carbon neutral

[Battis]

Without getting into the 1.7 trillion bill that'll soon be passed - I gotta watch my BP - one thing came out of it that is good: firewood has been deemed carbon neutral. Yes, burning wood produces C02, but trees grow and suck in the C02, then they're cut down and burned and the cycle continues.
Yay...

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

yeaaaaaaaa ...WHAT?

Meanwhile, yesterday over 5000 passenger Jet flights were canceled, but that is less than 10% of the flights that day.

[Handloader109]

Kind of a change eh? Feds and the tree huggers have been against wood burning for decades. Heck with that reasoning, coal is carbon neutral comes from trees right?

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[Battis]

I've been heating with wood since 1984, and it used to bother me when they talked about banning wood burning, or taxing it, fining wood burners, etc. I just learned to ignore it. So, this is good.

[rbuck351]

I moved to MT because most folks here don't care much what you do on you own property. I have three wood stoves, one in the shop, one in the basement and a wood range in the kitchen. I start the shop stove with a cup of used motor oil. You should see that smoke for a bit. I have 13 acres, 10 wooded and I'm sure my trees are loving the CO2 I'm making for them.

[MUSTANG]

Kind of a change eh? Feds and the tree huggers have been against wood burning for decades. Heck with that reasoning, coal is carbon neutral comes from trees right?

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It's more aggressive than cited. Many developed towns and cities are in a bowl surrounded by higher ground. This geography is great for capturing particulates suspended in the air. This is why Los Angeles and other California towns had tremendous pollution problems in the 1960's into the 1970's. In wades scientists and Urban planners that started addressing the issue; vehicle exhausts. With scientific/engineering solutions; the solution in the California and many other cities dropped to limited to practically non-existent by the 1980's. These "NEW INDUSTRIES" refused to go away and via the Federal and State (California) governments implemented ever increasing and ever expanding control measures. There were still "Visible" particulates in locations east of the California Sierras; which were traced visually to the Fireplaces & Woodstoves being used to heat and cook with. Cities, then Municipalities, then small towns started banning the installation of new wood burners, and in some locations outright banning. Enter the EPA who started regulating and heavily controlling the manufacturers of Wood Stoves for Cooking and Heating; requiring they be tested for particulates going up the flue. The numbers of wood stove users today compared to 30 years ago is vastly reduced.


P.S. These conditions were know for hundreds of years. The writings of the Spanish Sea Captains and the Priests who first saw the Los Angeles area (from a Spanish perspective) cite the vast numbers of cook fires and suspended smoke from the Natives residing there).

Technology CAN provide improvements. I have lived in and out of South Korea numerous times since the 1970's. In the 1970's the Seoul sky's were Black; not hazy, not dark, but BLACK from the principal transportation means - Old heavily used diesel buses that belched black smoke constantly. By the 1990's the skys had improved to Hazy. Had an Army Surgeon during that period who told me that just simply living and breathing the air in Seoul (in the 1990's) was equivalent to smoking 2 packs of cigarettes a day. Seouls skys are clear today - partly because of requirements on vehcile emissions; but also because the spread the population out since they sponsored the Olympics. Seoul expanded across the Han river to the North (previous decades this was a non starter because of the Military wanting clear fields of fire if the North Koreans/China invaded), and the city has expanded to the east/west/south also.

We heat the Moapa House with a wood stove when required during a few weeks out of the Year. We use about 6 cords of wood to heat the Kalispell House yearly - the wood stove used is a Vogelzang TR-007 woof stove. Selected because it was rated as one of the highest EPA burn efficiencies at the time. As we look to the East over the Kalispell valley floor; we will see the smoke plumes from various Wood Stoves/Fireplaces; but they are disappearing as houses are being heated with Propane (problematic for most if power goes out because of the controllers/blowers required or Electric (highly problematic because if the power goes out - no heat at all). Periodically see "Discussions" of banning wood stoves in the area; but when there are winter power outages - it sort of reminds the population of how Risky it is to depend entirely on Government and Mega Corporations benevolent services.

A wood collection permit for 4 cords from the US Forest Service in Northwest Montana is about $25.00. Of course, cost of chain saw. fuel, transportation, and free time for collecting wood adds to the cost - but compare to an annual bill of over $2,000.00 for propane if the house were heated exclusively with Propane. In our Southern Nevada House; many would say that there is not firewood - but we heat the house when needed from Mesquite Trees that we cut down or trim on the property.

Just some thoughts on Firewood and Heating with wood. Of course as a Nuclear Physicist I know was fond of saying - "THE SOLUTION TO POLLUTION IS DILUTION".

[JSnover]

I don't think any of the fools making these decisions understands carbon or physics. We don't create or destroy carbon, we alternately consume it and release it, as every carbon-based life form and every industrial process has always done.

