What Does This Tell Me?

[billmc2]

Today I ran some 45 ACP through the chronograph. This is the first time I've loaded 45 ACP. I was using a 230 gr, powder coated, Keith SWC. I used Accurate No 5, with charges from the 2nd Ed Lee Reloading Manual. The pistol was a Sig P220. I had the chronograph sitting 12 feet from the muzzle.

I didn't have any problems with any of the loads, but I need to study the results a bit more. When I was packing up, getting things ready to put away, I noticed the chronograph was covered in little particles. They looked similar to grains of black pepper. I haven't noticed this in the past (doesn't mean it hasn't happened). I know it is coming from the muzzle blast, but I don't know what it tells me.

Could someone tell me how to interpret this?

[dondiego]

Sounds like you might have been using a ball powder and the wind was coming from behind you which helped deposit the "pepper" on your equipment????? I don't know what else it might tell you but hopefully more knowledgeable people will tell us!

[Winger Ed.]

It's ash and unburned powder.
Chase one of the dots around with a cigarette-- if it sparkles, its unburned powder.

Shoot one round at night. The bigger your muzzle flash- the more of that effect you see will happen.

Faster and flake powders like Unique usually have a more complete burn and don't (hardly) do it.

[Bigslug]

I did a quick look at a powder burn rate chart. The Accurate #5 you're using is reported to be a slower burner than Unique, which I've personally found to be an incomplete burner in the .45ACP, with lots of unburned granules left behind to foul up the pistol.

I suspect you have a similar situation going on. You might try a quicker burner - such as Bullseye.

[billmc2]

Thanks guys. I knew it meant something but I wasn't sure exactly what. On hand, I also have Tite Group, CFE Pistol, and Win 244. I believe Tite Group is faster, so I'll try that next. Amongst the copies of burn rate charts I have, I can't find a listing for the CFE Pistol or Win 244, so I don't know where these fall on the scale.

A quick look at the results I got, the velocities with Acc No 5 are not quite up to where the load manual indicates they should be running. I'm trying to learn here. Am I correct in saying that I might get more of the powder burning with higher pressures? I'm wondering if I don't have enough of a crimp.

[Winger Ed.]

I might get more of the powder burning with higher pressures? I'm wondering if I don't have enough of a crimp.

Maybe so. You'll need to tinker with the load & such.
These folks here will probably help with that more than I can.
Just don't shoot your eye out kid.:bigsmyl2:

A slow powder that makes a big muzzle flash doesn't really hurt anything.
That flash & unburned powder is wasted energy, sort of like an engine running too rich.
It'll work, just not as efficiently as it could.


Your mileage may vary,,,,,,,,, so don't try this at home without adult supervision.
Here's what works for me with .45ACP in my old Gold Cup, and a Tupperware Springfield XD:

I always used Unique, because I didn't know any better. It's shoots well, cleans up easily,
and the soot never really bothered me. I shoot the stumpy little 195 gr Lyman as soft as what casts well,
and just a little more powder than it takes to kick the Gold cup open with a light spring.
I also use it in a full house 185JHP load for the Springfield.

Awhile back, A buddy sold me a old, unopened, round, steel 4 or 5 pound can of Bullseye for $40.
It was the original powder developed just for the .45ACP when the govt. bought into it back around 1903.
It runs cleaner, and does a great job for me too.

In both loadings, I put just enough of a taper crimp on the case that I can't over power the crimp
and push the boolit back into the case with my thumb, and it drops right into the case gage/chamber.

[Hick]

I'd say try the titegroup-- that's what works well in my 45 acp. You need to be a little careful adding to the crimp because the case headspaces on the neck (that is, the mouth of the case is what stops the cartridge from going too far into the barrel). I don't know how much crimp you are using, so you might be able to add more-- just be aware.

[billmc2]

I'd say try the titegroup-- that's what works well in my 45 acp. You need to be a little careful adding to the crimp because the case headspaces on the neck (that is, the mouth of the case is what stops the cartridge from going too far into the barrel). I don't know how much crimp you are using, so you might be able to add more-- just be aware.

