrender it to the Police, depending on where you live, it might be the hassle of your life to get it back.
Just let it go..... It isn't a $10,000. antique Holland and Holland or something...All you have lost is $200. Go buy another one.

7. Same thing with a carry gun. Get something used, that works, and is dependable from a pawn shop.
If you have to surrender it for any reason, you won't have to give up your $5,000. tricked out Colt or Les Baer.

******
I stress that most of all. You never want to shoot someone. I tell people that it ain't like TV.
If you shoot someone-- no matter how justified it was, and even if that person needed killing--
Life as you know it, is over.

[Adam Helmer]

Agree, a shot gun with shot or buck is great for close work on two or for legged critters, I still prefer my long gun, would rather deal with a threat at 400 yds than 4 yds.

BLAHUT,

ROGER THAT! I think our most urgent need is to repel a home invasion in the county where ONLY one state trooper is on duty for the entire county. My only call ever resulted in the dispatcher advising, "It will be about an hour until the trooper arrives."

My friendly neighbors want, and need, caring advice. All connected well to a 20 gauge, loaded right, for various needs. In this most rural of 67 counties in PA, the new "Flatlanders" finally understood cops are only minutes, Or HOURS, away when SECONDS count!

Shotguns cover a multitude of issues: shooter inexperience, multiple alleged violators, the need for immediate response, and no need for exact aiming. Merely point and click, the ultimate interface with bad situations. I would say 90% of my students opt for a shotgun. I support their choice.

Adam

[HWooldridge]

I generally make a similar, rhetorical remark to my wife after that type of news reporting is made public...why wasn't a shotgun used with buckshot?

The Germans in WW1 weren't concerned about any particular weapon, until we hauled out '97 Winchester pumps - then it was "unprofessional and unfair", deserving international condemnation. Machine guns and poison gas were everywhere - but everyone was worked up about the lowly shotgun.

[Winger Ed.]

I generally make a similar, rhetorical remark to my wife after that type of news reporting is made public...why wasn't a shotgun used with buckshot?.

I've been asked what's the big deal with buckshot?

I tell 'em, 'Think about it-- a .38Special shoots one 36 caliber bullet. A common 2 3/4" 12ga. buckshot load is nine 33 caliber balls.
They are coming out faster than the .38 bullet.
A 12ga buckshot shell is not too far away from shooting nine .357Magnum shots at once,
and they hit in a pattern about the size of a dinner plate'.

[Char-Gar]

Wise, thoughtful and truthful words. The "gun that won the West", was not a Winchester rifle or a Colt pistol, it was the shotgun.

[Char-Gar]

I have a friend who is now a retired DEA Agent stationed on the New Mexico/Mexico border. He related to me the story of a smuggler who climbed a tree to hide. He was discovered by the Border Patrol and when he arrived they were yelling at the guy to come down with no results. My friend got out of his vehicle, took his pump shotgun and stood under the tree. He racked the pump and put a shell in the chamber without saying a word. The guy came down out of the tree as fast as he could. He told me, some people understand English and some people understand Spanish, but everybody underatands Shotgun. It is indeed the universal language.

[HWooldridge]

I've been asked what's the big deal with buckshot?

I tell 'em, 'Think about it-- a .38Special shoots one 36 caliber bullet. A common 2 3/4" 12ga. buckshot load is nine 33 caliber balls.
They are coming out faster than the .38 bullet.
A 12ga buckshot shell is not too far away from shooting nine .357Magnum shots at once,
and they hit in a pattern about the size of a dinner plate'.

My great-uncle always opted for #1 because the diameter only dropped to .30 caliber but the pellet count in a standard 12 ga shell went up to 16. Personally, I like #4 for general use but find it fails in the penetration department on anything except light skinned targets - would be fine on a bad guy in jeans and a shirt; won't do as well with a barrier separating the shooter and shootee.

[country gent]

THE shot gun is a universal tool that can handle many different situations depending on the loads, Lighter bird shot for most hunting and pests, heavy buck shot for bigger animals and protection, slugs for big game. Easy to operate, no real sights to align point and shoot, easier to defend in court, and lower risk of unintended damage do to its limited range.
Almost anyone on the jury can relate to the shotgun as "Uncle Johns" or grandpas deer rabbit duck gun.

I normally recommend the shot gun for home and property defense. Single shot,double barrel, pump,or auto the shot gun is "understood".