[Battis]

Apparently, that provision in Da Bill was pushed by RINO Collins from Maine, which makes sense (it's Maine).

[MaryB]

I go thru 2,000-3,000 pounds of wood pellets each year. Made from scrap hard wood from cabinet and flooring plants that would otherwise end up in a landfill. Plus the furnace cycles a dozen times a day in colder weather(below zero) and in the morning taking the chill out of the house.

[BrassMagnet]

Without getting into the 1.7 trillion bill that'll soon be passed - I gotta watch my BP - one thing came out of it that is good: firewood has been deemed carbon neutral. Yes, burning wood produces C02, but trees grow and suck in the C02, then they're cut down and burned and the cycle continues.
Yay...

Nay!!!
San Francisco banned burning wood to keep warm.
Do as I say, not as I do!
Rules for thee, but not for me!

[Hannibal]

The electric utilities in several states are requesting that customers conserve electricity during this 'bomb cyclone' weather event. But the idiots in Washington are going to make natural gas furnaces and vehicles with internal combustion engines too expensive to own with taxes and regulation fees.

What could go wrong?

[farmbif]

I tell you what. the past couple days I sure wish I had a switch I could flip and get some heat. I cant seem to put enough wood in the stove to get the house warmed up good since this storm blew in. besides two space heaters the wood stove is the only heat ive got. i'm a southerner and 5 degrees yesterday morning and then 2 degrees this morning is about the coldest ive ever felt.
I very rarely have cut any living trees for firewood. there are enough dead trees on my property to get though the winters and earlier this year I met a guy who owns a log truck and he brought me a truckload of rejects from a local sawmill for the cost of filling his fuel tank so ive probably got 7 or 8 cord of oaks, hickory and beech that will probably last me a couple years at least.
about this carbon neutral thing. I'm not giving up my gas powered pickup truck or my gas and diesel tractors. electrical vehicles and batteries are not quite there yet. and from what ive learned about it even if I had a solar setup the batteries are pretty much useless when temperatures get as low as they are right now. I had to go check on my neighbor this morning after the sun came up because the power went out for a little while and she only has electric heat it was probably 5 or 6 degrees out, my chevy started right up and got me there and back, no problem.

[Walks]

Los Angeles County put a ban on using your wood fireplace since this past tuesday. Will last until it rans this coming tuesday. Glad I don't live in the actual City of LA. There they actually fine people for using a wood fireplace.

[Hannibal]

I'm wondering how long it will be before they want to regulate our diets to end flatulence?
Maybe Soylent Green is low fiber?

[Skipper]

Just for info...
There is not an ounce more carbon on this planet than there was a billion years ago.

[JSnover]

I'm wondering how long it will be before they want to regulate our diets to end flatulence?
Maybe Soylent Green is low fiber?
I dunno, I think Soylent Green is vegetarians.

[alfadan]

Oh how nice, they are graciously allowing us to burn the King's wood.

[10x]

Heating with coal is like heating with sunshine, except the sun was shining some 50 million or more years ago.

[William Yanda]

NY legislators have swallowed the greenie line and legislated that all new homes after 20xx be heated by either solar or heat pumps. At 20xx + 5. no fossil fuel appliances can be sold.
We were without power for over 24 hours Christmas Eve. Without electricity, our natural gas furnace did not operate. The power went out at 9:15 PM and by 4 AM the temperature was 43 degrees. By utilizing a vent free gas fireplace we managed to keep the house from freezing, but we were very happy when the power came back on about a half hour before Christmas Day.
Unfortunately, NY legislators were not informed that wood stoves are carbon neutral and they have been banned as well.
If you take the long vue, fossil fuels are carbon neutral as well as the plants from which they were formed pulled carbon from the atmosphere, and burning them simply returns it.

[imashooter2]

yeaaaaaaaa ...WHAT?

Meanwhile, yesterday over 5000 passenger Jet flights were canceled, but that is less than 10% of the flights that day.

I’ve recently read that as much kerosene is burned in oil lamps in areas that don’t have electricity as jet fuel in all the worlds airliners.

[MaryB]

I have a half dozen Alladin kerosene lanterns. The type with a mantle that burn cleaner. During a winter power outage it is a source of light and heat.

[10x]

I have a half dozen Alladin kerosene lanterns. The type with a mantle that burn cleaner. During a winter power outage it is a source of light and heat.

In my early youth all we had was kerosene lamps - no electricity, not enough money for flashlights-
I hate the smell of kerosene - it smells like poverty and privation.

[hoodat]

I’ve recently read that as much kerosene is burned in oil lamps in areas that don’t have electricity as jet fuel in all the worlds airliners.

