Copper in alloying

[0311]

Have a good question. Can you bring the copper count up in lead by using never seize for a harder bullet? New to the casting and driving trk all day my mind is thinking of this stuff. Thanks

[popper]

No. Copper in plain lead will float to the top and never mix in. It will combine with antimony only! And much easier and cheaper to use root killer which removes tin/zinc and combines with the antimony. I've only used the aluminum filled anti-seize (o2 sensor) which is mostly silicon grease. Used copper gasket sealer on motorcycle heads but it wasn't cheap.

[0311]

Okay thanks I was just thinking

[MT Gianni]

One of the easiest ways though not the cheapest is to mix Roto-metals alloy with pure.

[William Yanda]

Popper
I think I have read that thin copper wires will dissolve in molten tin.

[Soundguy]

If you want a little copper in your alloy..add in a Babbitt that has copper in it. Adds hardness and durability without the drastic loss of weight like super high antimony alloys like linotype. Yes..the alloy will still need tin and antimony..but it will already be in the Babbitt.

[Krh1326]

I have been adding copper, regularly. Now, I’m a retired Steamfitter, and I have a lot of stuff that some folk might not have, and may feel that it is expensive, or time consuming. The materials that I mention, came home with me , from various job sites, over the years… I did not have the cost of purchasing them.
I had a case of Sterling Solder, which is high tin, and contains copper, to start with. I melted many rolls down, and started introducing stripped copper wire, while also spooning little bits of utility solder flux. Fine braided copper “dissolves” quickly… the thicker solid wire takes a little bit longer. This process is called “Tinning”. The copper really isn’t melting into an alloy, it is breaking down at molecular levels, and bonding with the tin. I feed the copper into the pot of tin, until it seems to be saturated…. The copper wire stops “dissolving” into the tin.
I poured this tin / cooper “alloy” into muffin tins, and these pucks become my tin base. I purchased antimony chunks and “shot”… that is my antimony. I have large quantities of pure lead from X-ray room sheets and loads of lead pipe…. Which is my lead source.

What ever alloy/ BHN / formula I need … I just use the percentages and blend my tin pucks, some of the pure lead pucks, and the antimony chunks or shot . I have found that is the easiest way to get the antimony in. I’ve been prepared to use an oxy/ acet torch, to assist alloying the antimony, but have not needed to use it yet. Then add the rest of my calculated pure lead.

Works for me….your mileage may vary. :)

[Soundguy]

The copper dissolving thing is legit. We had to learn that in electronics / soldering.

[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve heard it said, that tinned fine stranded speaker wire works.

[dtknowles]

I think the key is to understand that you are disolving the copper not melting it so other factors are more important than temperature. Clean or tin the copper. Powder or fine wire not chunks. Yes, the easy button it to use copper babbitt.
Tim

[justindad]

The problem with babbit is that it has 10X more antimony than copper.

[Soundguy]

That's not a problem..its just a fact. Copper itself is still very refill even in under 1% concentrations. And like tertiary alloys.. It all helps.

[dtknowles]

The problem with babbit is that it has 10X more antimony than copper.

Not so, this from Rotometals website.

(Babbitt Bearing Grade 1 Alloy Ingot is a high tin alloy that works well for high speed applications. It contains approximately 91% Tin, 4.5% Copper, and 4.5% Antimony. The melting temperature is 433 F and the pouring temperature is 825 F. Each ingot weighs approximately 1 pound 3/4" x 1-1/2" x 4".

This Grade 3 Super Tough Babbitt Bearing Alloy consists of approximately 84% Tin, 8% Copper, and 8% Antimony. The melting temperature is 464 F and the proper pouring temperature 915 F. Each ingot weighs approximately 1 lbs and measures 3/4" x 1-1/2" x 4".)

9.5 pounds of COWW and one-half pound of Grade 3 babbitt would give you 10 pounds of alloy with 92% lead, 5% tin, 3% Antimony, and 0.5% copper.