A quick modification I do is to polish the crown mirror bright with a brass ball and flannel patch. When done its an optic illusion your looking into the bore making it look huge.

My preferred load in 12 gauge is the #4 buckshot load with 18 pellets. Second is the 00 buck with 11 pellets.

Gettin the new comer to understand that at most room distances is inkly going to be a small pattern around 2" at most is hard

[stubshaft]

I agree wholeheartedly with using a shotgun for defense. The easiest way to determine spread is to imagine 1" for every yard from the muzzle, 10 yards = 10".

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Interesting discussion, but not a new one. I also have a 12 Ga. pump in my everyday/home defense arsenal and loaded with No.1 Buck, which has been a choice for many years. Oh--and it's a 3" magnum, so there's also a few more buck shot for that reason, being a bit longer. Just for interest, and perhaps laughs, although I own several pumps of various brands, the one I've got handy was made by the Shan Dong Machine Works No. 1, in China, and cost around $125. So, if Wal-Mart cheap is good, this has to be better! It's solid steel, built like a tank, and a out and out copy of the Ithaca Mod. 37.

But, let's consider a few other points. First, one is best armed with that in which they have the most confidence. Be that rifle, pistol, or shotgun, one must build that confidence with handling and practice. The novice who picks up a pump shotgun "for real" and finds himself unable to operate it because he has to release the slide lock or doesn't know which way the push safety button must be pushed in order to be able to fire is in dire straits.

The shotgun is a good weapon to perhaps 25 yards, but somewhere between that distance and 40 yards looses a lot of hit probability with buckshot as the pattern opens. On the other hand, a proficient handgunner will score reliable hits at 50 yards, and most weekend riflemen practice at 100 yards. I've seen some nice accuracy with 12 Ga. slugs at 100 yards, but not too many keep their home defense shotgun loaded with slugs, as that defeats the short range aspect of lots of buckshot.

Choke is also a consideration that will effect range and pattern. Just a few months ago I was showing a visitor an actual Ithaca Mod. 37 with a 30 inch barrel dating back to perhaps the 1930s. It is exceptionally smooth, and I said that I'd keep it in the gunlocker if the barrel wasn't so long. The visitor, knowing a bit about guns himself, being a CAS shooter with shotgun as part of the match drill, said, "Well, you've got a pipe cutter in your toolbox, don't you? Just clamp it on there and make it the length you want." Being kind of slow witted that day I expressed my horror at shortening this very fine bird gun, but couldn't immediately come up with a reply. Later it hit me, of course, that I'd be cutting off the choked part of the barrel. So, another thing to consider when thinking about having a shotgun as your primary defense is barrel length.

Shorter is probably better, but if the need arises to use it inside a building even a short barrel can be a hindrance by bumping into objects such a furniture and also giving an intruder something to grab and attempt to disarm you. Imagine this: You hear something bumping around in your living room in the middle of the night. You get out of bed and arm yourself with your trusty riot gun. On the way to the living room, as you pass by the bathroom or a blind corner, a hairy arm reaches out of the gloomy semi-darkness and grabs the barrel of your shotgun, pushes it up and away from you. If you don't react immediately with
a counter measure such as stepping toward the intruder and rotating the butt of the shogun upward in a butt stroke you will shortly lose possession of the weapon. You may not have the strength to disable the intruder, especially if you're elderly, sick, a diminutive female, etc. Also, don't forget that you're dealing with a loaded shotgun, and that somewhere in the struggle the muzzle will likely be pointed at you-- especially dangerous if you took the safety off.

I'm not at all knocking having a shotgun as a primary home defense weapon, just (hopefully) making some points for consideration. It's my observation that most home shooting incidents are with a handgun, and I believe that they are chosen for portability, close range defense, better retention, and now days...easier to prevent access by the kids.

So, if you carefully read the first paragraph, I said that my Chinese 12 Ga. pump is "a" choice, but it is not necessarily "the" choice. I've got a 1911 by the bed for inside the house, and if the problem is outside the house I'm much more likely to pick up my M1 Carbine. Many shots, low recoil, not overly long. But, given the time to select and certain circumstances I'd not feel poorly armed with the shotgun.

DG

309348 309349 309350

[poppy42]

Agree, a shot gun with shot or buck is great for close work on two or for legged critters, I still prefer my long gun, would rather deal with a threat at 400 yds than 4 yds.
Ah try explaining how you felt you were in danger of serious bodily harm or death from a 400 yards away threat. Assuming you’re not talking about a bear or a moose but a two legged threat.

