1:16, a few questions

[Jevyod]

I have always worked with coww or a mixture of coww/pure. I am getting into muzzleloaders, and was encouraged to use a 1:16 alloy. 2 questions, any real problem using pewter instead of tin at the same 1:16 ratio? 2nd question, at what velocity does the alloy stop reliably expanding? I am getting 1600 fps muzzle velocity (lee 452-300 with a sabot) and trying to figure out my max range. Thanks!

[BLAHUT]

I use only pure lead at about 1200FPS or a tad less. Does not really not expand. Best mix for big slow flat nose bullets.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Pewter is a poor choice, you'll end up with a alloy that's harder the 16:1

[Sam Sackett]

Pewter is usually 96 - 99% tin. Use it just as you would use tin when alloying lead.

Sam Sackett

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Were you told "why" to use 16:1 ?
FYI, I've learned if you ask a question to a bunch of people who shoot front stuffers, you'll likely get a bunch of different answers.
Here's my answer, I use 200:1
That is 0.5% tin, it's just enough Tin to not change the hardness any measurable amount, but is enough Tin to inhibit corrosion/oxidation.
That's my 2¢

[triggerhappy243]

were you told "why" to use 16:1 ?
Fyi, i've learned if you ask a question to a bunch of people who shoot front stuffers, you'll likely get a bunch of different answers.
Here's my answer, i use 200:1
that is 0.5% tin, it's just enough tin to not change the hardness any measurable amount, but is enough tin to inhibit corrosion/oxidation.
That's my 2¢

tin also aides in mold fillout.

[Rickf1985]

16-1 is 11bhn which is a bit high for muzzle loading isn't it?

And using a 16 pure to 1 pewter will give you 15.6 bhn. Way to high for black powder and muzzleloading! That is regular rifle territory.

[hc18flyer]

I have not had trouble with pure lead 'fillout' in muzzle loading conical. Save your tin and pewter. hc18flyer

[HWooldridge]

He mentioned using a sabot - that adds a wrinkle where an alloy could work.

To answer the OP question, expansion is dependent on many variables, one of which is the intended game. If you have been successfully using 1:16, then feel free to continue. With regard to using pewter vs tin, just base the decision on the final Brinell hardness, rather than an exact ratio. In other words, 1:18 in pewter might be equivalent to 1:16 tin for your application.

[Land Owner]

Investigate the ratio (1 part in X parts):
1:10 = 10% Tin
1:16 = 6.25%
1:20 = 5%
1:40 = 2.5%
1:50 = 2%
1:100 = 1%
1:200 = 0.5%

Consider the cost of alloy @ $10.00 per pound of Tin and @ $1.00 per pound of Lead
1:10 = (1# x $10.00) + (9# x $1.00) = $19.00 for 10 pounds of alloy = $1.90 per pound
1:16 = (1# x $10.00) + (15# x $1.00) = $25.00 for 16 pounds = $1.56 per pound
1:20 = $29.00 for 20#'s = $1.45 per pound
1:30 = $1.30 per pound
1:40 = $1.23 per pound
1:50 = $1.18 per pound
1:100 = $1.09 per pound
1:200 = $1.05 per pound

Now consider how many times you will pull the trigger?

Let us help you understand how to save money...and keep shooting.

[lightman]

I see no problem using Pewter in place of tin as it contains 90+ percent tin. But I use pure lead, or as pure as I can find, in my muzzle loader.

[Jevyod]

So you all would use pure, even at 1600-1800 fps? Wouldn't that flatten too much?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've never noticed any "over" expansion with 200-1, but my charge of 75 gr of BP doesn't get anywhere near 1600fps.

[Dinny]

Pure lead bullets were used effectively for a long, long time before any of us walked this planet. Let the weight and length of the bullet do their job and kill with authority - period, plain, and simple.

[triggerhappy243]

What rifle are you working with?

[Jevyod]

I am working with a CVA Wolf muzzleloader, 1:28 twist, 50 Caliber. Planning on using the Lee 452-300 in sabots, in the 1600-1800 fps range

[Rickf1985]

To me that is not true muzzle loading so figuring out hardness for it is out the window. You are using a 45 cal. bullet inside of a sabot, which I assume is plastic. So this is not really true muzzle loading with bullet and lubed patch. Does a saboted bullet depend in obturation for barrel sealing?

