Brass Prep for 38 Spl match/target loads

[AlanF]

In the search for ultimate accuracy from your S&W Model 14 or other target handgun what prep do you do to your brass - trim for uniform length? - uniform primer pockets? - deburr flash holes? - other?

[georgerkahn]

In the search for ultimate accuracy from your S&W Model 14 or other target handgun what prep do you do to your brass - trim for uniform length? - uniform primer pockets? - deburr flash holes? - other?

To/for me, .38 S&W Special has had but one problem, this being necks splitting. In revolvers like your Model14, I should think case length would be a consideration -- noteworthy when you crimp, as even slightly different case lengths would result ('ceptin using Lee Factory Crimp dies) in different crimps on your bullets. I am a bit OCD and have used the specialized flash hole debur tools with my 99% unscientific comparisons seeing zero result in performance from this effort. However, I have found it imperative to use a primer-bottom cleaner/uniformalizer to attain best uniform accuracy. 308384308385 There are quite a few products out there, and (I don't recall who makes it) my favourite is a hand-held goodie called a "Crocodizer" -- basically a primer-sized piece of hardened steel with a machined end you twist in primer pocket to clean all residue from previous firings without changing actual depth.
geo

[country gent]

I trim the brass to a uniform length, and deburr the flash holes, throw charges with a harrels measure a shutzen version. Charge is 2.7 grns of bullseye. I have a modified expander that opens the brass to .358 with a very slight flair. I want the wadcutter to drop in just shy of half way with little force. I then seat the bullet to depth and a medium crimp. The bullet is a Star, Nationalm ( both closed now) or Hornady hollow based wadcutter.

I use a little heavier crimp to aid feeding as my target 38 is a 1911 in 38 spl.

The bigger expander allows easy straight seating of the bullet with out distortion, allows it to seat straighter, and the slightly bigger case fits my chamber better.

This is a very accurate load in my pistol, with very light recoil. It shoots very well in all my 38s from snubies to full size

[Winger Ed.]

Get a batch of once fired .38s with the same history and head stamp.
Process and load them with the same care like you would rifle cases for hunting.

[725]

I trim, wash with "Lemi-Shine" / Dawn dish soap, flash hole uniform, Q-tip the primer pocket (while still wet), anneal & chamfer. FL size and expander die. Some times I toss 'em in the tumbler with "Nu-Finish" for a good polish. Don't do this all the time but when a new batch of brass if acquired or I really want it all to perform at it's best I do the above. ?Does it make it shoot better? I don't know, but I like it better and that's enough for me.

[AlanF]

Thank you guys. I will be trimming for uniform length and will do both deburring flash holes and uniform primer pockets for the benefits and it is a good way so spend a winter day (its snowing and bitterly cold). I have a .358 expander mandrel coming from RCBS.

[georgerkahn]

Thank you guys. I will be trimming for uniform length and will do both deburring flash holes and uniform primer pockets for the benefits and it is a good way so spend a winter day (its snowing and bitterly cold). I have a .358 expander mandrel coming from RCBS.

A friend (sadly, now deceased) was a U S Olympic shooter, and he brought to my attention something I had not paid any attention to. To wit, the inside of your brass case. He always had a brass cleaning brush chucked in an electric drill and counted several seconds of 'brushing' applied to each fired case before any reloading process. With new brass (duh) this is moot -- but, albeit I personally have not gotten to do this -- there maybe some credence to so doing. It kind of makes sense if one is really, really seeking perfection?
geo

[jonp]

Not much other than the previous posters. Tumble the brass, trim to uniform length, clean out the primer pocket. I do not weigh the brass but I do segregate by manu. Weigh the powder charge on a GemTech 250 if I'm really trying hard and weight the boolits, of course. I also use a Lee Factory Crimp to make sure all are the same and measure with a caliper to check seating depth on each one. The boolits it likes seems to be WC Lee's or a single cavity Lyman I picked up somewhere. If I do my part the gun shoot's into a quarter at a decent distance.

As for brass type I have found either Starline or Winchester works the best for some reason with Starline the best. No idea why but after several thousand target rounds using Promo this is just what works. Bullseye, Unique, Target, Universal, Titegroup, 231 etc all give good results but Promo for the win.

[uscra112]

One thing that made a discernible difference to my Colt Officers Model was to be sure that all the brass was at the same state of temper. Thus it all expanded to a uniform ID during processing. Starting with a batch of new brass will ensure this.

[M-Tecs]

More quality trigger time will be the most beneficial. Nothing wrong with doing full match prep unless it limits your trigger time. Producing 3/4 MOA ammo verse 1 MOA ammo makes little difference if the shooter is shooting 3 MOA groups.

Easy to test. Do full match prep on some same headstamp new brass and shoot some groups. Do the same with some range brass mixed headstamp range brass and see what difference it makes?

[Mk42gunner]

I've got a Model 14, -4 IIRC, 8 3/8". I loaded with run of the mill bought from a gun show "once fired" brass.

I am not looking for match accuracy, I don't know of any bullseye matches within driving distance so mine are more or less field loads.

If I were to go for the utmost accuracy, I would buy a new batch of Starline brass and load it. Every piece of Starline that I have measured with my ball mike has 0.010" case walls deep enough for a WC.

Robert

[deltaenterprizes]

Mk4gunner brings up a good point about the wall thickness of the brass!
Wadcutter brass has a thin wall the depth of a wadcutter.
It usually has a cannelure midway down the case.
I have cut brass lengthwise to confirm this.
Regular brass starts to get thicker about 3/8” down the case.