[Adam Helmer]

My neighbors are looking for a good homestead gun. They have no desire to become handgun proficient. Just like me, they all have resident dogs inside their homes as a first alert. I also have a hostile mother-in-law, in case of need. LOL.

My 12 gauge #4 Buckshot loads have 27 balls of .25 caliber. I have a M1911 on the night stand.

Adam

[Der Gebirgsjager]

If I was a bad guy the mother-in-law would be enough to make me look for another target!

DG

[Mk42gunner]

I'll agree that a pump shotgun is a good choice, but it does take a bit of practice to work one smoothly. I cannot count the number of times I have seen people (both sailors and LEO) on my range causing themselves problems by short stroking the fore end.

I have sneaking suspicion that a gas operated semi auto may be a better choice. I've seen way to many failures of a recoil operated gun caused by either a loose hold or lack of weight in the shooter to blankly recommend a recoil operated gun.

Robert

[Winger Ed.]

If I was a bad guy the mother-in-law would be enough to make me look for another target!

DG

That's worse than throwing a cat on someone.

[txbirdman]

I have an old 12 ga Savage tucked away that’s had the barrel cut to 18 1/2” and been retreaded for screw in choke tubes. I keep the mag tube full but the chamber empty with the trigger pulled so I don’t have to fumble for a button in order to rack the slide. One issue is that it takes 2 hands to operate a pump gun effectively. I also have an 1100 Remington 12 ga with a 20” barrel in my bedroom. Once loaded I can operate the 1100 with one hand if necessary

[HWooldridge]

I have a double barrel 12 ga behind the door - no shucking to worry about. 26” barrels, both full choke.

[armoredman]

Disregard

[BLAHUT]

Ah try explaining how you felt you were in danger of serious bodily harm or death from a 400 yards away threat. Assuming you’re not talking about a bear or a moose but a two legged threat.

You missed the entire point, change that to 40 yards and ask the same question, I stand by what i said, shotgun is great for close, now step back and what ??

[M-Tecs]

Ah try explaining how you felt you were in danger of serious bodily harm or death from a 400 yards away threat. Assuming you’re not talking about a bear or a moose but a two legged threat.

A friend of mine was in his house when 3 guys opened up on his house from about two hundred yards. He hid in the basement and called the cops. They were later apprehended. Turns out they had the wrong address. They were after the crackhead on the other side of the road for a drug deal gone bad.

Years ago a kid started sniping cars from an interstate overpass with a 22. Lot of cars hit mostly in the windshield. I passed under the overpass as he was walking up to the overpass. I had my varmint rifle with me. Had I been about a minute or two later chances are good he would have died that day. Turns out no one was serious injured and the 15 year surrender when the cops shown up. He had written a suicide note but lost his nerve with the cops showed. Like most thing there is no one size fits all answer.

My property is larger than a shotgun with buckshot can cover so a shotgun is not my first choice.

When clearing a house long-guns are easier to disarm the untrained. Same for having them handy but out of reach of visiting children. That being said the shotgun is very effective under the right circumstances. It may be the best choice for some and not so much for others.

[poppy42]

You missed the entire point, change that to 40 yards and ask the same question, I stand by what i said, shotgun is great for close, now step back and what ??
Proving an imminent threat of severe bodily harm at 40 yards could still leave you in quite a mess. I understand your position not saying I disagree with it. Just saying there are other options. A lot of people consider a shotgun strictly a close quarters weapon. It doesn’t necessarily have to be. I’ve hunted blackbear with a 12 gauge slug gun out past 50 yards. No problem hitting my target. Not saying it’s perfect just saying it’s not something limited to strictly 10 yards. Personally I prefer both options. But that’s just me to each his own

[dverna]

God has three entities (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) and I figured I was best prepared with three options.

Shotgun, pistol and AR15. If I lived in the city, the AR15 would not be the choice....maybe a pistol caliber carbine.

One suggestion is to use "low recoil" 12 ga loads. IMO making repeat shots quickly trumps the added payload and velocity of the 3" mag shells.

[GhostHawk]

I agree with Don Verna. My 12 ga buckshot loads are more tactical loads. Lower speed, lower recoil, 9 pellets of #1 buck (30 caliber) with cornmeal filler and an overshot card.

