Need sizing die advice

[Marlin Junky]

I'm going to start shooting PP bullets through my M70 in 30-06 and need some advice on which diameter "Push-Through" die to special order from Lee. I'd like to be able to use bullet metal that will expand without the aid of a hollow point. A clip-on WW bullet that's .301" on the nose fits snugly in the barrel up to the forward driving band and can be easily removed with the thumb and first finger. Should I ask Lee for a .301" die, or maybe even a .302" die? The alloy I'd like to start using is 50/50 (50% clip-on WW metal and 50% Pb) and registers about 10 to 11 BHN when air cooled, IIRC.

I could also use some advice on what bullet mold to use too. Will Lyman 311041 work? I've also got RCBS 30-180FN and I think there's a couple more .30's around here somewhere too.

Thanks,
MJ

[pdawg_shooter]

If your bore is a tight .301 than .301 to .3015 would be perfect. Two wraps of 16# paper, a dab of lube and a pass through a .309 die to remove the excess and you are ready to load. The most consistently accurate 30cal bullets in my 06 are the 311284 and the 311414. Most any 30cal will shoot well patched. Try what you have first and add on later. Good luck and have fun!

[beemer]

I have the same problem, I guess it would depend on the bore size and paper you use. I have thought about a .301, you can hone it out bigger if needed but you can't make it smaller. You can't really depend on it being exactly the size you order, might be a little one way or the other. The patched boolits can be sized to so that will give more options.

I have wraped a .308 boolit to .314 with .0015 tracing paper , lubed it with LLA then sized to 310. They shot about 2-2 1/4 in at 100 yds in my Springfield, I can't remember the load. I didn't take it any further because I was tied up with other things at the time but need to try it again.

beemer

[docone31]

I use off the shelf items.
I use the C309/180 Lee .30 cal mold. Size to .308, wrap with two wraps of either notebook paper, or printer paper, twist tail, let dry, snip the tail, dab some JPW, or auto wax on the wrap, and size to .309.
You have .309 in the .30s from two sources. My .308s, and 03-A3 digest .309 with impunity.
The patch length for .30cal the way I do it is 2 3/16". I cut the ends at 45*.
I think you gonna like patching.
Accurate is one word to describe them. Easy on the bore, cleans as it goes.
I soak my patches, lay one in my cigarette roller, lay the casting on it, close the roller, roll and set it in my drying block.
Next.

[eka]

I've been doing about what docone and beemer are doing. Size to .308 in a Lee push through and patch. Then final size in a .311 die in my Lubrisizer and impart some FWFL on it. It seems to work great for me in my 03A3's. I'm still learning myself.

Keith

[leftiye]

Use a plug gauge to find your bore diameter. Get a sizing die .001" larger.

[Marlin Junky]

Maybe I'll just order both a .301" and .302" die. The reason I was asking about diameters is because I have very limited experience with Lee "Push Through" dies and I've noticed that Lyman 450 dies can vary to the point of sizing a whole .001" under their indicated diameter with very soft alloys.

I think I'll try 311284 first even though the idea of PP'ing is to shoot 'em fast! If 311284 works, I'll go with a lighter boolit and step up the velocity.

MJ

[docone31]

My patching experience in the .30s.
They like it heavy patched. My .308 is at least the posted 2500fps patched.
I use the 180gn Lee .30cal mold. I tried the .303 mold sized down to .308, then wrapped to .317 with notebook paper, then sized to .309. It didn't like the .304 nose. It really is friendly to the .301 nose on the .30s.
With my .308, I use 40.4gns of Surplus 4895. Kinda like 4064 rather than H4895. 38.4gns is too light. Got carbon printing on the neck and shoulders of the cartridge. I use the same charge in my .303 British with paper.

[Marlin Junky]

So docone31, what diameter do you suppose a .302" Lee push-through die will size BHN 10-11 metal to assuming it starts out approximately .310"?

MJ

[docone31]

I would not do that.
When I have sized really large castings, I busted my toggle on my press, and most of my sizings were deformed.
It will finish at .302, but it might not be pretty.
If it were me, I would size at .308, wrap, then size to .309. That is my golden formula and it has performed flawlessly since the first one.
I had many mushroomed bases that jammed my sizer going that far. If you are going to do that, do it in steps. Size .305, then .302. Easier all around.
You are displaceing a lot of metal there.
I go .314 to .308 with my .303. There is still evidence of lube bands when it is through. It looks like you are going to size from part way down the bore riding portion.
I got my mushroomed bases from that sizing.
You will get .302. The sizing dies are pretty much dead on. The lead is soft.
I use wheel weights, water dropped. Reasonably hard. They do mushroom though.

