Loading the 50-140 Sharps

[black vic]

I have a C. Sharps 1875 chambered for the 50-140 Sharps, heavy 34" barrel with 1/22" twist. I have a custom mold for a bore riding 795 grain cast bullet w/1-20 mix. My standard load is 120 grains of 1FG, 1 wax wad, 1 card wad. I want to put together a milder load using SR4759 smokeless powder. I found 1 load using 45 grains of SR4759 but it was with a 438 grain bullet and kapok filler. obviously my bullet is much larger so I wondering how much SR4759 powder & or filler to use with my bullet. I know there was a load using a 700 grain bullet, but I can't find any info on that using SR4759 powder. Any information would be much appreciated.

[varsity07840]

Find a good undertaker.

[black vic]

That's not very helpful. What would an undertaker know about reloading a Sharps rifle?

[earlmck]

I can tell you that QuickLoad thinks that 45 grains of IMR 4227 (which I use as a stand-in for 4759 which my QL doesn't have listed) would give about 20k psi and almost 1400 fps (I estimated your 795 grain bullet would be 1.5" long). QL shows a max pressure of 28k psi for the cartridge, so this would be a moderate load according to QuickLoad. I don't have any experience with the 50/140 cartridge so can only report what my elderly software tells us.

[Thundermaker]

When you're shooting a 795gr bullet, I don't think any load is going to feel mild on your end.

[Mikedominick]

Black Vic, I think they're trying to keep you from blowing it up with a reduced load and filler, thus the undertaker comment. I had a 50-140 Sharps many years ago and got away with it, but load all black in the 3 Sharps I have now.

[Thundermaker]

Back Vic, I think they're trying to keep you from blowing it up with a reduced load and filler, thus the undertaker comment. I had a 50-140 Sharps many years ago and got away with it, but load all black in the 3 Sharps I have now.

Yeah, sometimes small charges of smokeless in great big BPC cases don't act right. I encountered this when working up a 45lc load for a uberti revolver with HS6. It was the max load listed in the SAA section. It claimed 850fps on a 255gr bullet. My chronograph results were mostly similar. Only problem was that a couple rounds gave about 1,100 fps and kicked like a mule. I figured that the powder in those might have been detonating, instead of burning. Whatever it was, something was spiking the pressure. I switched to CFE pistol. Didn't have that problem anymore.

[Rockindaddy]

Had an original 50-140 14 lb original !874 Sharps. I shot the 700 gr cast boolit and 140 grs of Dupont 2F The gun shot great but the recoil was fierce! From the bench I would place a 25# lead shot canvas bag filled with play sand against my shoulder. It was a great long range gun. I wanted a hunting rifle. So I traded it off to a collector who fell in love with it. My smokeless loads in that big cast needed a lot of kapok to take up the space. I have a 50-70 that I always shoot smokeless. Have shot a buck with it. A 45-90 Sharps is a much better choice as the recoil is not as fierce shooting 2F and cast boolits. 308462308463

[black vic]

Yes I'm a little worried about that to, too little smokeless powder in a big case. I have tried reduced loads of 1F - 90 grains, wad on top and 20 grains corn meal. It did reduce the recoil a lot. I was hoping to find something in a smokeless load and since I came across a bunch of SR4759 which is supposed to work well in reduced loads in big cases I thought I'd try it.

[black vic]

You're right! I used this rifle in the long range 1000 yard matches at Camp Borden and the Nationals at Ottawa. Shooting this rifle prone was rather demanding to say the least! I had to get a sissy pad that went up and over my collar bone. The ranges were 800, 900 and 1000 yards and by the time we were back to the 1000 yard range I had run out of Tylenol and my trigger pull felt like it was around 50 pounds. But that was 25 years ago when I was younger and more stupid then I am now. LOL I don't shoot the rifle that much anymore as I have since acquired a few 45 cals which are much more pleasant to shoot. The Sharps being my first BPCR has a sentimental attachment and I still like to shoot it once in while at my club. It may be that I'll have to stick to BP with more corn meal. We'll see! Thanks for the input fellows, much appreciated!

