Chrony necessary for 45-70 out to 100 yards?

[huntinlever]

I had a Competition Electronics Prochrono back in 2015 and liked its help in developing a previous load for the guide gun. I am wondering how many depend on just incremental charges and group tightness to do their load developments, for the limited scope of hunting within 100-150 yards? In a quandary about whether to stay with the light-diffuser style chrony on a tripod v. something like the Magnetospeed sporter. Or nothing at all but range time.

Thoughts?

[NSB]

I have, and use a chronograph for some loads. For something like my 45-70s (I’ve had quite a few) I just shoot for my best groups at 100y. I’ve never had a problem getting a load that shoots well and every load I’ve ever used works well for dropping white tails. I have enough loading manuals around to know pretty much what ball park velocity I’m getting. Once in a while I chrono one out of curiosity and it’s pretty close. It’s just not that critical for this cartridge at these close distances.

[huntinlever]

I have, and use a chronograph for some loads. For something like my 45-70s (I’ve had quite a few) I just shoot for my best groups at 100y. I’ve never had a problem getting a load that shoots well and every load I’ve ever used works well for dropping white tails. I have enough loading manuals around to know pretty much what ball park velocity I’m getting. Once in a while I chrono one out of curiosity and it’s pretty close. It’s just not that critical for this cartridge at these close distances.

Perfect. Thanks, really helpful.

[Winger Ed.]

I use one sometimes.
But I found my readings were always so close to the published data, I don't bother with it much any more.

If I ever strayed off into uncharted waters, I'd use it a lot.
Staying under max loads by at least 10%--- usually more, I don't feel I'm in danger of shooting my eye out.

[BLAHUT]

I use my coronagraph for all my load developments. With my 45/70, 45/60 I stay at about 1200 FPS, so coronagraph tells me when/how....

[huntinlever]

I use my coronagraph for all my load developments. With my 45/70, 45/60 I stay at about 1200 FPS, so coronagraph tells me when/how....

Like Ed and NSB, my plan is to hover up or down load book ranges for 1300-1400 or so FPS, and so long as groups are acceptably tight, I felt I might be good to go. I enjoy knowing more precisely, but at this point I need to keep cash for components as they come up.

Do you have a barrel chronograph? I've forgotten. I am intrigued by the Magnetospeeder sport, but I've seen some people complain of slippage between shots. Still, have to say, I was always waiting for the shot where I'd destroy the Competition Prochrono....

[country gent]

I use mine mainly with Black powder loads. Watching the extreme spread and standard deviation helps find the sweet spot in compression. A 1 grn charge of BP dosnt make a big difference in velocity but does change compression. But in the end accuracy determines the load

[stubshaft]

I'll stick to my diffuser plate Chrony and/or Oehler 33. The cost of replacing my Chrono's can be better spent toward primers and primers.

[Winger Ed.]

Oehler 33.

I thought I was the only one still using one of those.

[dverna]

If you shoot five groups that average 1.5” at 100 yards, will it matter if your velocity is 1300 or 1400 fps?

[W.R.Buchanan]

On guns like this I am looking at the trajectory of the boolit being usable over 200 yards. Typically if I'm on at 100 yards It will need +6MOA at 150 and 6 more at 200.

When sussing out my .45-70 load I started out at 25 gr and went up in 2 gr increments until the recoil got objectionable. that was 35 gr so I backed off to 33 gr which I could shoot 50 of in one morning and not get hurt.

Then refine zero at 100 yds. and then recheck at 150 and 200. 9" low at 150 required +6 MOA and 12" low at 200 required another +6 MOA on the Lyman Receiver Sight.

Randy

[huntinlever]

Thanks for the input guys. To be honest based on a range trip a bit thrown as to where to go from here - probably spoiled by my IMR 4198 load from years ago that was hot, but really tight. Suspect I'll have to start around 28 grains 5744 and build up from there.

[BLAHUT]

Thanks for the input guys. To be honest based on a range trip a bit thrown as to where to go from here - probably spoiled by my IMR 4198 load from years ago that was hot, but really tight. Suspect I'll have to start around 28 grains 5744 and build up from there.

