Swage way to go ?

[KCSO]

Buckshot

Another goodie from the bottom of the Herter's box is a Herters bullet swage marked 452A. It is still new in the original box and had a tin of ANDEROL lube with it. It looks like it will make a Kieth type semi wadcutter bullet. I have never swaged, any tips. The instruction are missing. I just wanted to reform some rn to sw bullets.

[Cherokee]

Never did any myself but I recall that the lead has to be very soft. Changing the RN bullets into SWC might a tough if the starting bullets are hard cast.
:castmine:

[Bullshop]

I have an old Herters swage press. It is black octigon shapped extreamly heavy duty and is mounted horizontaly. It will swage straight WW alloy no problem. It can swage 41's into 44's or 44's into 45's. It will swag a straight WW 44 RN into a 45 SWC HP with little effort and eject from the die just as easily.
What I do is to size and lube the boolits in thier origonaly intended cal first, then if I want to change them swage them with lube already in the grooves.
Of cource I have been doing this with BS Speed Green in the grooves, Ha Magic!!!
BIC/BS

[Lead pot]

Years ago I had that Herters 20 ton press and swagged a Lot of 1/2 jacket bullets with it. it's a tough press but you can blow a die with using to hard of a core or if the core is to long were it is extended past the top of the die.
The nose punch is what gives if it is not supported by the die walls.
Using lead wire is the way to go with that set up or you can make a or buy a adjustable core mould from one of the Corbin's. I had an old .38 caliber gang mould that I bored out for a core mould.
That Die is it by chance a grease groove die? if it is you will have to have a regular die swage the bullet then run it through the GG swage.
All in all it is a tough press.


LP.

[Buckshot]

Buckshot

Another goodie from the bottom of the Herter's box is a Herters bullet swage marked 452A. It is still new in the original box and had a tin of ANDEROL lube with it. It looks like it will make a Kieth type semi wadcutter bullet. I have never swaged, any tips. The instruction are missing. I just wanted to reform some rn to sw bullets.

...............I'm not familiar with it, so I don't know if it's complete. Some swage dies have a core forming die, a core seating die and then a final die to bring the slug to final shape. These would be for a jacketed slug.

A swage die for lead slugs could have 2 dies (core and shape) or one die only which is used to swage an existing slug. I've made several swage dies over the years, and they've been the type where you have an existing boolit to alter.

http://www.fototime.com/7CA2B3C3EC5D49E/standard.jpg
The swage die above is mounted in your reloading press and a previously lube slug is used, as below:

http://www.fototime.com/069CB1A7DC6AF34/standard.jpg
The die alters the original slug into a kind of a SWC with a hollowbase, or by changing the nose plug, a full wad cutter with hollow base. By making another base plunger you could form a solid base , and with other nose punches you could make other nose profiles.

http://www.fototime.com/820D61686DA0E42/standard.jpg
This is a swage die I made many years ago to be used in a hydraulic bench press. On the left behind the unswaged Pritchit Minie' is the nose punch which is also the base. To the right is the die body itself. You set the die body down over the nose punch and then drop a Minie' in from the top. To the right is the base punch. This goes into the die and is what the hydraulic ram pushes on.

Normally the press had a 12 ton bottlejack for powder. A weensy too much oomph. With the swage die a 4 ton is just right. When it comes up solid the boolit is done. The 2 slugs in the center (above) are what is formed from the parent to either side. The idea was to create .593" Minie's to use in a 3 band Snider rifle.

http://www.fototime.com/7E062D887B21B61/standard.jpg
This is a hammer type swage die I made for a friend, although you could use it with a hydraulic press. He'd discovered that 30M1 carbine brass could be used to make bullets for 35 cal rifles. He has a Whelen. You fill a carbine case with molten lead and then once cool, stick it in the bottom of the die body.

The diebody sits on the base (left) and then the plunger (right) goes in the top of the die. You smack the plunger to compress the lead in the carbine case and to expand the case against the die walls. Lift the die off the base, tap the plunger and the case falls out. Missing is a photo of the nose forming setup. Pretty much the same except the base of the case is driven against to force the nose to assume it's round nose form. There is a central rod you then insert through a hole, against the nose and the bullet is ejected.

http://www.fototime.com/33E1CE1D5D95675/standard.jpg
An adjustable 5 cavity core mould.

http://www.fototime.com/C3EE3AD183E490A/standard.jpg
A single swage die set to turn the cores into.............

http://www.fototime.com/F5B2831828DBFE3/standard.jpg
These cup based hollowpointed slugs for the Whitworth and Rigby muzzle loaders. Actually YOU have to paper patch them 8) it WOULD be nice if the swage did that too. These are used in a press made by Richard Corbin (RCE Enterprises).