[Marlin Junky]

They do mushroom though.

You mean obturate? :mrgreen:

Well, perhaps I'll order a .306" and .301" die since most .30 cal boolits will drop from the mold at .310-.311".

Thanks.
MJ

[leftiye]

If you're gonna make a .308 or larger boolit be .301 diameter do it in two or more steps. Better still, make yerself a .302" mold. Paper patched doesn't need grease grooves, and the mold can simply be drilled out of a .285" (7mm) mold. BTW, 30 caliber iron molds should be about three thousandths larger than the desired boolit size (.305"). Finish with a decimal size straight chucking reamer for better finish.

[docone31]

Yeppir, two steps.
Much less wear and tear and remelts!
Another trick I use with good success. I lubricate with dish soap. Rinses right off.
You want nothing on the casting to be patched.
I can also assure you, the mushrooms I got sizing, there would no gas leakage in the chamber!!! I had to drive the castings out of the die with a brass rod from the top.
They melt well though.
Good luck on your patching.
The system I use is possibly paper gasketing more than patching. I am looking forward to your results. I had tossed that idea around myself.

[Marlin Junky]

leftiye,

I don't have a lathe nor do I have any 7mm molds so I'll just get started in PP'ing as planned.

docone31,

Do you think sizing to .306" then .301" then patching and sizing to .309"-.310" is better than what you said above which was, "...size at .308, wrap, then size to .309"? The latter sounds like it would put a whole lot of stress on the patch.

'Nuther question: When I indicated a final size at .309" to .310" the reason I said that was because that's what I'm sizing grooved boolits to for my M70. Do I just carry over that diameter to the world of PP'ing or are there other rules that govern paper patched boolit groove diameters?

MJ

[docone31]

Here is the deal,
When I first heard about sizing a paper patch, I just plain could not visualize it. No way!!!
Welp, it works and works well.
I size my paper patches to standard jacketed size for my .30s. I have not sized them .310.
I am serious, I laid awake one night visualizing my patch while drying, unwrapping, or being sized and just coming apart. They did not. Not at all.
One thing I noticed however, the less wax I use on the to be sized patch, the better the finish on the patch itself after sizing.
I sized and loaded up a batch of patches, size .309. I had remembered a while back, I had a box of Herters 180gn .309 jacketeds. I fired them off with good results. The standard jacketed bullet is .308 for the .30. I figuired, maybe try .309 to start.
I had my Ishy I had just finished putting on a reciever sight and doing a bedding job. I loaded up a round. I had bore sighted my reciever sight through the original sight, then removed the barrel sight. I chambered the round, lined up the front sight at a bowling pin someone had left at the range. It was at 120yds. I pulled the trigger and the pin went dancing!
I have been there ever since. Within 10rds, I had sighted in the reciever sight with three touching on paper at 100.
I had thought sizing the patch would trash it. I had read about it, but, internet forums, you know. Well, it went very smoothly. It almost seemed too good to be true.
If I were you, after the results I got, I would size to .308, wrap two turns, size to .309.
Meade is thinner paper, and it sizes well, computer paper is about notebook paper thickness, they both size well. I also use a cigarette roller. I believe it makes a tigher patch. I lay the WET patch on the apron, lay the casting on the paper tip and roll.
A lot of my patches look sloppy compared to the big guys on here, uneven lay, a little high, a little low, a wrinkle. I have yet to see a difference down range. The roller flattens the wrinkles and when sized they are just a shadow. I just tried some real high patches. No difference.
As far as a rule,
I size my SMLE#1MKIII to .314. It slugs at .312. The is .002 over. My .30s are .308-.3085, I size to .309. I have yet to get castings to function in any of my rifles. Pistols are different.
Use dish soap to size the casting. It washes off very easily. I run hot water over them. I have some Chinese food containers, the poly ones. I fill one up and run the water. Either JPW, or auto wax for final sizing, lightly. I snip the tails prior to sizing so there is just a little showing. I use fingernail clippers for that.
I have fired torn base patches, clean cut bases, long tails. Uncut tails. I did not experience any difference in performance. I do not crimp the patches, I use the FCD die and have it adjusted just short of crimping. I just make the neck tight. On my .30s, I set the seating die just short of crimping.
To size the .301s I would do it in two steps. You will get less rejects. I get rejects sizing .314 to .308. I could step it down as .314 to .311 to .308, but I get in an hurry most times. Last batch of 100, I messed up five.

[Marlin Junky]

docone31,

For a final sizing is a push through die required or can I use my .309" Lyman 450 die?