I use a magno coronagraph. My load in my guide gun is a 515 gr Lee flat point bullet in pure lead, over 27 grs of 5744 on top of a mag primer, very accurate in my gun. Depends on what you plan on using this load for ? This load for my guide gun was my bear load when fishing in Alaska.

[huntinlever]

I use a magno coronagraph. My load in my guide gun is a 515 gr Lee flat point bullet in pure lead, over 27 grs of 5744 on top of a mag primer, very accurate in my gun. Depends on what you plan on using this load for ? This load for my guide gun was my bear load when fishing in Alaska.

Thanks Blahut. That Magneto seems pretty awesome.

For my 405 grain, just whitetail deer really. And I am pretty sure I'll get another 46-425Q from Tom (sold my last one years ago) for elk, if not deer as well. Not looking for screaming velocity so anything 1300-1450 would be great to me, but really looking for accuracy - which happened to be as I approached 1700 fps with the 425 grain previously.

In terms of this new bullet and 5744 I think I need a re-do as today's over 26-30.0 grain 5744 was not too great. I might have just been lucky or because I was willing to work the 425 to near max with the IMR 4198, I was really pleased with both the chrono data (shoot-through, Competition Electronics) and the tight groups at the time.

[Milky Duck]

many a good load has been ruined by a chronograph....if its accurate LEAVE IT ALONE....

[stubshaft]

many a good load has been ruined by a chronograph....if its accurate LEAVE IT ALONE....

Amen, Brother, like looking at ballistic charts will create a super killer or watching people shooting gel will kill an animal deader. It is almost like the adage about fishing lures where the only thing they really catch is fisherman. The ONLY thing that Matters is ACCURACY!!! If you can't hit it, you can't kill it!

[georgerkahn]

I thought I was the only one still using one of those.

My first chrony was an Oehler -- do not recall its number -- but one shot through two pieces of PAPER which had printed-circuit conductors on each, and "Nixie tubes" -- vacuum tubes with dots which would light up -- to use a chart to then determine speed! (Have times changed :) -- I now have both a PACT Infrared, an Oehler 35P, and a LabRadar.)

I am, whenever I can, a chronograph user. I strive for an unextreme spread ;) -- I desire most of my bullets to leave the muzzle (yes, a few feet distant as 'start') at as close to the same velocity as I might. I play close attention to published data in manuals, too. There's soooo much I do NOT know, albeit I've been putting cartridges together for 47 or so years -- too many variables -- I desire accuracy and SAFETY!
Using the chronographs may or may not really help (???) but they give me a warm & fuzzy feeling that my loads are good ones for both me and the firearm I'm using.
Since my right leg went from "bad" to "badder!" I picked up a LabRadar which surely seems to save steps, but frankly have not used it (yet!) enough times to give an evaluation of this product.
BUT -- again -- I consider the chrony as a most necessary part of my shooting sport! I have but a few rifles, many much older than me (>74), and I wish my "moderate loadings" to BE 'moderate' for the old actions. Germaine to post -- I have an OLLLLD .45-70 as well as a new one. Albeit neither is a Ruger -- I do, and chrony, all my .45-70 Government loads to be safe for the antique...
geo

[huntinlever]

Thanks for the perspective guys and they are good arguments and food for thought. Have to sit on this one as I see merits to both positions.

To those of you who use a magneto-style chrono, do you shoot for the chrony data first, pretty much ignoring the paper results (I've heard this style chrono can change barrel harmonics and so impacts the POI), then use what you find in the chrony data to start shooting groups?

[georgerkahn]

Thanks for the perspective guys and they are good arguments and food for thought. Have to sit on this one as I see merits to both positions.

To those of you who use a magneto-style chrono, do you shoot for the chrony data first, pretty much ignoring the paper results (I've heard this style chrono can change barrel harmonics and so impacts the POI), then use what you find in the chrony data to start shooting groups?

