Question about weighing brass and bullets

[M1fuzz]

Hello,
Want to do a little experimenting. To those who weigh their cast bullets and brass what is your cut-off for non use? +or- how many grains? I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks!!!

[M-Tecs]

That depends on application. For 1,000 BPCR I am very picky. For cowboy action if it's safe it gets fired.

[M1fuzz]

That depends on application. For 1,000 BPCR I am very picky. For cowboy action if it's safe it gets fired.

Got it. I am shooting old military rifles at 100, 200, and 300 yards. So, I am guessing somewhere in between your requirements. I get where you are coming from w/ the 1,000 yard shooting. Every little thing matters in that sport.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

For BPCR I weigh my boolits to +/- 0.1gn before lubrication. It certainly pays off in shooting 100 yd groups with my Sharps 45/70

https://i.imgur.com/E7vhjh2m.jpg

When considering weighing boolits when I'm casting I make 10 from pure lead and weigh them. When I settle on an alloy I add tin and antimony to a pot of pure lead until a cast boolit weight exactely as before.

As an example a 303 boolit in pure lead weighs 204.8gn, a cast boolit from alloy 192.6gn. To duplicate that alloy add elements which will make a cast boolit lighter until it weighs 192.6gns.

[M-Tecs]

Good info on the subject here

http://www.texas-mac.com/Weight_Variations_in_BPCR_Cast_Bullets.html

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?4769-Cast-Bullet-Weight-Variations

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?404011-Average-weight

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/ammolytics-bullet-sorting-experiment-part-one.3971874/

https://blog.ammolytics.com/2019-02-02/bullet-sorting-part-one.html

http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=112112

https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/10886-casting-weight-variations/

[Half Dog]

I group the different weights and shoot them together.

[Larry Gibson]

Given this is a sub forum for military rifles I'd venture that unless you are shooting CBA matches or NRA matches weighing bullets and cases is a waste of time let alone an exercise in frustration. This because 99% of military rifles will never be able to use match level weight sorting of cases or bullets as they have neither the sights nor the inherent accuracy to utilize any benefits of such techniques. Just keep the cases separated by headstamp if you want to and visually cull bullets out that have a visible defect.

If you are match shooting then sort the cases by headstamp and do a search for my posts on how to properly weight sort cast bullets.

[Rapier]

Some military rifles will shoot, some will not shoot, same as the shooters themselves. It is up to you to cull your guns for mach shooting.

If you want to shoot in matches and you are capable, then once you learn the basics, 90% of actual match shooting becomes the mental aspect. Within that mental aspect you never want any doubt about your ammunition, creeping into the process. Most real good shooters do everything they can to create absolute confidence in their ammunition, and their gun way before the match.

Where does the creation of the accurate ammunition end, exactly where and when you are satisfied that you have done everything you can do, in the preparation, for match accuracy. Now it is not about hitting the big target, it is the shoot off that can come, just one round counts in the end. So how important is one round, every single round?

[Edward]

Some military rifles will shoot, some will not shoot, same as the shooters themselves. It is up to you to cull your guns for mach shooting.

If you want to shoot in matches and you are capable, then once you learn the basics, 90% of actual match shooting becomes the mental aspect. Within that mental aspect you never want any doubt about your ammunition, creeping into the process. Most real good shooters do everything they can to create absolute confidence in their ammunition, and their gun way before the match.

Where does the creation of the accurate ammunition end, exactly where and when you are satisfied that you have done everything you can do, in the preparation, for match accuracy. Now it is not about hitting the big target, it is the shoot off that can come, just one round counts in the end. So how important is one round, every single round?

Ask Larry as he knows ,even in the most serious match's (sniper)

[BLAHUT]

Hello,
Want to do a little experimenting. To those who weigh their cast bullets and brass what is your cut-off for non use? +or- how many grains? I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks!!!

I weigh all bullets and brass to .01 gr and sort to their weight and shoot in groups by only that weight.
Any weight out of the groups, I use for practice. For competition, every round in the boxes weigh exactly the same. A lot has to do with volume inside of brass, clean - dirty, so all have the same size for combustion.

[Winger Ed.]

I keep rifle brass separate by head stamps, boolits separate in batches from a run with the pot.
If the boolits look good as they drop, I keep 'em.

If there is one or two percent difference in their weights- I figure it would make a difference in how high they hit.
But for a full grain or even two on a 170 or 190 gr., it'd probably be barely an inch at 100 yards.
Boolits that are less than one percent of being the same weight--
I don't have such a rifle, and I'm not a good enough shot to tell the difference.


Handgun boolits & brass all go in together.
I keep the loaded ammo separate by loadings with the same powder charge.

I've tried all that hair splitting and head scratching over handgun ammo.
At 25 yards with not so tricked out pistols- I couldn't tell any difference.
If one group was 2" and another was 3" or 3 1/2-- I'm OK with them.