[steveu]

Increase your wad stack with either cork or felt wads to take up the space between the bullet and BP charge.

[earlmck]

A fellow member here, marlinman93, has posted about loading for his 50/140. He is using amaranth seed as a filler (which I had not heard of but it sounds promising). He got his off eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/255451520519?var=555416328708

I believe he is only using black powder loads with the filler used to reduce the vast quantity of black needed to get a good fill in that humongous case. I ordered some of the amaranth seed to try for myself, and I plan on using it with smokeless powder in 45/70, 38/55, and 38/40 as my first potential uses.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Had an original 50-140 14 lb original !874 Sharps. I shot the 700 gr cast boolit and 140 grs of Dupont 2F The gun shot great but the recoil was fierce! From the bench I would place a 25# lead shot canvas bag filled with play sand against my shoulder. It was a great long range gun. I wanted a hunting rifle. So I traded it off to a collector who fell in love with it. My smokeless loads in that big cast needed a lot of kapok to take up the space. I have a 50-70 that I always shoot smokeless. Have shot a buck with it. A 45-90 Sharps is a much better choice as the recoil is not as fierce shooting 2F and cast boolits. 308462308463

Couldn’t be an original, as Sharps never made a 50-3-1/4. Cartridge came out in 1885-86. The original big fifty was the 2.5 inch case with a 473 gr pp load.

KW

[Winger Ed.]

I know the price of those brass cases are higher than giraffe lips and nobody wants to waste them.

But would it be practical to cut down the case to decrease the volume for lighter loads along the same idea as
.22 shorts working in a .22 LR, or .38Spec in a .357Mag chamber?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I know the price of those brass cases are higher than giraffe lips and nobody wants to waste them.

But would it be practical to cut down the case to decrease the volume for lighter loads along the same idea as
.22 shorts working in a .22 LR, or .38Spec in a .357Mag chamber?
Excellent way to ruin the chamber, plenty of evidence to back that up too.

Many ruined 22 lr chambers ruined by shooting shorts in them.

I have seen multiple 45-110 chambers in original Sharps rifles ruined by shooting 45-70s in them.

This is one of them urban legends that needs to go away.

KW

[indian joe]

Yes I'm a little worried about that to, too little smokeless powder in a big case. I have tried reduced loads of 1F - 90 grains, wad on top and 20 grains corn meal. It did reduce the recoil a lot. I was hoping to find something in a smokeless load and since I came across a bunch of SR4759 which is supposed to work well in reduced loads in big cases I thought I'd try it.

get rid of that 800grain boolit !! should be able to come back to 450 - 500 surely?
launching a hunk of lead that size is always gonna cause hefty recoil .

[freakonaleash]

I'd sell any 45-110 and get something that is fun to shoot.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

My 3 45-110s are all fun to shoot, my business rifle has taken 4 buffalo, my First Shiloh has won 2 Creedmoor Scope National championships at Raton NM and 2 winter Nationals in Phoenix. The 3rd is my 25# rifle that actually weighs in a tad over 21# last big win was in 2018 at Raton, midrange National championships. Won the scope class, actually beat all comers at 600 yards the first day shooting PP to boot.

KW

[black vic]

I started off with a 525 grain Lyman bullet but they were all over the map. It was like shooting round balls. At 100 yards I'd be lucky to keep 5 out of 10 shots on paper let alone group! The twist on this rifle is 1/22 which is fast for a 50 cal as most are 1/36 like an express rifle in order to shoot the smaller bullets. I used various programs to figure out the design of the bullet that would work with this twist and they all came out to a length of 1.75". I finally decided on 1.625" and with 1/20 alloy, this bullet works out to approximately 795 grains. If I change the alloy to something lighter I might get them down to about 750 to 760 which is still heavy. I was hoping that with the SR4759 smokeless I might be able to reduce the load to get around 12 to 13 hundred FPS with the use of filler of course. If not I'll just stick to 1F with lots of filler & wads. I was also thinking of getting a mold around 650 grains to see if that would stabilize. Sort of Postell style with most of the bullet in the case.??? Even my 45-120 with 600 grain bullets is a ***** compared to the 50. If that don't work I'll just have to quit being such a sissy!