As I wrote, for me, the two major things I look for are velocities in a range not too out of whack which that is printed in Sierra, Hornady, Lee, wtc manuals for the load I'm duplicating; and, that the run I shoot are not too great in velocity spread. If the spread is too great -- subjective -- I reckon there's no way I'll get consistent, repeatable results on paper or Bambi ;). The #2 is, my not having pressure gauges, reckoning, too, that if my velocities are in same range as those in manuals, I (knock wood!) won't be blowing up my firearm, or hurting myself/others.
Perhaps germane, a few years back a ring one moved on barrel to reduce harmonics and "guarantee" significantly better performance was marketed and I had to have one! Frankly, it seemed to work for me -- set up for THAT day's range trip. But -- again for me -- maybe I was doing something wrong? -- NEXT range trip -- same ammo from same box using rifle cleaned, etc., exactly as before -- by golly, I'd have to start out anew.
Hence, MY thoughts include harmonics perhaps important for those endeavoring 10-ring shots at 1,000 yards. For me -- at my normal seventy-five yard target -- it does not seem to be a significant worry. (Then again, note this is both ME and MY firearms... for others it may very well have a factor. ???)
geo

[ascast]

FWIW - I only used on for long rang stuff, match shooting. Anything inside of 200 yards I cant see much benefit, certainly inside of 100.

[Larry Gibson]

many a good load has been ruined by a chronograph....if its accurate LEAVE IT ALONE....

Never found "a good load" that was accurate that didn't also have good ES/SDs across a chronograph. Conversely, I have seen many "a good load" that seemed accurate at 50 yards or even 100 yards that had poor ES/SDs and also poor accuracy at longer ranges.

I have 4 chronographs [a MagnetoSpeed and 3 Oehler's] and have chronographed thousands of loads since '74. The usefulness of the chronograph in load development is well documented. As to whether anyone "needs" a chronograph is simply up to the individual. In my own case I don't "need" a chronograph for load development, I did plenty of that before I got my 1st Oehler. No, I don't need one, I want one......

[414gates]

If I ever need to buy another chrony, it will be a labradar.

For big guns with big brakes, a magnetospeed won't work.

The diffuser type I have will remain as a backup.

[huntinlever]

I hear you Larry, and thanks all. It comes down to budget and what I'm willing to accept, as always, of course. I also can't get away from the notion that especially with this venerable cartridge, they have been hitting gongs at 600 yards with vernier sights....no pretense to being a good shot, just a hat in the ring that I sometimes think we (I mean "I," especially) tend to acquire all kinds of things hoping to circumvent just getting to know one's rifle with tons of range time.

Granted everything is now scarce as hell and expensive accordingly - can't believe how much lead I used to cast and rounds I used to burn - but I still need to watch my tendency to buy the next thing hoping for the magic bullet, pun intended.

I know my limits - I can't imagine ever taking longer than 100 yards on game with this guide gun. The scope is a fixed 2 x 7, and past 100 yards even with the scope my eyes as is start to become the limiting factor. My sole concern is to take game well at my hunting distances, so that's my starting point.

414 - If by brake, you mean muzzle brakes, this guide gun is ported but no brake. The magazine tube doesn't extend to the end and I think it might be possible to just mount the magneto "normally," bayonet under the barrel. If not, after talking with the company, they confirmed it's not a problem with any lever gun to mount the unit in any direction. So, again I think, it works with the gun.

I'd still like to ask for those who use this type - do you pretty much let go groupings and POI first, getting your velocity/SD etc. data, then shoot without the chrony for the chrony's effect on POI?

Thanks for all the help all. There's a lot to think on.

I did have good data (for me. Let's call it "good enough" working data) with the Competition Electronics diffuser chronograph. Indeed the data was backed up by groupings, which by 39.5 grains IMR 4198 and 425 WFNGC bullet were very tight. Just always waiting for when I blasted the thing apart and after Blahut mentioned his use of the bayonet/barrel-mounted chrony, and I think Larry Gibson it was who gave a somewhat higher nod to the same type, I was intrigued.

Wish I could justify and then afford a Labradar. I think with the shoulder artillery of this cartridge and its mortar-like character, not sure I need something so good (and costly) for taking down game within my limited range.