I used a Lee Factory crimp die on these. I'm not sure how to tell if I have enough of a crimp or not. Looking at the cartridge drawing in my 4th ed Lyman Cast Bullet handbook, they show a 0.473 dimension, but coming out of my Redding seating die, I measured 0.471. I tightened the Factory crimp die until I felt a little resistance, but the dimension didn't seem to change.

[Hick]

I used a Lee Factory crimp die on these. I'm not sure how to tell if I have enough of a crimp or not. Looking at the cartridge drawing in my 4th ed Lyman Cast Bullet handbook, they show a 0.473 dimension, but coming out of my Redding seating die, I measured 0.471. I tightened the Factory crimp die until I felt a little resistance, but the dimension didn't seem to change.

That should be fine. You can check by chambering a round by hand. As long as the edge of the mouth hits the little shoulder in the chamber you're good to go.

[ioon44]

I used a Lee Factory crimp die on these. I'm not sure how to tell if I have enough of a crimp or not. Looking at the cartridge drawing in my 4th ed Lyman Cast Bullet handbook, they show a 0.473 dimension, but coming out of my Redding seating die, I measured 0.471. I tightened the Factory crimp die until I felt a little resistance, but the dimension didn't seem to change.

The Lee Factory crimp die is most likely reducing the neck tension by swagging the bullet which will cause more unburnt powder.

Pull some of your bullets and measure the diameter before and after using the Lee Factory crimp die.

Sounds like your loads are good to go out of the Redding dies at 0.471".

[charlie b]

For the Win244 go to the Hodgdon website reloading pages. They have loads for the .45acp.

On their resources page you will find a current burn rate chart with 244 on it. It falls just under Unique.

I would not worry about the particles. Just use a powder that works for you. I've burned many pounds of AA#5, Unique, 231, Bullseye, etc in my .45 without any issues. I like the burn rates in the Unique range for heavy loads. For light loads these days I use 700 just because I have a big jug of it in the cabinet. For heavy loads I used to use Blue Dot or AA#7, now I use 244 just because it meters better and it is more available.

[Froogal]

I just recently loaded some .45acp with 5.4 grains of Winchester 244 under a 200 grain LRNFP. I have shot only 7 rounds of those so far, but I did like the performance.

[Sig]

IMO more crimp is not the answer with S/Autos. A taper crimp die's sole use is to remove the flare created from the belling die. Neck tension is achieved from the sizing die. Now revolver cartridges with roll crimps can benefit sometimes with more crimp IMO.

[littlejack]

Bill
Hodgdon has load data for CFE Pistol. Either their Hodgdon Reloading magazine, or on line. I've just started reloading for my 9mm pistols. I searched for an appropriate powder, with about what burn rate I wanted, AND what was available. Turns out, that according to Hodgdons data, it's a very good powder for the 45acp cartridge as well. With all that said, most of my 45 loadings are with 231 powder for standard loads up to 230 grain, and Herco for heavy bullet (250-260) grain boolits. Both burn very clean. Don't know what primer you're using, but if you are really concerned about the unburnt powder, maybe try a hotter primer. Either WLP, or one of the magnum pistol primers.

[wv109323]

It is burnt and unburnt powder. What does it mean? Nothing if you are satisfied with velocity and accuracy.
Your powder is a little slow for .45 acp. Most use one of the quicker powders like Bullseye, WW231 and such.
Unburnt powder is common and can be a problem and very dangerous in indoor ranges. When accumulated it can ignite. I can remember two indoor ranges that have burnt down due to fire.

[billmc2]

The Lee Factory crimp die is most likely reducing the neck tension by swagging the bullet which will cause more unburnt powder.

Pull some of your bullets and measure the diameter before and after using the Lee Factory crimp die.

Sounds like your loads are good to go out of the Redding dies at 0.471".