[indian joe]

I started off with a 525 grain Lyman bullet but they were all over the map. It was like shooting round balls. At 100 yards I'd be lucky to keep 5 out of 10 shots on paper let alone group! The twist on this rifle is 1/22 which is fast for a 50 cal as most are 1/36 like an express rifle in order to shoot the smaller bullets. I used various programs to figure out the design of the bullet that would work with this twist and they all came out to a length of 1.75". I finally decided on 1.625" and with 1/20 alloy, this bullet works out to approximately 795 grains. If I change the alloy to something lighter I might get them down to about 750 to 760 which is still heavy. I was hoping that with the SR4759 smokeless I might be able to reduce the load to get around 12 to 13 hundred FPS with the use of filler of course. If not I'll just stick to 1F with lots of filler & wads. I was also thinking of getting a mold around 650 grains to see if that would stabilize. Sort of Postell style with most of the bullet in the case.??? Even my 45-120 with 600 grain bullets is a ***** compared to the 50. If that don't work I'll just have to quit being such a sissy!

ahh ok - so cant lighten the boolit - can you add weight to the gun ?

If you are making powder ? switch to cannon grade 8 -12 mesh screened powder - that would drop velocity heaps and still fill your case - velocity proly under 1000fps and your twist should still stabilise

I proly sell that cannon to someone I dont like and downsize :mrgreen:

[M-Tecs]

I started off with a 525 grain Lyman bullet but they were all over the map. It was like shooting round balls. At 100 yards I'd be lucky to keep 5 out of 10 shots on paper let alone group! The twist on this rifle is 1/22 which is fast for a 50 cal as most are 1/36 like an express rifle in order to shoot the smaller bullets. I used various programs to figure out the design of the bullet that would work with this twist and they all came out to a length of 1.75". I finally decided on 1.625" and with 1/20 alloy, this bullet works out to approximately 795 grains. If I change the alloy to something lighter I might get them down to about 750 to 760 which is still heavy. I was hoping that with the SR4759 smokeless I might be able to reduce the load to get around 12 to 13 hundred FPS with the use of filler of course. If not I'll just stick to 1F with lots of filler & wads. I was also thinking of getting a mold around 650 grains to see if that would stabilize. Sort of Postell style with most of the bullet in the case.??? Even my 45-120 with 600 grain bullets is a ***** compared to the 50. If that don't work I'll just have to quit being such a sissy!

The only 50 Cal BPCR experience I have is with 50/70 with a 26 inch twist barrel. That shot the 450 grain Lyman 515141 superbly.

I have much more experience with 45/70 - 45/100. I have had some success with lighter bullets in 16 and 18 twist 45 cal. barrels.

Cast bullet do have an RPM threshold but I would think a 525 grain in a 1/22 twist 50 cal. should be doable based on the 450 in a 26 twist and 45 cal. light bullets in 16 & 18 twist???

Could it be a bullet fit issue or a fouling control issue if you were shooting black?

[freakonaleash]

"I proly sell that cannon to someone I dont like and downsize"

Seems like a good solution to me!:holysheep

[Castaway]

Three methods were used to reduce the 70 grain charge to 55 grains for the 45-70. One was a tubular insert in the brass, the second was wads and the third and last way was to just seat the bullet deeper in the case. Interesting enough, a proportionate reduction would take your 140 grains down to 110.

[Thundermaker]

The O.P. is trying to work up a smokeless load with a specific powder.

[indian joe]

My 3 45-110s are all fun to shoot, my business rifle has taken 4 buffalo, my First Shiloh has won 2 Creedmoor Scope National championships at Raton NM and 2 winter Nationals in Phoenix. The 3rd is my 25# rifle that actually weighs in a tad over 21# last big win was in 2018 at Raton, midrange National championships. Won the scope class, actually beat all comers at 600 yards the first day shooting PP to boot.