[dverna]

FWIW - I only used on for long rang stuff, match shooting. Anything inside of 200 yards I cant see much benefit, certainly inside of 100.

This post above is worth repeating.

I have been reloading since 1968 and have never "needed" one to develop an accurate load. I have plans to use the one I have this coming year to see how much better it makes the process.

But I have done things inefficiently. I shoot a lot of groups and if a load groups it is GTG. I suspect with a chronograph you may gain confidence in a load with fewer groups if the ES and SD are "good".

I cannot offer solid proof but my gut feel and common sense tells me at less than 200 yards worrying about SD and ES for a hunting load is mental masturbation.

[huntinlever]

This post above is worth repeating.

I have been reloading since 1968 and have never "needed" one to develop an accurate load. I have plans to use the one I have this coming year to see how much better it makes the process.

But I have done things inefficiently. I shoot a lot of groups and if a load groups it is GTG. I suspect with a chronograph you may gain confidence in a load with fewer groups if the ES and SD are "good".

I cannot offer solid proof but my gut feel and common sense tells me at less than 200 yards worrying about SD and ES for a hunting load is mental masturbation.

Thanks Don. My bent at this point is to just get 'er done on the 100 yard range without the chrony, and call it ready for the field.

One thing I did note this morning, cleaning the rifle - man, I've never had a dirtier bore, with so much obviously unburnt powder. Not sure I really care, but I will be going back to the 4198 and just taking a look - needed hot to do well with the last (425 grain) bullet, but interested to see how this lighter bullet does with lower-end 4198, though my gut tells me it won't do so well and the bulkier and/or faster powder might be the better call.

[Milky Duck]

I cannot offer solid proof but my gut feel and common sense tells me at less than 200 yards worrying about SD and ES for a hunting load is mental masturbation.

you have no idea how refreshing it is to see that written......
the longer range crowd seem to be "in fashion" these days and the amount of components used to get a rifle shooting right...is more than I will use in 3 years hunting and filling the freezer..then they go and on sell rifle and start on next one LOL...

[1hole]

Chronografts are fun to play with and the data, used properly, can help build confidence in our work but they sure aren't "necessary".

I can't help smiling at the idea of anyone loading for "long range" shooting with a .45-70.

[NSB]

Chronografts are fun to play with and the data, used properly, can help build confidence in our work but they sure aren't "necessary".

I can't help smiling at the idea of anyone loading for "long range" shooting with a .45-70.
FYI: there are people who do shoot 45-70s out to six hundred yards in competition and actually shoot groups at that distance that are 1moa. Yes, six inch groups at six hundred yards. I’m not one of them though. I’m one of the guys that has a chronograph but it’s not used for big game hunting loads at 200 yards or less. Once in a while I’ll measure a couple to see how it compares to “book” loads. It’s usually pretty close. I spend more time on just shooting the smallest group with a reasonable amount of time invested.

[1hole]

FYI there are people who do shoot 45-70s out to six hundred yards in competition and actually shoot groups at that distance that are 1moa.

I now consider myself informed about long range .45-70 shooters.

I still can't help but wonder how many of those 600 yard MOA shooters are moderately experienced reloaders who would come here for basic chrony advice.

Of course there are a lot of truly long range shooters who think 600 yards is just a mid-range distance. I'm not one of them. I consider 600 yards to be the middle of the next zip code and my best .45-70 accuracy would be "minute-of-barn"! :)

[selmerfan]

I didn't own a chronograph until about a decade ago. Which means I was handloading for two decades without a chronograph and relying on manuals alone - plus shooting targets at actual range to determine trajectories. My longest deer kill and longest varmint kill shots were made long before I owned a chronograph. I do like knowing the data. But for a .45-70, I'd pick the best group at 100 yards, sight in 3" high at 100 yards, then put it on paper at 200 yards to see where it lands and call it good enough.

[huntinlever]

I didn't own a chronograph until about a decade ago. Which means I was handloading for two decades without a chronograph and relying on manuals alone - plus shooting targets at actual range to determine trajectories. My longest deer kill and longest varmint kill shots were made long before I owned a chronograph. I do like knowing the data. But for a .45-70, I'd pick the best group at 100 yards, sight in 3" high at 100 yards, then put it on paper at 200 yards to see where it lands and call it good enough.