Inside the house my 12 ga 879 wingmaster is loaded with 5 rounds of 7.5 birdshot. At close range it is just as deadly and has the additional benifet of being extremely unlikely that a pellet will penitrate 2 layers of 5/6ths sheet rock over plaster and lathe. Really prefer not to injure or kill someone I am trying to protect.

I keep it fully loaded, with one in the chamber, but the action cocked half open. Slam it forward, click off the trigger safety and it is ready to rock.
But because the bolt is back, shell is not in battery it can not possibly fire by accident. Takes 3 deliberat actions to make it able to fire. Close bolt, remove safety, pull trigger.

Falling over won't do it ever, nor beating on it with a sledge or most any other method. It is as safe as I can make it and still have it into action in a second.
So that is my choice. Your mileage may vary.

As to shooting them at 400 yards, while I accept there is something gratifying about this. I think if you actually did you would find yourself in prison for many years.

Good enough reason for me not to.

Last, I found on Amazon some solar LED lights designed for outside. They have 3 modes of lighting. One is dim light until motion detected then the light goes bright.

I have one in my south window next to the kitchen. If it see's motion the bright light comes on for 30 seconds. So if I am in doubt, I can stay hidden in the hallway to the bedroom. Anyone walking anywhere near is going to light it up. Bright enough that it will dazzle for a few seconds. So my target is brightly lit, I am hidden in shadow.

3/4 of the year they keep themselves charged. Winter time we don't get enough sun to keep them charged. But 3 screws and inside is an 18650 3000mah battery in a battery box. I have lots of 18650 batterys, swap in a charged one, and charge the flat one. Good for another 3-4 weeks.

[dverna]

There may come a time when eliminating a threat at longer range is "advisable". I am talking about SHTF stuff when there is no rule of law, and those left are struggling to survive. If your tribe has been attacked, and the attackers retreated and come back....well...not much to negotiate. Or you know a band has targeted you. Read the book One Second After.

[GregLaROCHE]

I have to agree that a shotgun is first go to for self/home defense. As we get older and in the dark, a 30 round magazine is worthless if you can’t hit the target with it.

[HWooldridge]

I agree with Don Verna. My 12 ga buckshot loads are more tactical loads. Lower speed, lower recoil, 9 pellets of #1 buck (30 caliber) with cornmeal filler and an overshot card.

Inside the house my 12 ga 879 wingmaster is loaded with 5 rounds of 7.5 birdshot. At close range it is just as deadly and has the additional benifet of being extremely unlikely that a pellet will penitrate 2 layers of 5/6ths sheet rock over plaster and lathe.

I've killed quite a few hogs under 10 yards with a head shot, using field loads with 7-1/2 shot in a 12 ga. The entire charge will stay inside their skull and the shock kills them immediately. My son split a skull once to see where the shot went; the entire charge was scattered from the entrance wound to the back side, but nothing exited. We were not hunting hogs with birdshot - they were simply opportunity kills, either in a trap or caught by dogs.

[atr]

I agree !
up at my cabin I have a 20Gage X 3"chamber bolt action which does it all!

[Kosh75287]

I'm not new to most firearm types, so the pump-action doesn't offer much from a safety stand point. IF I decide to invest in a "social shotgun" again, it'll be a semi-auto. In addition to tempering the recoil of the 12 gauge, it gives me a faster follow-up shot in situations in which fractions of a second may be critical.
While the "tactical" semi-auto shotgun platforms are plentiful, they are also expensive. Aftermarket optimizers (extended magazines, ghost-ring sights) seem plentiful for a narrow range of shotgun brands and are not cheap on their own. I am disappointed, but not deterred by this.
As it stands, my bedside weapons are two highly protective and beloved dogs, and a Mini-14, my 1911A1, and my P-35 (wife's side). They who enter uninvited will surely depart, resembling a sieve.

[Duckiller]

I would question if a semi-auto shotgun gives a faster second shot over a pump gun. If you are used to them and experienced I believe a pump gun is faster.

[pietro]

.

My Mossy hangs muzzle down from some paracord on a door hook, ready to go.

On my property, long range is 50yds outside, 10' indoors - which is where/when I feel threatened. (YMMV)

Some jerk, just cutting through my back yard, isn't IMO an imminent threat to my life.

IME, law enforcement, and most judges, take a dim view of someone who uses a firearm on someone stealing some yard equipment


https://i.imgur.com/dAy7EGTl.jpg

[poppy42]

I would question if a semi-auto shotgun gives a faster second shot over a pump gun. If you are used to them and experienced I believe a pump gun is faster.