KW

its all about "equal and opposite reaction" -- its gonna take a heckuva load in a 20 pound gun to make it uncomfortable - the trouble for me would be holding the thing up (offhand) - dont think I could do that without some serious gym time

[Castaway]

Thundermaker, I saw that but he also acknowledged maybe using black with wads to reduce the recoil

[swamp]

I use AA 8700 in my roller. The Lyman cast boolit manual lists loads for the 50-140-3.25.
swamp

[Rockindaddy]

Hi KW:
This 1874 Sharps was built by me! A couple of Philadelphia cops were called out to a Section 8 housing area on 4th of July and found an intoxicated decedent of the people brought here to work the colonial farms. He was shooting his great grandfathers 1863 Sharps 50-70 with original UMC black powder ammo into the air. The cops took the gun and ammo and smashed it over the curb. They took it back to the police station and were ready to throw it into the dumpster when my friends cousin a Philly cop grabbed it and took it home. I traded for the barreled action with a broken tang. The barrel looked like the Iranian camel brigade camped out in it. I fixed the tang and put a 50 cal barrel on it. Only had a 50-70 chamber reamer. Saved some nice walnut from my sawmill and made up a new buttstock with steel shotgun butt. Made a nice shooter! I am an old die maker so I rerolled the Sharps Bridgeport address and marked it Old Reliable. I use 1/20 tin soft lead to shoot Bambi. Made it look like a St Louis Meacham conversion plains rifle.

[MichaelR]

I have a .50-100-450 WCF rifle with a 1/26 twist. 450 grain GG bullets scatter like buckshot from it but jacketed bullets shoot very well. This summer I had a paper patch mold made for it. It turned out heavier than I liked at 500 grains, but it shoots very well now with the patched bullets. If you are going to shoot smokeless powder, remember to get a groove diameter mold. But I highly recommend black powder only. 1fg powder and a 475 grain bullet should tame the recoil a little.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

its all about "equal and opposite reaction" -- its gonna take a heckuva load in a 20 pound gun to make it uncomfortable - the trouble for me would be holding the thing up (offhand) - dont think I could do that without some serious gym time
The rifle was never intended for offhand, for prone or the bench, from 500 yards to 1 mile.

And has a few gold medals a bronze or two also.

KW

[Dave T]

Hi KW:
This 1874 Sharps was built by me! A couple of Philadelphia cops were called out to a Section 8 housing area on 4th of July and found an intoxicated decedent of the people brought here to work the colonial farms. He was shooting his great grandfathers 1863 Sharps 50-70 with original UMC black powder ammo into the air. The cops took the gun and ammo and smashed it over the curb. They took it back to the police station and were ready to throw it into the dumpster when my friends cousin a Philly cop grabbed it and took it home. I traded for the barreled action with a broken tang. The barrel looked like the Iranian camel brigade camped out in it. I fixed the tang and put a 50 cal barrel on it. Only had a 50-70 chamber reamer. Saved some nice walnut from my sawmill and made up a new buttstock with steel shotgun butt. Made a nice shooter! I am an old die maker so I rerolled the Sharps Bridgeport address and marked it Old Reliable. I use 1/20 tin soft lead to shoot Bambi. Made it look like a St Louis Meacham conversion plains rifle.

I'd sure like to see a picture of that finished project. (smile)

Dave

[indian joe]

The rifle was never intended for offhand, for prone or the bench, from 500 yards to 1 mile.

And has a few gold medals a bronze or two also.

KW

Yeah I realise that ......me point was a gun that weight might be a tad inconvenient to haul around but its not gonna kick.

interested in what weight you see in originals in the heavier calibres? the couple I have seen would be 15 pound guns I reckon

The replicas (particularly Italian) in 45/120 have been mean and nasty too light to be fun. ten pound not enough for that cartridge.

[missionary5155]

With the caliber.50 brass to cut powder volume 1/2 " O/D copper tubing will reduce it fast. Cut your length so the cast base butts up against it.
1st shot the tubing will expand to the case firm. Can always ream the tubing for more powder. With smokeless I doubt you will need it..
Sitting behind Cross Sticks will be real friendly to your body. I will never shoot our 50-100 off a bench or laying down even with a 525 sppb cast of 40-1.

