.458 socom bullet for subsonic

[bubbadoyle]

I’m in the process of building a .458 socom upper. I’ve waiting on the government to approve my suppressor for it. I’d really appreciate any advice on a good mold that will work in an ar at subsonic velocities and still perform well on game up to large whitetails.


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[makeurownfun]

NOE 500gr Spire point and the 500gr/600gr RF

600gr RF
308557

500gr SP
308558

[Milky Duck]

my experience would lead me to believe the bottom lot shown would be about the worst choice..... your wound at subsonic velocity is going to be like a target arrow pushed through,or a knitting needle unless you hit and destroy central nervous system or major locomotion bones it will be a slow killer... the softest pill with a big hollow point or at least a flat metplate will always be a better option....
if your aim is spot on..subsonic is fun...if your aim is off by even a little bit..inch or two they suck.
if worried about feeding from magazine......you could do a LOT worse than have a single fed hollow point as discribed in chamber and magazine full of reliable feeding rounds underneath,personally I would have no more than 3 subs then potent supers in mag... phit phit phitphit darn its still up or mob of hogs is now on run boom boom boom boom boom.

[DGV]

Something along this style of boolit. WOW! expensive factory stuff. https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=496

[makeurownfun]

my experience would lead me to believe the bottom lot shown would be about the worst choice..... your wound at subsonic velocity is going to be like a target arrow pushed through,or a knitting needle unless you hit and destroy central nervous system or major locomotion bones it will be a slow killer... the softest pill with a big hollow point or at least a flat metplate will always be a better option....
if your aim is spot on..subsonic is fun...if your aim is off by even a little bit..inch or two they suck.
if worried about feeding from magazine......you could do a LOT worse than have a single fed hollow point as discribed in chamber and magazine full of reliable feeding rounds underneath,personally I would have no more than 3 subs then potent supers in mag... phit phit phitphit darn its still up or mob of hogs is now on run boom boom boom boom boom.

They sure put a hurting on Hogs here in the states. But what do I know

My 500 and 600gr RF molds have HP pins as well

[bubbadoyle]

NOE 500gr Spire point and the 500gr/600gr RF

600gr RF
308557

500gr SP
308558

Thanks for the response. This gives me somewhat of an idea what I should be looking for.


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[Rapier]

Subsonic AR.....you can not use flat point pure lead to start with. Look on line get your speed of sound at your actual altitude where you are going to hunt. Say for example it is 1,100 fps, you work back, not up. For the AR you need the bullet to feed 100% regardless and for hogs, you need 100% action function at semi auto.
I would use H-110/296 with the 405 or 525 in a 16" barrel.

Most folks want more velocity, you need less velocity, with an as big as possible meplat that will still function through the mag and the barrel extension on the AR-15 you own.
My RCBS 525 grain 458 mould feeds and functions well in my 45-70s and my 458 Lott bolt guns, should do OK in your SOCOM.
I would not worry about expansion at all, the bullet is going right through a hog or a deer sized critter, regardless.
Been shooting subsonic and super sonic cast in ARs for a couple of decades in a 358. This is my 230 grain 1,000 fps load, 358 and 30 cal.
Just remember you are working with 2.26 OAL in an AR-15. You must work the pressure, timing, speed and feed at the same time. With a single shot you just worry about the speed.
If you can find them still on line, read the postings on line by JD Jones of SSK about his development of the 300 Whisper.

[Milky Duck]

we hunt pigs/hogs normally in scrub country if not in tall timber..so yeah milage will vary.

[makeurownfun]

Subsonic AR.....you can not use flat point pure lead to start with. Look on line get your speed of sound at your actual altitude where you are going to hunt. Say for example it is 1,100 fps, you work back, not up. For the AR you need the bullet to feed 100% regardless and for hogs, you need 100% action function at semi auto.

Most folks want more velocity, you need less velocity, with an as big as possible meplat that will still function through the mag and the barrel extension on the AR-15 you own.

Why can’t you run a flat point lead bullet in an AR? I run these 600gr flat point in my 16” Tromix. Along with many others with no feeding issues?

The COAL is just under 2.1” on these I believe

308619
308620

[reddog81]

Why can’t you run a flat point lead bullet in an AR? I run these 600gr flat point in my 16” Tromix. Along with many others with no feeding issues?


Flat point "pure" lead might be an issue I suppose. I use a hardcast WFN 350 grain in my 450 Bushmaster AR without issue. Too soft and the bullet might just deform and jam into feed ramp.

[bubbadoyle]

Subsonic AR.....you can not use flat point pure lead to start with. Look on line get your speed of sound at your actual altitude where you are going to hunt. Say for example it is 1,100 fps, you work back, not up. For the AR you need the bullet to feed 100% regardless and for hogs, you need 100% action function at semi auto.
I would use H-110/296 with the 405 or 525 in a 16" barrel.

Most folks want more velocity, you need less velocity, with an as big as possible meplat that will still function through the mag and the barrel extension on the AR-15 you own.
My RCBS 525 grain 458 mould feeds and functions well in my 45-70s and my 458 Lott bolt guns, should do OK in your SOCOM.
I would not worry about expansion at all, the bullet is going right through a hog or a deer sized critter, regardless.
Been shooting subsonic and super sonic cast in ARs for a couple of decades in a 358. This is my 230 grain 1,000 fps load, 358 and 30 cal.
Just remember you are working with 2.26 OAL in an AR-15. You must work the pressure, timing, speed and feed at the same time. With a single shot you just worry about the speed.
If you can find them still on line, read the postings on line by JD Jones of SSK about his development of the 300 Whisper.