Don’t know about today, semi autos have come a long way. But I can attest to the fact that I once won $100 off of a loud mouth many years ago who bet me that there was no way I could cycle a pump and keep a second shot on target anywhere is close to what he could do with a semi auto. I beat him twice! once with a 500 Mossberg and once with an 870 Remington. I seriously doubt I could pull off the same feet today as I’m about 35 years older and a lot less nimble.

[Kosh75287]

I would question if a semi-auto shotgun gives a faster second shot over a pump gun. If you are used to them and experienced I believe a pump gun is faster.

I am neither.
And I'm not Tom Knapp, nor Kenneth Apestrand, nor Jerry Miculek. I'll take the semi-auto, thanks.

[M-Tecs]

Not sure anyone with a pump could keep up with this one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnrsvUanLfU

[405grain]

I carried a Remington 870 with 00 buckshot when I was in the Navy. I've got a 12 gauge single shot for birds and rabbits. When drugged up gangbangers lurk up on my place in the middle of the night (which has happened) they're greeted by the sound of a Mossberg 590A1 cycling a round of #4 buckshot. This has had the effect of instantly converting them from low life zombies into nearly Olympic level runners and sprinters.

[HWooldridge]

I carried a Remington 870 with 00 buckshot when I was in the Navy. I've got a 12 gauge single shot for birds and rabbits. When drugged up gangbangers lurk up on my place in the middle of the night (which has happened) they're greeted by the sound of a Mossberg 590A1 cycling a round of #4 buckshot. This has had the effect of instantly converting them from low life zombies into nearly Olympic level runners and sprinters.

Slightly OT but we used to have a neighborhood teenager who would lurk around some of the local houses at night. We have the yard fenced now and the dogs stay out but at that time, we would garage our dogs around 10 pm so they wouldn't run into a coyote pack while we were asleep. My son came home about 10:30 with his girlfriend and I saw someone run past our picture window, then my son came in the house and said he'd caught a person in the truck headlights. We grabbed shotguns and went outside, then heard somebody running so I fired one round into the ground. The next day, we found footprints that were about 9 feet apart - that boy was flying down the gravel driveway...

The nighttime visits stopped and nothing more was said - problem solved and nobody got hurt.

[beemer]

Years ago I worked with a guy that done time for armed robbery of several banks. Said he always carried a sawed off 12 ga. pump. He would walk in and chamber a round. He would laugh and say that nobody mistakes that sound for anything else and it got their attention and cooperation quick.

[Outpost75]

Our homestead guns are a 1950 time capsule:

Vickers 12-bore, boxlock, Greener crossbolt safety, autoejectors, double triggers, 1/4 and 3/4 choke.
Winchester Model. 70 in '06
Colt Official Police .38 Special
Remington Model 34 bolt action .22
Colt Woodsman.

[pmer]

Not sure anyone with a pump could keep up with this one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnrsvUanLfU

Looks like a fun way to empty a bunch of shells but I think a pump shotgun gets the nod because of their ability to fire from empty with the slide back. You can drop a fresh shell through the ejection port and chamber it almost as fast as from the mag tube and it doesn't take much practice.
Once a regular semi auto is empty you can do the same but you have to fumble around for the bolt release and if your not practiced at it like second nature that could be a problem.

Maybe a magazine fed shotgun would solve that but if their sprung for 3 inch shells can they reliably cycle lower pressure SD loads?

[ascast]

but everybody underatands Shotgun. It is indeed the universal language. Great line, I'm going to file thjs away for future use

[georgerkahn]

As a retired federal lawman, I learned greater respect for the shotgun. For 10 years I instructed and qualified 100+/- agents twice a year on handguns and the shotgun. In my later years before retirement, my agency added the H&K, MP-5 9mm submachine gun to our arms inventory. All the new agents salivated over the MP-5. On the range at 25 yards, I showed them how a 12 gauge stoked with 5 rounds of #4 Buckshot exceeded a 30-round mag of 9mm on our B-27 target.

Now retired to my rural farm, I am often asked by new residents from urban areas, about a recommended farm gun? Since most of these folks never fired any gun before, I offer handgun and shotgun instruction and lean to a shotgun for their first gun. Most folks opt for a pump 20 gauge, with the 12 gauge coming in second.

The anti-gun folks lack gun savvy! That is a Very Good Thing! If they had any clue, they would ban shotguns FAR ahead of any "nasty", "ugly" assault weapon! CLUELESS is sometimes good. LOL.