Thank you,
MJ

[rhead]

If you already have the die, wrap one and try it. The lube ports would have to be blocked. If you decide that the paper is over stressed you can toss the results back in the pot. It does work. I have no idea if the paper patch is stressed or not but it does not seen to detract from the way it shoots. Iit does act as a shim for the sizing die and you will know the size a bullet would need to be sized to to go at it the other way.

[Marlin Junky]

I wasn't aware the lube ports would be an issue. I was trying to get all the custom sizing dies I need into one order since it takes Lee about 4 weeks to fill one of these orders, but now it sounds like I can do this with the off-the-shelf dies; i.e., a .308" and .309" push-through die.

MJ

[docone31]

I have only used the .308, and .309 push thru dies for my paper in the .30s. I do not see why not use what you have.
If they size lead, why not paper.
We are not swageing.

[Marlin Junky]

Problem is, I only have Lyman 450 dies in .309" thru .312" so I have to order something in order to get started PP'ing for my M70 '06.

Mj

[docone31]

Yeah,
If you are going to get a die, go with what works. Personally, for paper patching, I like the Lee dies. I can lube my castings with dish soap. Snap clean up for patching with no residue for the patch to stick. Lee is quick and inexpensive.
So you got a die in .309, bite the bullet so to speak and get a push thru in .308. Get your feet wet.
The only thing that worries me in giving advice, I use a cigarette roller. That convience might be what is getting my results. I got in the black very fast this way. I have not done it hand wrapped.

[Marlin Junky]

Would I be better off getting .308" and .309" push-throughs? The "off-the-shelf" push-through dies are only 16 bucks at Midway.

MJ

[docone31]

Since you already have .309, I would get .308. If the sizing of the patch is sweet, I might get a .309 down the road so you have two dedicated dies.
That system worked magic for me first time.
I couldn't believe it.

[Marlin Junky]

Re: final sizing with a .309" 450 die...

Isn't that going to put a lot of stress on the patch? Assuming I patch with .002" paper of some kind (tracing paper with cotton content, I guess) that'll create a .315" (allowing .001" for shrinkage) bullet that needs to be stuffed into a .309" die. Would a .309" Lee push-through be more likely to do a better job than a .309" Lyman 450 die under these conditions?

MJ

[rhead]

I have never used the Lyman so I have no opinion. With the Lee push through I get maybe 5% failures, Many or which are due to minor flaws in the wrapping. I have never had a failure on a re-wrap.
I patch for 45-70, 44 mag, 357 mag, 8mm Mouser (Turk), 30-30, 270, and 22 hornet. There is no problem with 90% discards on the first batch, your fingers will be learning a new skill.

[docone31]

My patches are .317 before sizing.
Before I did my first one, I laid awake thinking of all the ways the patch could come off, be loose, or just mess up in general.
I set one of the best on the ram after a little wax, and it went right through. Nice shiney sides, consistant sizing, stub tail flattened evenly on the bottom.
Every patch after that went just like that.
In my .303 British, with the traceing paper and two wraps, and three wraps, I did not size. They also shot badly as they were .0005 undersize.
In general, it did not seem to negatively affect the patch.
To my pleasant suprise.

[Marlin Junky]

My patches are .317 before sizing.


And they are .309" after sizing? I assume through the Lee "push-through" die?

How hard is your alloy and how fast can you push it?

MJ

[docone31]

They come out about .309, .3095. I water drop everything when I cast, and there is some zinc in it also.
I use the start data for my powder, 4895, which gives me about 2700fps. I have no chrono, so I am just guessing.

[Marlin Junky]

OK... dies are on order (Lee .308" and .309"). Now all I need is some paper and I was also wondering if I can use the same lube on the patched boolits as I do on my grooved boolits. I was thinking after the patches dry I could melt a pan of lube, dip the boolits in the melted lube and let the lube harden (while resting the boolits on their bases) before the final sizing to .309".

MJ

[beemer]

If you are going to lube the patches after they dry try the LLA. You will get a bottle in the package with the new dies. I have tried lubing the patched bullet in a lyman sizer, they lubed alright but didn't shoot well. The lube must not soak through the patch and make the paper stick to the bullet, it must come off after leaving the muzzle. Setting the patch in melted lube might soak through. Buckshot recommended LLA, it works great.

beemer

[docone31]

Stay with just waxing the surface! Even applying the wax, go real tender.
With paper, Meade Traceing Paper worked real well for me. So did standard lined notebook paper and printer paper, the 8 X 11 size. I got mine at a dollar store.
With the Meade paper, the grain is against the width. Same with printer paper and notebook paper.
Both the printer paper, and notebook paper went through the .309 die real easily. So did Meade.

[Marlin Junky]

Paul Matthews talks about melting beeswax over a double boiler to apply to the patch for water-proofing and he does say allowing the wax to soak through the patch is not good.