[LAGS]

When I first started reloading back in the 70's.
I tried weighing all the bullets and cases , and even matched them up by checking the CC capacity of the cases.
It was a lot of work and just didn't seem worth it for the rifles and handguns I was shooting.
I have seen benchrest shooters do this.
Again , it didn't make that much difference except for really long ranges.
But I do match up cases by Head stamps and number of times they have been reloaded.
That saves a lot of time and effort for the average shooter.
But if you are going for Olympic Accuracy, there is other things you can do like Totally matching the case and Boolit weights and making all the case necks consistant by sizing them and reaming them to match perfect.

[Winger Ed.]

But if you are going for Olympic Accuracy,

Something I've seen more than once when somebody has put a rifle on the bench that is worth more than my truck:

They'll bring premeasured vials of powder, shoot and reload the same case for their group.
It is also marked so it lays in the chamber the same way each time.

I always thought that was a little bit more tedious than I was willing to do.
But they produced a lot of one hole groups too.

[justindad]

Something I've seen more than once when somebody has put a rifle on the bench that is worth more than my truck:

They'll bring premeasured vials of powder, shoot and reload the same case for their group.
It is also marked so it lays in the chamber the same way each time.

I always thought that was a little bit more tedious than I was willing to do.
But they produced a lot of one hole groups too.

That’s pretty cool. I would never want to do that, but still cool to see someone so dedicated and succeeding.

[M-Tecs]

I weigh all bullets and brass to .01 gr and sort to their weight and shoot in groups by only that weight.
Any weight out of the groups, I use for practice. For competition, every round in the boxes weigh exactly the same. A lot has to do with volume inside of brass, clean - dirty, so all have the same size for combustion.

Interesting. What scale are you using that has 100th of a grain resolution?

[M-Tecs]

Got it. I am shooting old military rifles at 100, 200, and 300 yards. So, I am guessing somewhere in between your requirements. I get where you are coming from w/ the 1,000 yard shooting. Every little thing matters in that sport.

For your application plus or minus a grain will not be noticeable. Just for reference the POI difference between a 530 grain and a 535 grain 45 cal. bullet at yards is 0.7 of an inch elevation at 500 yards at typical BPCR velocities.

Spending your time shooting will be much more beneficial than weighing bullets, brass and primers. Until you get to the point that the national level shooters are looking over their shoulder at you being OCD will not be a benefit and if it takes away trigger time it may be a hindrance.

Some light reading on the subject.

https://blog.ammolytics.com/2020-01-08/brass-sorting-part-one.html

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=549685

https://www.bisonops.com/2021/03/18/measuring-cartridge-case-volume/

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/case-weight-and-velocity-variance-in-5-different-cartridges.3999238/

[Dutchman]

Interesting. What scale are you using that has 100th of a grain resolution?

Lyman 266673. Only problem with this scale is it maxes out at 308 grains. It measures in grams, grains, carats and I think something else but can't recall it offhand.

https://images49.fotki.com/v268/photos/4/28344/9430776/DSCF2091cb-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/bullet-casting/dscf2091cb.html)

Lee 250 gr .45 RF

https://images49.fotki.com/v292/photos/4/28344/9430776/DSCF2095-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/bullet-casting/dscf2095.html)

Lyman 323470

https://images15.fotki.com/v1674/photos/4/28344/9430776/DSCF2093-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/bullet-casting/dscf2093.html)

[M-Tecs]

What brand is that? Most of the scales of that type are 0.02 grain readout resolution not 0.01 grain. Normally actual scale accuracy tolerance is plus or minus the readout resolution.

With actual check weights the plus or minus 0.02 of a grain scale tolerance is highly questionable unless they are produced at ISO approved/certified facilities. Those tend to start at about $300.

I won a cheap digital caliper that readouts out to 0.0001". When calibrated with standards it's more like plus or minus 0.001"

Like the cheap digital calipers the $20 dollar Amazon and eBay scales tend not to do well when actually calibrated to ISO standards.

[Harter66]

I once had this 06' that earned the tag "Prima Donna" .

I would say that regardless of which forum this is in , there are ways to work the rules and every advantage be taken by a competition driven person .

Back to line 1 on a .5 gn of case weight that 06' would toss at 1.5 gr it would be a new group 12" away . Just .3 gr of IMR 4350 was the difference between .690 5 overlapping holes and 1.6" with 2 torn between . Because it was a hunter and all of the bullets that I did weigh varied less than .05 gr O/U I didn't push that frontier. (Before cast enlightenment) .

I owned anther same make and model in 308 that rifle shot whatever fell in the action inside 2.5" within 4.5" of POH Herters branded PPU , FC ,RP , 1974 Argentine surplus . It literally didn't matter . As long as it was the same Head Stamp and the bullet was under 175 gr it shot , and loading .75 inch load was a breeze .