You will have to excuse my ignorance here since I shoot soft round balls out of a caplock.

[Larry Gibson]

I use 16-1 alloy cast Maxi Bals in my TC Blk Mtn Magnum 50 cal. I push them at 1570 fps with excellent accuracy. The 16-1 alloy gave the best accuracy when the non-saboted bullet is pushed that hard. I also use the 16-1 alloy in GC'd bullets pushed to 1400 - 1600 fps. With saboted cast bullets in that rifle pushed up to 2000 fps I've found 20-1 alloy to work just fine.
Expansion with either alloy will be quite sufficient given that muzzle velocity to any reasonable range. Your max range will depend on how reliably (meaning 1st shot every time) you could hit the kill zone (say a 6" bulls eye).

[Tripplebeards]

I crossed that bridge 5 years ago and finally figured out how to mix it properly a few months back LOL. I first realized I had to melt a bunch of pewter and get the hardness to figure out the ratio. My current batch to 16 to 1 I started with 21 or 22 Burnell hardness...don't remember between the 1 bh difference right now. I mixed 16 to 1 and got about 10 or 10.2 BH. I had to mix it 8/1 to get 11 bh which I what 16/1 should be.

[Jevyod]

16-1 is 11bhn which is a bit high for muzzle loading isn't it?

And using a 16 pure to 1 pewter will give you 15.6 bhn. Way to high for black powder and muzzleloading! That is regular rifle territory.

I ran the numbers on the spreadsheet and according to what I was able to ascertain 16 pure to 1 pewter gave me 10.5 bhn. Not sure the 15.6 is correct!

[Rickf1985]

I just ran them again and got the same result, 15.6 bhn on 17 lbs of alloy. I don't know how to make a screen shot bigger.

[Rickf1985]

Click on the chart and you can barely make it out.

308836

[Jevyod]

fascinating, mine shows 10.5??!!! I can't quite tell, what does the bottom composition show on your chart?? Mine shows
5.44% tin, 0.35% antimony, 0% arsenic, .09% copper, 0% silver, and 94.1% lead for a hardness of 10.5!

[Jevyod]

Ok I looked again, yours is showing 5% antimony which is way high. Pewter has about that, but when adding 16lbs pure, no way should it be 5%!

[Rickf1985]

I see that, interesting that the maker of the chart decided to go to the high end of the antimony scale for pewter. One other thing you will find with this chart that I really do not like is the pure lead figures. Take the pewter out of the equation so there is nothing but pure lead. Notice that the bhn for pure lead is listed as 5. click enter, you will see that it now shows bhn of 8.6 even though the value for the pure lead is 5.
This is where the mixing cross comes in handy. If you know the values of the lead and pewter you can enter them in the cross and get exact figures back out.

[Rickf1985]

If you go to the next step down from the pewter which is lead free solder you will get the 10.2 you were looking at since it has no antimony in it. It is also the value that we all use for pewter, I have never heard anybody even talk about antimony in pewter.

[fredj338]

I ran the numbers on the spreadsheet and according to what I was able to ascertain 16 pure to 1 pewter gave me 10.5 bhn. Not sure the 15.6 is correct!

I think you are closer to 11 than 15 for sure @ 16-1. Since you are running in a sabot, alloy isnt that important. If you want penetration & some expansion, you might even want a bit harder bullet @ 1600fps. I would look at accuracy then test some in wetpack for expansion @ your desired impact distance. You can always down load to test at closer, make sure I get a good hit distance.

[rmark]

The notes at the bottom of the calculator why 8.6 bhn is used as a starting value.

[Rickf1985]

The notes at the bottom of the calculator why 8.6 bhn is used as a starting value.

I understand that but I have soft lead that tests at BHN5. So if I am using the calculator toy work up an alloy I am already 3.6 points off right from the start and no way of knowing where to go from there. I am moving more and more to the mixing cross that Wiederlander uses. It uses real values. The problem with the cross is that it only works off of BHN and not actual alloy materials.

[white eagle]

Is 16/1 about alloy composition not bhn numbers?