That's a kind of tough one for me to swallow but--- sometimes statistics and numbers will slap ya long side the head. jd

[Hannibal]

In my early youth all we had was kerosene lamps - no electricity, not enough money for flashlights-
I hate the smell of kerosene - it smells like poverty and privation.

Agreed. I work around large diesel engines every day. Spent 4 years in the Navy around aircraft too. I despise the smell of diesel/kerosene.

[WRideout]

Kind of a change eh? Feds and the tree huggers have been against wood burning for decades. Heck with that reasoning, coal is carbon neutral comes from trees right?

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According to my college botany professor, coal is from the ancient ferns that grew tall and looked like trees.
Wayne

[imashooter2]

That's a kind of tough one for me to swallow but--- sometimes statistics and numbers will slap ya long side the head. jd

I admit that it seems odd sitting here in the US. We are creatures of our own experience and our experience doesn’t include that there is an awful lot of the world with no electricity and more with unreliable electricity.

[Hannibal]

According to my college botany professor, coal is from the ancient ferns that grew tall and looked like trees.
Wayne

At one time it was accepted as fact that oil came from the decomposition of ancient living things also. That has since turned out to be false. Along with some other ideas such as a flat earth and the earth being the center of this planetary system.
I wonder what other long-held ideas will turn out to be false.

[Alex_4x4]

Carbon neutrality is akin to virgin birth or communism - you can only believe in them.

I am amazed at how powerfully in the civilized west the media can brainwash the population.

[Finster101]

"I am amazed at how powerfully in the civilized west the media can brainwash the population."

Alex, you should not be. After years of practice the media is exceedingly good at it.

[Battis]

I wouldn't say that I'm brainwashed because I understand the concept of firewood being carbon neutral. Burning wood gives off CO2. Growing trees suck in that same CO2. Nothing to do with the "civilized west" media. Is it exactly carbon neutral, molecule for molecule? Come on...
My point in the post was that firewood being labeled carbon neutral in that 1.7 trillion dollar bill might take some of the "heat" off the practice of burning wood for heat, which I do.

[dverna]

I will be burning wood until I cannot carry it in anymore. It is my primary source of heat because it is cheaper than anything else. There are a lot of folks in the same boat where I live.

Laws that make sense for urban areas do not make sense for rural areas.

[Battis]

I'm once again at that point that I'm thinking about switching to pellets. Maybe 10, 15 years ago, the firewood sellers around here raised the prices to the point that many wood burners made that switch to pellets, and the wood sellers were stuck with a large inventory that they couldn't get rid of. They got smart and dropped their prices. But, now the prices are getting crazy again. I like wood and don't really want to switch, but green is now around $300 a cord and "seasoned" is alot higher.

[MaryB]

I'm once again at that point that I'm thinking about switching to pellets. Maybe 10, 15 years ago, the firewood sellers around here raised the prices to the point that many wood burners made that switch to pellets, and the wood sellers were stuck with a large inventory that they couldn't get rid of. They got smart and dropped their prices. But, now the prices are getting crazy again. I like wood and don't really want to switch, but green is now around $300 a cord and "seasoned" is alot higher.

AT $300 cord dried hardwood you have $23.81 cost per million BTU's
$245/ton wood pellets $19.15 and right now I am paying $220/ton so $17.20 per million BTU's (pellets vary in cost across the country so...)

Right now I pay $1.82/Mil BTU's more for pellets vs natural gas. BUT the heat I get is more comfortable form pellets with no cold/hot swings. Downside is I can't use the pellet stove when it is above 30f outside, it drives me out of the living room!

calculator https://www.pelletheat.org/compare-fuel-costs

[popper]

I guess Bill Gates idea of carbon neutral is to eliminate persons. We are carbon based animals! I was in Seoul for the Olympics, air was fine.

[Battis]

The only problem I have with pellet stoves...well, actually two problems, is, first of all, if the power goes out, I'd need a generator to run it. Second, is the quality of the pellets. I remember back when Walmart was selling them - they were junk. Has the uniformity of pellet quality been ironed out?
I know you can buy back-up batteries for the stoves, but, from what I understand, the batteries last about four hours, enough to clear the stove of what's in it when the power goes out.
I hear that the pellet stoves give a better, longer and more uniformed heat. Then again, I've been told that the chimney that I use for the woodstove is too tall for a pellet stove - it won't draft properly.
Decisions...

[MUSTANG]

There are "Non-Electric" pellet stove options. No power required. One such is the US Stove Wiseway 2,000 sq. ft. 40,000 BTU Non-Electric, Gravity Feed pellet stove. Home Depot carries them for a touch over $2,300.00 currently.

308601


I looked at these for the Montana House (Before the Creator sold the patents and manufacturing = they were about $1,200.00 then), but opted for the more traditional Wood Stove - Vogelzang TR-007.