Thanks, Selmer. I did load up 16 in 0.3 increments (16 each powder) including taking it hotter (out to 37.5 grains IMR 4198 and 33.5 grains AA 5744), just to take a look. I do wonder if maybe I've missed a bit by going at 0.5 grain increments, though I know for a case like the 45-70 it's fairly common.

I did also order the Magnetospeed as much to see where errors might lie as anything else, but maybe that was an unnecessary purchase (see above - GAS). We'll see. I do have the sense of history that plenty game has been felled off of BP loads and .... experience. So I take in what you're saying - many thanks.

I used to run a gypsy swing group, years ago. Selmer Guitars?

[selmerfan]

Thanks, Selmer. I did load up 16 in 0.3 increments (16 each powder) including taking it hotter (out to 37.5 grains IMR 4198 and 33.5 grains AA 5744), just to take a look. I do wonder if maybe I've missed a bit by going at 0.5 grain increments, though I know for a case like the 45-70 it's fairly common.

I did also order the Magnetospeed as much to see where errors might lie as anything else, but maybe that was an unnecessary purchase (see above - GAS). We'll see. I do have the sense of history that plenty game has been felled off of BP loads and .... experience. So I take in what you're saying - many thanks.

I used to run a gypsy swing group, years ago. Selmer Guitars?

Selmer saxophones. :). My undergrad degree is music education with saxophone emphasis. Still teach privately and play as many gigs as I can. I taught in public schools for a short time and then went to seminary. Now in year 13 as a Lutheran pastor. I'd LOVE to have a Magnetospeed. I'm still working with an older Shooting Chrony with the skyscreens. I'll use it until it doesn't work or I put a bullet through it. :)

[M-Tecs]

I know several 600 and 1,000 yard NRA Highpower National Record holders that never owned or used a chronograph. They shoot waterline tests for load development and nothing more. I do find chronographs beneficial but far from necessary. On a personal note I was achieving repeatable 1/4" to 3/8" MOA groups in the mid 70's will one rifle and no chrono. Today I have better optics, bullets, brass, barrels and chrono's yet 1/4" to 3/8" are still the upper end of my groups. If I went to full benchrest techniques I could do better but that's not where my interest lie. What has changed is the ease to get to the level of accuracy that I want. The chrono helps with developing loads quicker and with less shots but it's hardly a necessity.

[huntinlever]

Selmer saxophones. :). My undergrad degree is music education with saxophone emphasis. Still teach privately and play as many gigs as I can. I taught in public schools for a short time and then went to seminary. Now in year 13 as a Lutheran pastor. I'd LOVE to have a Magnetospeed. I'm still working with an older Shooting Chrony with the skyscreens. I'll use it until it doesn't work or I put a bullet through it. :)

Well that's very cool. Selmer brass, of course. Sorry - pretty storied history with Django Reinhardt and his style.

Thanks for the additional perspective. I ended up cancelling the order - when and if I pick up that .330-.338, I'll rethink it. Until then I don't anticipate going past 150 yards (at the very most) with the guide gun and I like your advice - shoot it at all anticipated distances and know the load.

[huntinlever]

I know several 600 and 1,000 yard NRA Highpower National Record holders that never owned or used a chronograph. They shoot waterline tests for load development and nothing more. I do find chronographs beneficial but far from necessary. On a personal note I was achieving repeatable 1/4" to 3/8" MOA groups in the mid 70's will one rifle. Today I have better optics, bullets, brass, barrels and chrono's yet 1/4" to 3/8" are still the upper end of my groups. If I went to full benchrest techniques I could do better but that's not where my interest lie. What has changed is the ease to get to the level of accuracy that I want. The chrono helps with developing loads quicker and with less shots but it's hardly a necessity.

Thanks, too, for your info. Some travel but I do have ranges available, as I've found out, to 300 yards, in 100 yard increments. Plenty to work on.