For NEW country residents, lacking any firearms skills, the shotgun is the best option for their first gun living in the country for 2 or 4 legged critters on their homestead.

Adam

Adam Helmer -- I cannot agree with you more re your recommendations, but --with no disrespect -- wish to add a thought/practice I advised for years. In my tenure as a Hunter Safety instructor in pretty much every class I was -- almost always by a parent asked a similar question vis a "recommended 'gun'". My thoughts came up with, "A brand new aerosol can of Black Flag Wasp & Hornet Spray!"
Too often I've read of family member's (typically a son) who was shot "breaking into" the house after he forgot/lost keys and similar. Also, in today's most litigant times, too often where the homeowner who -- in my opinion -- should have been given an award -- was instead smacked with zillions of dollars' "penalties" ranging from lawyer and court fees to even paying for the perp's injuries (assuming (s)he wasn't killed). At the very least, it seems to be a "given" that the homeowner simply protecting his/her property LOSES their firearm(s), adding insult to injury!!!
I am a believer, too, of a scattergun (I have a 20ga) and an M1 Carbine as great home defense weapons. BUT, if a stream of wasp spray -- a new can will send a concentrated stream seven or eight meters' distance with remarkable accuracy -- is employed first -- I cannot of any perp having this directed at his or her eyes who would not have a change in their plans...
NOT anything (thank you!) tried and trued. You, sir, have the experience; I just have the thoughts :).
Which I've chosen to share...
geo

[Adam Helmer]

george,
Sir, your point is well-taken and I often advise "shaky" novices to forget a gun and get a can of fly spray or oven cleaner. I discuss the awesome legal liability a too quick shooting can involve.

I recall my first or second home firearms class, circa 1976, at my NH gun club. It began at 0800 with an hour classroom safety gun check-in and orientation. Then range time on our 6 outdoor benches with an instructor per bench. We shot at B27 targets at 7 yards. We ended up at about 11:00 with a cop from the town department explaining the laws of self defense. The officer straightened out many myths. He also discussed non-lethal alternatives.

Be well.

Adam

[HWooldridge]

If you want to do the spray route, just buy some bear repellent or normal pepper spray and keep a few cans in strategic locations around your home. The trouble with wasp spray goes back to the problem of too many lawyers...if the bad guy is permanently disabled or dies, the attorneys will be wanting to know WHY WOULD YOU CHOOSE TO USE WASP SPRAY on that poor little guy who tried to break in your home because he was tired and hungry and drunk...shame on you.

[Adam Helmer]

HWooldridge,

I see your point, BUT how will you tell a defense attorney, and a jury, suing you that you thought his client's assailant was a bear and deserved bear spray? A bear is 400 to 1,200 pounds and needs a STRONG spray. What does the "victim" weigh? Good Luck with your testimony!

Everyone has an occasional wasp in their house, while very few have a bear in their home. Case CLOSED!

Be well.

Adam

[HWooldridge]

HWooldridge,

I see your point, BUT how will you tell a defense attorney, and a jury, suing you that you thought his client's assailant was a bear and deserved bear spray? A bear is 400 to 1,200 pounds and needs a STRONG spray. What does the "victim" weigh? Good Luck with your testimony!

Everyone has an occasional wasp in their house, while very few have a bear in their home. Case CLOSED!

Be well.

Adam

My wife thinks I'm a "bear" and has called me by that name for 44 years...[smilie=1:

Personally, I'd probably just buy regular pepper spray for humanoids if I was worried about it - which I'm not...

[rbuck351]

Pepper spray is fairly effective and causes no permanent damage. Doesn't have a lot of range though.

[megasupermagnum]

HWooldridge,

I see your point, BUT how will you tell a defense attorney, and a jury, suing you that you thought his client's assailant was a bear and deserved bear spray? A bear is 400 to 1,200 pounds and needs a STRONG spray. What does the "victim" weigh? Good Luck with your testimony!

Everyone has an occasional wasp in their house, while very few have a bear in their home. Case CLOSED!

Be well.

Adam

FYI, bear spray is a standard item for police riot control. Bear spray is not really more powerful pepper or concentration, it's just that it sprays out a huge fog rather than normal pepper spray which just shoots a single stream. Small pepper spray does not have the volume to spray like bear spray does since it is meant to be carried. Bear spray is not dangerous to people, at least not more dangerous than pepper spray to the eyes.