................Buckshot

[KCSO]

The die I have makes a sw bullet just like the one in your #2. I assume it was originally made to produce 1/2 jacked bullets. My intention was to use it to reform soft lead 255's from r/n to the s/w form. I tried it last night and whoever said that the big Herters 81 press was capable of swageing is f.o.s. I was able to get a bullet squeezed into a s/w, but I had to hang on the handle of the press like a monkey on a stick. I see now why the swage was new and still in the box. I figure that I should be able to make s/w bullets at the rate of at least 6 or 8 a day, phooey, I will just cast them instead.

[45 2.1]

I have the large old Herters "O" frame press and the swage die you listed. I never had any problems swageing freshly cast lubricated bullets with it. Do it within one day and it works fine, wait a few days and it probably would be difficult. It turns the Lyman 452460 into a very nice SWC.

[KCSO]

I tried again tonight with some pure lead round balls and they swaged up nice into little wad cutters. I am going to cast some 230 t/c bullets tomorrow and try again while they are fresh. The ones I tried the other night were w/w and were about a year old.

[Buckshot]

.............KCSO, does that Herter's press have compound linkage? Probably not if you say you're having to use a lot of effort. The Rockchucker with the die I made smooshes even pretty hard (harder then WW) cast boolits easily. Those in the photo were pretty hard.

You can apply tremendous pressure with compound linkage, and especially near the top of the stroke where the handle leverage is highest. I was swaging up some pure lead slugs and when I got done I pulled that threaded stop/guide insert and there was a bunch of extruded lead bits that had passed between the die body and the nose forming punch.

...............Buckshot

[KCSO]

Buckshot
The die I have has a rather long bottom ram and this puts the handle of the press at the top of the stroke at the start of the process. I replaced that piece with a push thru sizer part that brought the press to the mid point of the stroke and that made a real difference. I am going to make a ram with a hollow base attachment and see how that works. Heretr's said the press was "suitable for swage work" and we all know that George would NOT lie. I do have a job for this press when I get a die made. I want to turn r/n bullets into flat points for my Lebels.

[D.Mack]

KCSO The one thing I didnt see mentioned, is on that old press you probably need to lubricate the lead cores. I have one on my bench that I rarly use, but lubing the cores makes a world of difference. Bullshop said he can swage them into diferent calibers, with ease, but he was using lubed bullets. Somewhere in my shop is an old corbin manual, if I can find it , I'll see what he recomends, probably his own brand. DM

[Buckshot]

..................Probably one of the best is good ole Lanolin.

................Buckshot

[KCSO]

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa...

The Herter's press will swage.

I was wrong.

I talked to the former owner today and found out I was using the wrong piece for a bottom ram. The tool I was using was a shaft for a push through sizer and the right tool is a little stubby thing that has a bleed hole in the bottom. When it is set up correctly the press operates on the last inch of travel and the bullet is finished as the press goes over center. With the right ram and the press set up correctly I can handily make 255 s/w from 255 r/n with no problem. He also told me he used the anderol lube (Lanolin) on a pad to lube the bullets prior to swaging and that also helps. The first bullet I did correctly, my jaw dropped at how easy it is. I can also take w/w 230's and smoosh them into nice looking wad cutters. Now that I know whats what i am going to turn a ram to do the old hollow base like on the original Colt bullets.

Thanks all !!!

[45 2.1]

The bottom on mine is solid and fits into a solid shellholder like a normal cartridge. The nose punch has the bleed hole in it. Good Luck on your future swaging.

[KCSO]

On mine the nose punch rides in grooves and the bottom ram looks just like a 45 acp case made from steel and has the bleed hole and is etched on the side 452 A, the same as the die.

[Swagerman]

KCSO, on your Herter's press problem, the reason you may be having difficulty in swaging is the fact the handle has a linkage bar that attaches to the ram pistions.

I take it the model 81 is the double barrel model with two die stations.

I have a Herter's No. 3 model and had to shorten the linkage bar (has two pin holes on each end) by cutting off nearly a half inch and drilling another pin hole for the pin.

The reason I did this was to make the lever handle leverage easier and it would also top out on the up stroke at a 1/2 inch lower height in the press. The die is adjusted to find its easiest point of swaging break on its highiest top out point.

Hope this makes sense the way I'm describing it.

I had to do this on my Lee Classic press as well, shorten the shellholder nearly a half inch.

My best swaging press is the Herter's Super O Maximum press which has a ram piston with a two position adjustable linkage -- that's where I got the idea to shorten the other presses link bars.

It sure do make swaging a lot easier.

Good luck in your press operations.


Jim