I’m familiar with the .300 whisper aa’s the predecessor of the .300 blackout. I have a blackout as well that I’ll be shooting suns with as well, I just feel the socom will be a better subsonic option for hunting than the blackout will be.


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[makeurownfun]

Flat point "pure" lead might be an issue I suppose. I use a hardcast WFN 350 grain in my 450 Bushmaster AR without issue. Too soft and the bullet might just deform and jam into feed ramp.

Shooting subsonic? Even a common "wheel weight" alloy is plenty hard enough for subsonic speeds

[bubbadoyle]

They sure put a hurting on Hogs here in the states. But what do I know

My 500 and 600gr RF molds have HP pins as well

I’m considering ordering one of these two molds. Is there any reason you’d suggest the 500 gr or the 600 gr one over the other?


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[makeurownfun]

I’m considering ordering one of these two molds. Is there any reason you’d suggest the 500 gr or the 600 gr one over the other?


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Not in particular no. If you are powdercoating, I will say that the Spire bullet is a little more forgiving. Because if the powdercoat is even a tad too thick, youll be jamming the bullet into the lands really easy. Because of the shorter nose, or "bulkier nose" on that particular style.
BUT, that is an easy fix, just shake the bullets more before you coat them. I do like my 500 and 600gr Round Flat bullets because I have them in Hollow Point molds as well. You do have more options with the RF bullets.

[bubbadoyle]

Not in particular no. If you are powdercoating, I will say that the Spire bullet is a little more forgiving. Because if the powdercoat is even a tad too thick, youll be jamming the bullet into the lands really easy. Because of the shorter nose, or "bulkier nose" on that particular style.
BUT, that is an easy fix, just shake the bullets more before you coat them. I do like my 500 and 600gr Round Flat bullets because I have them in Hollow Point molds as well. You do have more options with the RF bullets.

I’m looking at the 600 because it says it comes with 3 hollow point and one flat point option. The 500 looks like only one hollow point option unless I’m missing something in the description.


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[makeurownfun]

I’m looking at the 600 because it says it comes with 3 hollow point and one flat point option. The 500 looks like only one hollow point option unless I’m missing something in the description.


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No, all of the NOE HP molds come with 3 different depth HP pins and also a set of flat pins. The only difference between the 500 and 600 is the length of the bullet. Same profile bullet

[Milky Duck]

now something big heavy soft AND hollow pointed so it might open up a big is a whole different ball game.....
but you still have to poke it in the right place.....
the dynapoint hps shown elsewhere really look awesome....

[Castaway]

Before I went too far with your experiment, I recommend you get a Lee 500 grain checked RNFP and cast them at 20:1 and test drive that before investing in a custom mould. The nose a hould be round enough to climb the feed ramp and soft enough to expand at the velocity limit you’ve placed upon yourself. I don’t think a hollow point is practical. If the lead is soft enough to expand, it will also deform the lips of your hollow point bullet when chambering. 500 grains is a lot of mass and will penetrate just fine. You’ll also get some expansion. Keep in mind, the hole starts at a diameter a 30 cal would like to expand to

[bubbadoyle]

Before I went too far with your experiment, I recommend you get a Lee 500 grain checked RNFP and cast them at 20:1 and test drive that before investing in a custom mould. The nose a hould be round enough to climb the feed ramp and soft enough to expand at the velocity limit you’ve placed upon yourself. I don’t think a hollow point is practical. If the lead is soft enough to expand, it will also deform the lips of your hollow point bullet when chambering. 500 grains is a lot of mass and will penetrate just fine. You’ll also get some expansion. Keep in mind, the hole starts at a diameter a 30 cal would like to expand to

I appreciate the advice. My brother has that mold already. I’m also considering this mold for other future .45 caliber builds, so the socom is not my only reason for wanting it.


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[bubbadoyle]

No, all of the NOE HP molds come with 3 different depth HP pins and also a set of flat pins. The only difference between the 500 and 600 is the length of the bullet. Same profile bullet

Can you give me a rough idea of what the weights are of the 600 hollow point options?


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[makeurownfun]

Can you give me a rough idea of what the weights are of the 600 hollow point options?


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Sure thing. I will get some weighed for you tomorrow. But I believe 30 grains lighter for the deep HP. But I will double check for you. My flat point solid pins weigh in at 603 after PC

[bubbadoyle]

Sure thing. I will get some weighed for you tomorrow. But I believe 30 grains lighter for the deep HP. But I will double check for you. My flat point solid pins weigh in at 603 after PC

That would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


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[makeurownfun]

That would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


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Sorry it took so long. But here is a flat point, shallow HP, and the deep HP. The medium HP will of course be somewhere between those two. These few were cast with a softer lead, around 10BHN. The last picture is one with my WW alloy which is around 14BHN. (What this mold was designed for)

308895
308896
308897
308898
308899

[bubbadoyle]

Sorry it took so long. But here is a flat point, shallow HP, and the deep HP. The medium HP will of course be somewhere between those two. These few were cast with a softer lead, around 10BHN. The last picture is one with my WW alloy which is around 14BHN. (What this mold was designed for)

308895
308896
308897
308898
308899

Thank you.


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[Castaway]

At 8-10 BHN your velocity should be 1,00-1,200 f/s for optimal performance, a touch above your stated goal of subsonic velocities. At a BHN of 10-13, you’re looking at velocities up to 1,600 f/s. A 14 BHN bullet will give additional problems of not only a greater increased velocity, but bullet fragmentation will be increased as the BBN goes up, so does the malleability of the alloy. ( credits to Glen E. Fryxell)

[makeurownfun]

I know there are many different views and opinions on Hardness/BHN vs Velocity, not to mention the Hardness/BHN vs Pressure. But I've had good luck with my setup