Wasp spray or any other poison on the other hand can very likely cause lifelong disability, and that's on top of the fact they aren't all that irritating to the eyes or breathing.

[Adam Helmer]

FYI, bear spray is a standard item for police riot control. Bear spray is not really more powerful pepper or concentration, it's just that it sprays out a huge fog rather than normal pepper spray which just shoots a single stream. Small pepper spray does not have the volume to spray like bear spray does since it is meant to be carried. Bear spray is not dangerous to people, at least not more dangerous than pepper spray to the eyes.

Wasp spray or any other poison on the other hand can very likely cause lifelong disability, and that's on top of the fact they aren't all that irritating to the eyes or breathing.

mega,

You may be right, or wrong? At my old agency, I never saw anything to indicate our pepper spray was also bear spray. Regardless, a jury would probably be "swayed" by a cleaver defense attorney who made a BIG issue of using a HUGE Wild Animal spray on a human! Have you litigated any successful civil cases were a jury approved of the use of bear spray? What is the footnote we can read? Do you have case law showing the negative use of wasp spray for victims of home invasions?
Be well.
Adam

[megasupermagnum]

mega,

You may be right, or wrong? At my old agency, I never saw anything to indicate our pepper spray was also bear spray. Regardless, a jury would probably be "swayed" by a cleaver defense attorney who made a BIG issue of using a HUGE Wild Animal spray on a human! Have you litigated any successful civil cases were a jury approved of the use of bear spray? What is the footnote we can read? Do you have case law showing the negative use of wasp spray for victims of home invasions?
Be well.
Adam

This is what I found from a 30 second search.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uy9MnQfk_0

[Adam Helmer]

This is what I found from a 30 second search.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uy9MnQfk_0

mega,
Thanks for the post. I did not open it because it asked for my personal information. If there is case law in the post, please provide the cite and I will Google the case.
Adam

[pmer]

Last simmer when we went to Glacier park, at the hotel we strolled by a class about bear spray and sat in for what was left. The instructor said while it would work for self defense it's more industrial in strength but the trouble is that it will fog the room. So it will end up in your eyes as well which would harm your ability to render aid or continue fighting.

[schutzen-jager]

jmho - never have homesteaded, spent lots of time on rural 500 acre farm in my younger days - except for very rare [ as in never ] defensive purposes a .22 is more suited to homesteader needs - just really not very practical putting down a hog or beef cow with any type of shotgun load -

[Chena]

The point about mistaking a family member or other friendly for a assailant is well taken. I think the solution is a defense in depth, with non-lethal deterrents like loud alarms on doors and windows being the first line, then automatically tripped lights, followed if possible by a loudly barking dog, then a clear line of retreat away from the threat. The hullabaloo and movement will help wake up the defenders and reduce the possibility of a bad shoot. Having trained with bear spray, I don’t recommend unleashing it indoors. I don’t much care for it outdoors as even a slight breeze can push a thin cloud back to the user.

[Finster101]

The point about mistaking a family member or other friendly for a assailant is well taken. I think the solution is a defense in depth, with non-lethal deterrents like loud alarms on doors and windows being the first line, then automatically tripped lights, followed if possible by a loudly barking dog, then a clear line of retreat away from the threat. The hullabaloo and movement will help wake up the defenders and reduce the possibility of a bad shoot. Having trained with bear spray, I don’t recommend unleashing it indoors. I don’t much care for it outdoors as even a slight breeze can push a thin cloud back to the user.



I have two Belgian Malinois dogs. If they are brave enough to enter my home with the dogs trying to attack through the glass, it will take nothing less than lethal force to stop them. I'm not messing with sprays.

[M-Tecs]

Per my LE friends the failure rate to stop of pepper spray is fairly high. I read one University study claiming a 30% failure rate failure to stop. We are talking about a situation that allows for the use of deadly forces. Pepper spray is not something I want my life or the lives of my loved ones to depend on.

As to shooting someone mistakenly that is 100% neglect on the person using the force. Even in a couple of states that allow for very liberal use of deadly force I am not going to use deadly force until I identify a real threat in the form of a deadly weapon. Shooting at a dark form in the corner is the same as slob hunters "sound" shooting. I've had drunks break into my residence. Could I have legally shot them? Probability, but they were so drunk they thought they were at their home. Coupled with the fact they barely could stand they posed little threat other than puking on the floor. If they had a knife, gun or club they would have achieved room temperature. The point is their presence without a weapon was not enough for me to use deadly force.