[Battis]

"Non-Electric" pellet stove options...
I will check them out.
I don't mind the work involved with wood - stacking, moving, etc. And the cost to switch to a good conventional pellet stove - I hear Harmon is the best - is substantial. The cost of wood is going up but it'd take a long time of expensive wood costs to justify the switch to pellet. Plus, let's face it, heating with wood is good exercise, but it does take up alot of property, which I don't have. Pellets you can buy as you need them.

[10x]

Carbon is neither created or destroyed.
We use carbon daily, in our food, in our drink, it makes up part of our body,
We breath in oxygen and breath out carbon dioxide. We need carbon to live.

There is not enough carbon from plants and animals we utilize so we supplement with fossil carbon to supply our energy needs.
There is no such thing as "carbon neutral". All of the carbon we utilize today (except diamonds) has been part of an green ecosystem either in the present, or in the distant past.
Much of the organic carbon from the past is tied up in limestone rock, dolomite, and marble.

Climate change is a red herring, the real problem is that our lifestyle depends on energy from inexpensive fossil carbon and inexpensive fossil carbon fuels are finite.

[Battis]

All true. But, if those in control want to label a wood burner "carbon neutral," that is good. There's not a single politician that would delve into the facts as presented above. If Collins from Maine calls wood burners "carbon neutral", then carbon neutral they are, and thus protected. That's all I ever meant.
Do I feel guilty burning wood? No, I feel warm and fuzzy.
Am I concerned about the climate changing? No. It has, and always will, change. Even in a single year, it changes at lease four times, with many sub-changes within those changes.
If it said in that 1.7 BILLION dollar bill that AR-15s are not really that dangerous, that'd be good.

[MaryB]

The only problem I have with pellet stoves...well, actually two problems, is, first of all, if the power goes out, I'd need a generator to run it. Second, is the quality of the pellets. I remember back when Walmart was selling them - they were junk. Has the uniformity of pellet quality been ironed out?
I know you can buy back-up batteries for the stoves, but, from what I understand, the batteries last about four hours, enough to clear the stove of what's in it when the power goes out.
I hear that the pellet stoves give a better, longer and more uniformed heat. Then again, I've been told that the chimney that I use for the woodstove is too tall for a pellet stove - it won't draft properly.
Decisions...

A typical pellet stove needs 1 amp when running, that translates to 10 amps at 12 volts running off an inverter(roughly...). 2 100 amp hour deep cycle AGM batteries kept on a float charger will run it for 10 hours(you have 200 amp hours of battery in parallel. 50% is all you can use off a battery before drastically shortening its life. So 100 amp hours available. 10 amps x 10 hours.) My pellet stove is 12 volt but no longer made... cost me $200 more than the same 120 volt stove. Differences being the motors used and control board is setup for DC instead of AC motors. I have a huge solar battery so I can run days off mine. Even cloudy days produce enough power to recharge the battery and power the pellet stove.

[MaryB]

Oh and auto ignition on a pellet stove really isn't needed. I put about a cup of pellets in the firebox, squirt some 90% rubbing alcohol over them(to much and you lose arm hair...) let it sit a minute then light it. Close door, turn stove on to start up blowers. No expensive fire starter gimmicks needed. Ignitor in my stove quit a week after warranty expired. It isn't an expensive item but it also doesn't run off DC so I never bothered replacing it. Only runs when I have 120 volts plugged into the 12 volt power supply inside the stove which is rare. I have way to many power outages so just leave it on the battery bank.

[Battis]

What about the different brands of stoves? Like I said, I heard that Harmon is the best. What about other brands?

[MaryB]

My stove is from American Energy Systems and has been reliable. Mid range in price. Harmon is near the top price wise then there are the import stoves at the bottom that might burn your house down... I don't care which brand you buy, some tinkering is needed to get them running right!

[alfadan]

I like my Englander NC30. Good capacity and no fancy catalists or anything.

[popper]

You could invest with Al Gores carbon neutral fund - similar to the bitcoin exchange idea. But Al will get rich.

[10x]

You could invest with Al Gores carbon neutral fund - similar to the bitcoin exchange idea. But ONLY Al will get rich.

Corrected that for you

There is a carbon credits scheme where the brokers are getting rich.

[JSnover]

At one time it was accepted as fact that oil came from the decomposition of ancient living things also. That has since turned out to be false. Along with some other ideas such as a flat earth and the earth being the center of this planetary system.
I wonder what other long-held ideas will turn out to be false.

As I understand it there are two processes by which crude is produced. One is biomass decomposition and the other takes place deeper within the earth, which explains why a lot of dry oil reserves have been able to refill themselves over time. I clipped an article from The Wall Street Journal about it years ago but can't find it now.
Both processes have been duplicated in laboratories.

[Shurshot2]

Look into the sabatier process to digest the co2.