[Rickf1985]

It is about an alloy composition to attain a certain BHN, or hardness, depending on how you look at it. People were mixing 16/1 long before BHN was even thought about.

[white eagle]

I just shot a 245 gr boolit cast from ww and pc'd with bacon grease out of my
40 cal muzzleloader and I bet that was going well over 2000 fps might be closer to 2500 fps
at any rate I think that the parameters that you are dealing with your alloy will work out just
fine especially when using a sabot you should care not about your alloy the sabot will compensate for
any irregularities in your alloy
A 45 cal boolit makes a big hole to start with

[Gobeyond]

So it sounds like 200:1 would be enough or 40:1. Why use so much tin. Why are you purists using so much, or who told you.
I think soft is better with a good mold fill out. If 200:1 will do it save the tin for rifles over 1400 FPS. But I’m not a hunter. The guy with the 40 cal at 2400 FPS. Are you kiddin. How much substitute did you use to get that?

[RugerFan]

Why does a 45 cal bullet “need” to expand. You’re punching a nearly 1/2” hole through game with a good transfer of energy when that big slug hits.

Case in point: I once shot a buck with a 180 gn jacketed bullet out of a .308 Win. That recovered bullet mushroomed beautifully. Almost perfectly round and measured .448”x.452”. Terminal performance was outstanding as intended. How big do you need the hole to be?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[white eagle]

16-1 is 11bhn which is a bit high for muzzle loading isn't it?

And using a 16 pure to 1 pewter will give you 15.6 bhn. Way to high for black powder and muzzleloading! That is regular rifle territory.

that is selling muzzleloaders short isn't it
I can get 2700 fps out of my muzzleloader with 250 gr bullets
that is kinda REGULAR rifle territory is it not?
in case you haven't checked but muzzleloaders have come a long way since Danl Boone carried one

[Rickf1985]

There are true muzzle loaders and then there are todays modern version of them just to get around some of the laws.

[megasupermagnum]

No, I don't think pure lead is inappropriate for a 1600 fps muzzleloader bullet at all. It will perform really well. 16:1 is fine too. In my experience a pure lead solid bullet will expand down to somewhere just under 1000 fps. A 16:1 solid bullet I would expect to expand somewhere down to about 1300 fps.

[Larry Gibson]

Were you told "why" to use 16:1 ?
FYI, I've learned if you ask a question to a bunch of people who shoot front stuffers, you'll likely get a bunch of different answers.
Here's my answer, I use 200:1
That is 0.5% tin, it's just enough Tin to not change the hardness any measurable amount, but is enough Tin to inhibit corrosion/oxidation.
That's my 2¢

I use pretty much the same lead tin, or 40-1 alloy, for use with tight patched RBs up through 1960 fps and R.E.A.Ls up through 1100 fps in my 45 and 50 cal muzzle loaders. Those alloys work splendidly with those applications. However, I have found through thorough testing a harder alloy is needed to push 370 gr 50 cal maxi Balls out of the 50 cal [TC Black Mountain Magnum] at 1570 fps. The harder 16-1 alloy is needed for the bare lubed bullet to withstand the acceleration and maintain accuracy. Expantion on game is very good but then, with a 50 cal bullet to bigin with, is expansion really needed?

In a saboted or otherwise patched bullet that hard of an alloy may not be required as the sabot/patching may adequately support the bullet during acceleration. Another case of "it depends" as to what alloy is needed based on the circumstance of use. Thus, testing for the particular circumstance of use is the only real way to know.

[white eagle]

There are true muzzle loaders and then there are todays modern version of them just to get around some of the laws.

load from muzzle
hence the name Muzzleloader
can't quite square that

[centershot]

So you all would use pure, even at 1600-1800 fps? Wouldn't that flatten too much?

This is the velocity you get from a .50 caliber muzzle loader loaded with a patched round ball. That load has been killing deer for a couple centuries now. Over-expansion? I'd say not.

[Larry Gibson]

With the soft cast patched RB I get 1960 fps for my 150 yard accuracy load out of slower twist 45 cal ML. With the fast twist 50 cal 1600 fps +/- is about as fast as I can push the soft cast RB and maintain accuracy past 50 yards.