I have never shot at a human and I hope it stays that way but if I do it will basically be the same as hunting. A viable target is selected followed by selection of the shot placement. Without an actual real threat it's not a viable target. I have a hard time understanding how someone is shot by mistake unless there is neglect on the part of the shooter to identify the target and threat level????

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK guys if any of you have read any of my Posts here on Shotguns? Specifically the "What I did to my Shotguns." Thread https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?440578-What-I-did-to-my-Shotguns

You would have gathered that I am a big proponent of Shotguns for Defense and even Offense at ranges less that 150 yards.. I showed what I did to my 3 Mossberg 500's as far as mods to make them a little more palatable to shoot.

But what if you really knew how to run the thing? The "Gun Handling" portion of using a Shotgun is more important and there is a lot more to it than running a Rifle or Pistol. The offset is that you are also fielding a much more powerful weapon. I look at a Tactical 12 ga. Shotgun as a .73 Caliber Rifle, and with certain Modifications even with 00 Buckshot it is not that much different than a rifle. 2 of my M500's pattern 00 into 7" at 25 yards, which is a far cry from 15" at 15 yards with a common Cylinder Bore gun.

Also there is the Solid Projectile be it a Ball or Slug now you are into the realm of the Brown Bess Musket which was the Standard Small Arm of the British Army from 1720 to 1830. Pretty obvious that getting hit with a 600 gr .75 caliber ball was effective enough to be relied on for 110 years, and the main difference between that gun and a modern Shotgun shooting Slugs is,,, No Smoke, No Smell, and a Repeater with 5-9 rounds available.

I have been a Rifleman for all of my life, but when I finally started going to shotgun classes at Front Sight I began to realize that the power I could wield in a Combat Situation was so far above any of my rifles that it warranted lots more attention. I have been to 7ea. 2 and 4 day Tactical Shotgun Classes at Front Sight and will be going to #8 as soon as it warms up a bit next month.

What I have learned in those classes is how to operate a Shotgun at a level far above anything I can do with a rifle. Most of that revolves around Ammunition Handling. I have 1 M500 that is 7+1 and 2 that are 5+1 so keeping them fed is a key issue. I can fire 6 rounds in about 4 seconds which means I've got to reload that gun fast. This is covered by Single Loading AKA "Port Loading" and as of last week mastering a Technique Lena Miculek showed me for loading 4 shells quickly. Not Quad Loading but the method that preceded that technique. I am working on that one every day as there is a learning curve.

Any way just getting a Shotgun for Home Defense is not going to keep you safe. You actually need to learn how to use it. And that is where training classes come in. You will need to go to a few and actually burn some ammo to build enough confidence so that if you actually need to fight,,, It won't be an "On the Job Training Experience!"

Lots of useful info in the What I did to my Shotguns Thread, you should look at it.

Randy

[Rick R]

309911

[45workhorse]

Rick R
To funny, but we have a Great Dane that will chase red or green lasers. You got to be careful where you point the thing.

I like shotguns for inside the house, just wish I could mount a bayonet on my VR80!

[arclight]

The Remington 870 Youth in 20GA is a really underrated weapon. It's not just a 12GA with a different barrel. The whole thing is scaled down, and it's very easy to handle for probably everyone in a household.

[Bmi48219]

….. I still prefer my long gun, would rather deal with a threat at 400 yds than 4 yds.

Personally, I don’t know if I could distinguish between a threat and a friend at 400 yards, unless they were carrying a large sign.

[Texas by God]

The Remington 870 Youth in 20GA is a really underrated weapon. It's not just a 12GA with a different barrel. The whole thing is scaled down, and it's very easy to handle for probably everyone in a household.

Correct. And they hunt real well too.
I wish that my 12 gauge 870 had a vent rib barrel the same length as my sons 870 Youth.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sitzme]

I have a nephew who is a LEO in AK. He got bear sprayed in the face during a traffic stop and there was some concern that he was going to lose his vision. It all worked out for him. The perp was not treated kindly during the arrest however...

Not saying don't use it, just be aware that it is some potent stuff and the victim will need medical attention.

Like others, I favor a 12ga pump w/target loads and a M1911. A .22 mag revolver for the wife when I am away since she is comfortable with that gun but not so much with others. Dogs are great even if we don't have one.

Mostly I try to live where there are fewer problems. Not a choice available to all though.