[Gunlaker]

Yeah I realise that ......me point was a gun that weight might be a tad inconvenient to haul around but its not gonna kick.

interested in what weight you see in originals in the heavier calibres? the couple I have seen would be 15 pound guns I reckon

The replicas (particularly Italian) in 45/120 have been mean and nasty too light to be fun. ten pound not enough for that cartridge.

There were some heavy original rifles made. The rifle in the link below, and work by Kenny, is what inspired the NRA Tollofson class BPTR rifles.

They are a pile of fun to shoot.

http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8689

Chris.

[Rockindaddy]

Wow Ken:
you are good! Not too many Sharps experts out there who would know that Sharps didn't make a sporting rifle in 50-70 Govt. It was the US Arsenals that converted the 1863 Sharps carbines from the 54 cal percussion to the new 50-70 Govt metallic cartridge in 1868. 50-70 is a good choice for shooting 4759, 4198, 4227, 5744, and Reloader No7. My original 1874 Sharps was poked out to 50-140. Too much gun for shooting PA whitetails!

[Drydock]

Send it to C Sharps and have it rebarrelled to 50-70.

[indian joe]

With the caliber.50 brass to cut powder volume 1/2 " O/D copper tubing will reduce it fast. Cut your length so the cast base butts up against it.
1st shot the tubing will expand to the case firm. Can always ream the tubing for more powder. With smokeless I doubt you will need it..
Sitting behind Cross Sticks will be real friendly to your body. I will never shoot our 50-100 off a bench or laying down even with a 525 sppb cast of 40-1.

best suggestion so far

gotta be a dozen blokes read this and go "why didnt i think of that"

[firefly1957]

In 1985 before Quigley went down under I ordered a Sharps 1874 from Sharps Shiloh $961 as ordered and 6 weeks to my gun dealer.
I ordered a 34" #1 barrel taper 50- 3 1/4" chambered for paper patch with a globe front and a tang rear sight. I also got a Lyman Paper patch adjustable mold .
My gun is a 1-36 twist the full length of the Lyman mold gives 712 grains and the bullets are a bit sideways at 100 yards all bullets point to the center of group with a three inch group . I have never fired the gun further on targets . Last loads I loaded used 150 Grains (weight) of Swiss 1 1/2 F G under the 712 grain paper patch bullet , velocity is 1627 f/s . The Lyman Mold turned in all the way produces a 440 grain bullet that shoots better around 550 grains seems the best weight .
Only one year did I hunt with the gun and black powder I used 140 grains Goex (volume and weight were the same) and a 500 grain paper patch bullet . Only thing shot that year was at a 50 yard away red squirrel that was fighting with a fox squirrel . The red squirrel was hit in the chest while standing on hind feet I was shooting down hill and the squirrel was head down in the crater the bullet made just past were it was standing. When the smoke cleared the fox squirrel was gone no thank you or anything!
I normally hunt with a 50-70 bullet (Palmetto Mould) it is the same as Lyman manual has listed weight is 450 grains or less depending on alloy. The SR 4759 load you saw in Lyman book gives very consistent 1725 f/s just a couple f/s each side of that. The filler is to keep the powder on the primer it has never caused me an issue or created any bad fouling of bore. 2 inch 100 yard groups were easy with the load . I took two deer with it a buck at 70 yards and a doe at 150 yards standing off hand .
When I switched out from the 500 grain Black powder hunting load I took the gun to a muzzle loading league shoot and asked if it could be fired with a yes I asked others if they wanted to shoot it . Three of us fired at a 50 yard target standing off hand all three bullets touched on the target Neither person wanted a second shot ! I fired the rest of about 15 shells I was smart enough to fire my muzzle loader for score first so I would not be flinching that recoil will wear you down .

I am not sure about suggesting anything on powder under that heavy bullet Hopefully someone can help you out on that The gun is stronger then many people think . Look though the pages here you may find another that has worked it out also search the web we are not alone shooting this long case.