Don't the patches need to be lubed before the final sizing especially when going from .316" to .309"?

MJ

[docone31]

I wipe the wax on each patch before final sizing.
I have found, I can wax one, then use the left over on my fingers for two. In other words, go lightly. It works best.
I think you are gonna like the final results.
Makes a good target puncher, at least for me.

[Marlin Junky]

I wipe the wax on each patch before final sizing.

Docone31,

Wax? Can you be more specific?

Thanks,
MJ

[docone31]

I mostly now use Turtle Wax for cars.
Good stuff.

[Marlin Junky]

I mostly now use Turtle Wax for cars.
Good stuff.

How about JPW?

MJ

[docone31]

I also use JPW. I wipe my finger in either, just use a little.
I have been useing Turtle Wax as it is convient and also works.
Both seem to work without any residue in the bore.

[Marlin Junky]

docone31,

I got my .308" and .309" push-through dies from Midway today and I'll get started sizing some BHN 14.5, RCBS 30-180FN boolits with the .308" die tomorrow night. So, you recommend lubing the boolits with dishwashing liquid for the first sizing (the .308" sizing)?

When I get around to patching this weekend, how wet do the patches need to start out in order for a proper shrink-to-fit to occur? I think my wife has some Strathmore tracing paper laying around here that I'll use.

MJ

[jaydee1445]

I too am curious as to how wet the patches need to be. Do you just dip them or do you let them soak?:confused:

[pdawg_shooter]

I dip mine for maybe 2 seconds. The paper you are using will tell you how wet it needs to be. If it falls apart when you are wrapping it is too wet! The wettest that you can still wrap with gives the most stretch and therefore the tightest wrap when it dries.

[docone31]

I put a bunch of castings in a Chinese Food Container, a large one. I squirt some dishwashing liquid in the container with the castings, and tumble lube. When I am done, I rinse in the same container with HOT water untill all the bubbles are gone.
How wet do I make them?
I use a cigarette roller, I lay them on dripping wet. I lay the tip of the patch in the apron, then lay the casting to be wrapped on it where I want it to go. I roll it, then remove it. The excess water squeeges out. I twist the tail and let dry, at least overnight. I am airconditioned so that helps in the drying also.

[larsnelson]

Soo... as per docone31's instructions I bought a cig roller, some .0015 25 lb tracing paper, sized a Lee 185 C309R to .309 and because the .308 sizer was still on order.

The .309 was wrapped to get the technique down and then run through the same sizing die again, with a touch of JPW which yielded a good looking .3095 ppb.

When the patch was removed the slug now measured about .305. Tracing paper can be some tough stuff.

Based on this: could I take a .308 slug when the sizer arrives, and size the patched bullet again for a ppb of about .3085. Would there be any problem with such tight a patch compression which is squeezing the slug down .004 in Diameter??

Sincerely,

Lars

[leftiye]

I'd go ahead and size the extra thou. I'd say no (no problem). I think that compressing the paper enough to size the lead is a plus. Should make the paper a better "jacket". I'd guess that a pulpy paper could be sized all you wanted to size it maybe. Should make it into something like manila folder paper. Not that a huge lot of sizing would be a good idea.

[docone31]

You might want to size to .309 after patching. You want a tight fit. Mine grow a little when they have been sitting also.
I have measured my sized to .309, and they have gone to .310. The patch remains tight. I loaded 100 the other day with no issues either in the die, or handling.
I will try some out soon.

[RMulhern]

Me thinks this site's name needs changing to:

WHACKY TABACKY ROLLERS EXTRAORDINAIRE

[Lead pot]

[smilie=l:[smilie=p:[smilie=l:

This reminded me what my Wife used to say to the Kids when they were small while rubbing there hand....

You roll it you pat it you mark it with B and you put it in the oven with Baby and me.....

[larsnelson]

When I was a kid I used to shoot with my grandfather.

He shot a Ballard 38/55, and a Remington Hepburm 32/40 with ppb loaded using Ideal nutcracker tools with the mold built in.

The object of all this was to shoot an undersized slug wrapped up to diameter, lubed with bacon fat, or Crisco, (if you were high tech).

The slug never contacted the bore, just the patch.

I still have those rifles.
I just want to test out this new thing on a modern weapon (Savage 110L) before using it in the old timers.

I think JPW is really great stuff, I'd like to try Tree Wax if I could find it.
Carnuba has some amazing properties.
The cig roller sure simplifies the process and improves consistency.

As regards ppbs: we wrapped because of inconsistencies between the reloading tools and the bore size.

Cant wait for the .308 sizer, it's coming next week.
These are good projects for rainy days.

Thanks,

Lars