The next ones that I load I won't use the Lee die. I haven't been at this hand loading game very long. When I first started I was using jacketed bullets in rimless cases. Because the Redding die is supposed to seat and crimp at the same time, so that's what I did (this was before I found this site). Later, here on this site, folks were telling me its best if I seat and crimp in two different steps. I'll have to play it by ear as I go forth and see which cartridge needs which type of crimp method for me.

Edited do to pilot error. Still learning how to post on this site.

[Winger Ed.]

I seat and crimp in two different steps.

If you're crimping on a single stage press, concentrate on what you're doing,
and pretty soon you'll get a feel for what the right crimp amount is.
If a longer case gets in the mix, you can feel it and stop before the case bulges from being crushed.

[billmc2]

For the Win244 go to the Hodgdon website reloading pages. They have loads for the .45acp.

On their resources page you will find a current burn rate chart with 244 on it. It falls just under Unique.

I would not worry about the particles. Just use a powder that works for you. I've burned many pounds of AA#5, Unique, 231, Bullseye, etc in my .45 without any issues. I like the burn rates in the Unique range for heavy loads. For light loads these days I use 700 just because I have a big jug of it in the cabinet. For heavy loads I used to use Blue Dot or AA#7, now I use 244 just because it meters better and it is more available.

Thanks for that info. I had never scrolled down that page, far enough, to find the Resources page. I did find the new burn rate chart and downloaded it. This chart says it was last updated in October 2022. It also show CFE Pistol, which I didn't have before.

[billmc2]

If you're crimping on a single stage press, concentrate on what you're doing,
and pretty soon you'll get a feel for what the right crimp amount is.
If a longer case gets in the mix, you can feel it and stop before the case bulges from being crushed.

Yeah, single stage press. Its the Redding Turret press. I'm constantly learning new things as I go along.

[billmc2]

IMO more crimp is not the answer with S/Autos. A taper crimp die's sole use is to remove the flare created from the belling die. Neck tension is achieved from the sizing die. Now revolver cartridges with roll crimps can benefit sometimes with more crimp IMO.

The most recent cartridge that I loaded before the 45 ACP was 44 Special. I knew the amount of crimp there would affect the pressure inside the case, so I thought it might be similar here; but I guess not.

[billmc2]

Bill
Hodgdon has load data for CFE Pistol. Either their Hodgdon Reloading magazine, or on line. I've just started reloading for my 9mm pistols. I searched for an appropriate powder, with about what burn rate I wanted, AND what was available. Turns out, that according to Hodgdons data, it's a very good powder for the 45acp cartridge as well. With all that said, most of my 45 loadings are with 231 powder for standard loads up to 230 grain, and Herco for heavy bullet (250-260) grain boolits. Both burn very clean. Don't know what primer you're using, but if you are really concerned about the unburnt powder, maybe try a hotter primer. Either WLP, or one of the magnum pistol primers.

Right now I'm using the CCI 300 Large Pistol primer.

[44MAG#1]

I have shot the 452423 Keith in the 45 Auto. I am now using Power pistol with the OAL 1.170 inch and I crimp all my semi auto ammo pretty stiff. The crimp can be easily seen by just looking at the cartridge.
I also use the Magma molds 250 RNFP in the 45 Auto too with Power pistol.
Although I like a clone of the Saeco 058 but in 230 gr weight the best and use it far, far, far more.

[billmc2]

It is burnt and unburnt powder. What does it mean? Nothing if you are satisfied with velocity and accuracy.
Your powder is a little slow for .45 acp. Most use one of the quicker powders like Bullseye, WW231 and such.
Unburnt powder is common and can be a problem and very dangerous in indoor ranges. When accumulated it can ignite. I can remember two indoor ranges that have burnt down due to fire.

The particles themselves showing up didn't really concern me. What I was interested in was "what does this tell me?". In this case, especially because I'm still learning, the unburnt powder is telling me a lot, I just didn't know what it was.