I had and 03A3 11/43 Rem , for 10 yr I'd load 2 work ups about every 6 months sometimes 4-6 different sets of components I dinked with forend pressure, free float , screw tension , bedding...... Yeah . Firewood and scrap metal were about the only words I can use to describe anything about even remedially positive about that relationship. The final exchange did buy a near new pocket gun so there's that and I almost doubled my money on it so there's that I guess .

It seems that I've owned one of every class , the wonder rifle , the OMG that was too easy a fix (now that I know what it needed) , and the dimensionally perfect possessed never going to shoot how did it clear QC even in the desperate days of war PO.......er ..... delightful specimen of craftsmanship.

I've owned a number of wardogs besides the 03' and some of them were just as colorful and boring .

To turn a phrase "it matters when it does " . Every variable you remove up front is one you don't have to chase later .

[Dutchman]

What brand is that? Most of the scales of that type are 0.02 grain readout resolution not 0.01 grain. Normally actual scale accuracy tolerance is plus or minus the readout resolution.

With actual check weights the plus or minus 0.02 of a grain scale tolerance is highly questionable unless they are produced at ISO approved/certified facilities. Those tend to start at about $300.

I won a cheap digital caliper that readouts out to 0.0001". When calibrated with standards it's more like plus or minus 0.001"

Like the cheap digital calipers the $20 dollar Amazon and eBay scales tend not to do well when actually calibrated to ISO standards.

You asked about a scale that reads out to 1/100th of a grain. I provided images of the scale I use that reads out to .01 grain, which is 1/100th of a grain. Beyond that I have no interest in debating the issue further.

Dutch

[M-Tecs]

You asked about a scale that reads out to 1/100th of a grain. I provided images of the scale I use that reads out to .01 grain, which is 1/100th of a grain. Beyond that I have no interest in debating the issue further.

Dutch

No, the images your provided show .02 of a grain which is 1/50 of a grain (153.94, 252.92 and 161.18). I did am image search and located one that looks exactly like the one you pictured.

https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Weigh-GEM20-Precision-Milligram/dp/B00ESHDGOI/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=jewelry+digital+scale&qid=1673560701&sr=8-7
Smart Weigh GEM20-20g x 0.001 grams, High Precision Digital Milligram Jewelry Scale, Reloading, Jewelry and Gems Scale, Calibration Weights and Tweezers Included
-15% $18.69

Its 0.001 grams which is +/- 0.01543235835 grains on the display which is why it reads in 0.02 increments. The displayed verse actual weights is the real question.

I have not tested this particular scale but at $18.69 I just ordered one out of curiosity. We'll see how it does with actual calibration weights? Others of this type have not tested well.

This has been my go-to scale for about a dozen years. https://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/denver-instrument-mxx-123-test/ It tests out very well but it's also a 0.02 grain.

Normally to get a true 0.01 grain scale you need to spend about a grand.

I am also considering this one. https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/creedmoor-reloading-scale-trx-925-precision?avad=53743_b2da1f9f5&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=Avantlink&utm_campaign=39743&cid=aff_53743

Introducing the TRX-925 precision digital reloading scale by Creedmoor Sports. Our development team set out to create one of the most accurate and precise scales on the market that directly meet the needs of reloaders who are looking for the pinnacle of performance. To achieve this level of precision and accuracy, the team focused on the needs of reloaders first and foremost, and worked to develop a high-performance scale that aims to be the premier reloading scale on the market.

Our specialized programming of the TRX-925 sets the Creedmoor Sports TRX-925 apart from other scales in the market. While measuring in grains may seem like the norm, the vast majority of scales on the market utilize grams as their native unit of measure and simply convert the measured weight from grams to grains by using a formula. Unfortunately, this method of behind-the-scenes conversion generates significant rounding errors that can affect the reported weight. With the ability of the TRX-925 to read down to 0.01 grains, eliminating the gram/grain conversion process, making this scale the only reloading scale that offers true +/-.01 grain accuracy and measuring natively in grains was an absolute must to achieve the level of accuracy the Creedmoor Sports TRX-925 demonstrates.


Yes it reads down to 0.01 but the claimed accuracy is +/-.01 grain but it's about 1/3 the cost of scales that hold a total accuracy of 0.01 grain.

Some pointers here how to get the most from your digital scale
https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/10/ten-commandments-for-use-of-electronic-scales/

[charlie b]

I stopped weighing brass. I do use brass purchased in one package.

My method is to track muzzle velocities. If a round is a bit high or low comparted to the rest then I mark it. If it falls out of the average again, I put it in the 'plinker' bin. As long as I can get 0.5MOA with jacketed and 1MOA with cast I am happy.

If I were a serious competitor in benchrest or long range precision I'd sort the brass by volume (size, trim and water weight).

Bullets for long range I weight sort to 0.1gn. For the Garand I only sort to 0.5gn (open sights just aren't that accurate for me anymore).