Tim

[Soundguy]

And .5% copper is a useable concentration.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Babbit is the easy way to go.
I've fired bullets of 50/50 COWW and range scrap lubed with Rooster Red at 2300 fps from .303 British without leading. As accurate as factory. Mold was Lee 185 gr RFN.

[yeahbub]

The solubility of copper in high percentage tin alloys (95/5 tin/antimony lead-free plumbing solder) is a great reason to not use lead-free plumbing solder on electrical connections. It'll solder great, but where the solder coats the copper, the crosse-sectional area of the wire will be reduced. Eventually, through vibration or movement, the wire will break off where the solder stopped.

[justindad]

92% lead, 5% tin, 3% Antimony, and 0.5% copper.



10X tin and 6X antimony doesn’t fit my curiosity in copper. Admittedly, I’m the oddball here.

[dtknowles]

And .5% copper is a useable concentration.

That is what I have been led to believe.

From one source "it's still impressive that .5% copper can almost completely surround 2-3% antimony and even more astonishing is it will do it when you water drop the alloy ...anyway the copper bonds in with the Sb for the most part even though it needs the Sn [at about a 3 to 1 ratio] to get into solution using some of the home methods.
it helps keep the antimony crystals from breaking down under pressure which helps hold the lead in place/shape not allowing it to move as much/as soon."

Tim

[dtknowles]

10X tin and 6X antimony doesn’t fit my curiosity in copper. Admittedly, I’m the oddball here.

Not sure what you are looking for?

here (https://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=307613&d=1670188945&thumb=1 and https://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=307615&d=1670188970&thumb=1 are XRF for two of my copper alloys, I did it the hard way with tinned copper wire clippings.

Tim

[rockrat]

I usually run about .2% copper on my lead alloy I blend for certain boolits. Water cooled, it seems its more than enough copper

[Soundguy]

The solubility of copper in high percentage tin alloys (95/5 tin/antimony lead-free plumbing solder) is a great reason to not use lead-free plumbing solder on electrical connections. It'll solder great, but where the solder coats the copper, the crosse-sectional area of the wire will be reduced. Eventually, through vibration or movement, the wire will break off where the solder stopped.

'yeah but' Remember soldering 101.. what we were taught is that solder is not meant to be a mechanical joint.. it's an electrical connection. .. and that's why wires to boards were secured with a drop of glue.. or put in multi strand high density connectors... and then boards are shock mounted usually with insulated nylon or phenolic stand offs.. to prevent that movement and vibration...

[popper]

Copper bonds to antimony in a 1:5 ratio. I don't use tin (1:1 ratio). so .002/.01 will help but .005/.025 is better. It can go to .005/.08, Sb is in excess. I've gone to .02/.05 (WDd) and get BHN equal to superhard ingot. Shot great, not brittle at all but not really needed. And you better size right after casting or PCing.

[justindad]

Wikipedia:
Commercial copper sulfate is usually about 98% pure copper sulfate, and may contain traces of water. Anhydrous copper sulfate is 39.81 percent copper and 60.19 percent sulfate by mass, and in its blue, hydrous form, it is 25.47% copper, 38.47% sulfate (12.82% sulfur) and 36.06% water by mass.

To get 0.2% Cu into 1 lb of alloy with a minimum of 1% Sb, you would need 14 grains of Cu. There’s 14 grains of Cu inside of 55 grains of blue Root Kill… bump that up to 56.1 grains for the 98% purity.
*
The molar mass of Zn is 65.392 g/mol and the molar mass of Cu is 63.546 g/mol. So 14.4 grains of Zn can be exchanged for 14.0 grains of Cu.
*
So melt 14.4 grains of Zn wheel weight into 1 lb of alloy, then flux it with 56.1 grains of root kill to get 0.2% Cu in the alloy.
*
Does anyone see any errors in that math?