You and a couple of others have told me the powder I'm using is a little slow for this application. I might consider a faster powder. A different primer might be called for. A rimless case crimp and a rimmed case crimp do not, necessarily, work the same.

Guys, once again for all the help. Looking at my shinny new burn rate chart, I see that Win 244 is a little faster than Accurate 5, and because I haven't used it yet, I'll give that a try. If that doesn't work for me I can try the Tite Group or maybe even the CFE Pistol (which is shown to be slower than Acc 5).

[billmc2]

I have shot the 452423 Keith in the 45 Auto. I am now using Power pistol with the OAL 1.170 inch and I crimp all my semi auto ammo pretty stiff. The crimp can be easily seen by just looking at the cartridge.
I also use the Magma molds 250 RNFP in the 45 Auto too with Power pistol.
Although I like a clone of the Saeco 058 but in 230 gr weight the best and use it far, far, far more.

The mold I'm using is from Arsenal Molds. It is a 230 gr Keith bullet.
The OAL is something else I need to look at. I was having a little bit of a problem getting the cartridges into the Sig magazine. If I shorten the OAL a little, I'll have less problems with the magazine while at the same time decreasing volume which should raise the pressure a bit. I'm assuming the pressure increase will cause a cleaner burn along with getting my velocities closer to what the load manual says they should be at.

[fredj338]

Thanks guys. I knew it meant something but I wasn't sure exactly what. On hand, I also have Tite Group, CFE Pistol, and Win 244. I believe Tite Group is faster, so I'll try that next. Amongst the copies of burn rate charts I have, I can't find a listing for the CFE Pistol or Win 244, so I don't know where these fall on the scale.

A quick look at the results I got, the velocities with Acc No 5 are not quite up to where the load manual indicates they should be running. I'm trying to learn here. Am I correct in saying that I might get more of the powder burning with higher pressures? I'm wondering if I don't have enough of a crimp.
With medium & slower powders, best performance will be above midrange in the load data. I suspect your loads might be starting data, almost useless IMO. GO with mid point data & work that up or down, but if going below a medium burn rate powder, I tend to drop to a faster powder for better results. Medium burners run fine in low pressure rds like the 45acp, you just want to be up in the load range. I've shot a lot of Unique in 45acp & 38sp & 45colt.

[45_Colt]

Spewing burnt and un-burnt powder from pistols/revolvers is common. I've seen it flash off on the floor of a range. It is also common (required) to sweep it up and place it in a 4 - 5 gallon metal can to be disposed of later.

Until of course a smoker throws their lit butt into the can... (can get exciting).

But it isn't anything to worry about. Some powders are so bad at this that you can find un-burnt granules in the barrel.

45_Colt

[David2011]

Maybe I missed the velocity. Were these light loads? Lighter loads are more prone to have unburned powder than full power loads. I shoot some extremely light 200 grain .45 ACP loads that are very dirty (but FUN!).

[uscra112]

One thing it's telling you is you're wasting money. 30% or more of that powder you paid good money for isn't doing anything but flying out the muzzle to dirty up your Chrony.

[fredj338]

Maybe I missed the velocity. Were these light loads? Lighter loads are more prone to have unburned powder than full power loads. I shoot some extremely light 200 grain .45 ACP loads that are very dirty (but FUN!).

What powder? For really light loads, you want a very fast powder like BE. Though BE is almost like black powder at any load range. Newer powders burn cleaner.

[billmc2]

Maybe I missed the velocity. Were these light loads? Lighter loads are more prone to have unburned powder than full power loads. I shoot some extremely light 200 grain .45 ACP loads that are very dirty (but FUN!).

They were not intended to be light loads but the velocities I was getting were lower than what the book said they would be; it was a 230 gr Keith bullet. I was using Accurate No 5. I went back and shortened the OAL, so I didn't have problems with the magazines. When I did this I no longer had the unburnt powder problem. The velocity is still low; I have more studying to do before I try again.