[dverna]

More quality trigger time will be the most beneficial. Nothing wrong with doing full match prep unless it limits your trigger time. Producing 3/4 MOA ammo verse 1 MOA ammo makes like difference if the shooter is shooting 3 MOA groups.

Easy to test. Do full match prep on some same headstamp new brass and shoot some groups. Do the same with some range brass mixed headstamp range brass and see what difference it makes?

That makes too much sense.

[ABJ]

Alan, As another Bullseye shooter I agree with everything in your op. In addition to that I size and deprime then tumble in fine walnut. It does slow down the loading process to make sure the flash hole is not plugged but tends to clean the bottom of the primer pocket, which matters if your hammer spring has been lightened. The other thing I have noticed is you need to play with the crimp to see what each gun/case combo does the best. As far as cases go, Federal wadcutter, regular Federal, RP wadcutter, Winchester wadcutter in this order works best in our models 14 and 15.
Side note, We have quit shooting wadcutters in favor of the Lee 105 grain SWC. with right around 4.0 HP-38. Just as accurate and less recoil than the standard 2.7/2.8 bullseye and 148 gr wadcutters. Also the 105 carries better at 50 yds for us.
Good luck, Tony

[AlanF]

ABJ - Thank you for the bullet recommendation. Do you use a 2-cavity or a 6-cavity mold? I have read so many poor reviews of the Lee 2-cavity molds that I am hesitant to buy one. However, I ladle pour and no too sure about using a ladle on the 6-cavity mold.

[atr]

I shoot 38 spl in a S&W model 14.
I separate by manufacture and clean up the primer holes. I'm not fussy about case length.

[Bmi48219]

Using one HS of brass works for me. If you’re shooting WC’s you’ll want WC brass. Most of the WC brass you’ll find has an interior profile made for DEWC’s. HBWC brass (two cannelure rings) has an interior made for HBWCs. Case trimming makes for consistent crimping. Wet tumbling with pins will take care of internal case and primer pocket cleaning. Single sourcing primers probably helps too.
I am by no means a match shooter. But like everything else related to accuracy, consistence (in loading) is key to consistent results. I can’t say that all my efforts in that direction result in a notable improvement in accuracy, but they may offset some of my faults

[45DUDE]

That makes too much sense.

I 100% agree with post #10 And you need a good gun. Some 6'' model 19's will shoot wadcutters like a good target gun. One of my shooting buddy's has one. He can't shoot it but won't sell it to me. You have to have bench time to to get good groups. It took me maybe 15 years to start getting 1 1/2'' groups every week.

[SSGOldfart]

practice makes perfect
I tend to go with perfect practice makes perfect
trigger time is the biggest secret as is hitting the Point of aim. groups are a good measure,of how good your gun and ammo shoots but hitting POA is the secret to bullseye shooting. I believe dry firing and sight picture training helped me a much as any thing. You must have lots of trigger time to put it all together to make perfect practice. Good luck Sorry their is no secret prep to making the match 38 spl.

[tazman]

More quality trigger time will be the most beneficial. Nothing wrong with doing full match prep unless it limits your trigger time. Producing 3/4 MOA ammo verse 1 MOA ammo makes little difference if the shooter is shooting 3 MOA groups.

Easy to test. Do full match prep on some same headstamp new brass and shoot some groups. Do the same with some range brass mixed headstamp range brass and see what difference it makes?

So very true.
I started out with a Model 14 and a model 15 S&W. I still have both weapons.
I purchased a large lot of wadcutter brass from a person on this site and did the full match prep and loaded with factory match wadcutters. The groups were only slightly better than my cast solid based wadcutters in mixed brass from a rest.
That was eight years ago. Through lots of practice aiming and trigger time, I have improved greatly. I can now tell a greater difference between the "match" ammo and mixed brass practice loads. Still not a lot of difference. Perhaps .25 to .5 inches at 15 yards.
I will never be a good enough shot to compete for score as I am 71 years old tomorrow and my eyesight and other physical characteristics make that a dream beyond reality. Still, I recently shot the best groups of my life, so improving is still an option.
My other shooting hobby is benchrest rimfire shooting. My time spent mastering the trigger pull there has helped with my handgun shooting.


I 100% agree with post #10 And you need a good gun. Some 6'' model 19's will shoot wadcutters like a good target gun. One of my shooting buddy's has one. He can't shoot it but won't sell it to me. You have to have bench time to to get good groups. It took me maybe 15 years to start getting 1 1/2'' groups every week.

The time spent is important. Patience is a virtue here. For some of us it takes a long time to get better. I have been working on this seriously for over 8 years now. I have much improved over the years and continue to improve. I hope to get even better in the coming years although health issues will probably get in the way.

[Alstep]

Happy Birthday Tazman. Keep holding center!

[fecmech]

My only case prep is that they are all the same. I was fortunate to run a Guard pistol team in the 70's and for one match at Ft Drum they issued us Winchester factory wadcutters. I made sure that I got all the brass (Approx 2000) after the match. Other than cleaning the brass occasionally there is no prep. Loading the H&G #50 over 3.1/BE averages 2.5-2.75"@50yds. I use a hard lube in one lube groove to improve accuracy and keep the stickies off the cases. I was never a good enough shot to need a higher level of accuracy than that.

[MT Gianni]

I make sure I am shooting the same brand brass. When I had young eyes it might have mattered, but now I find it doesn't do more than maybe 1/2-1" @ 25 yards. Focusing on bullet alloy, lube type, not overlubing, and a practiced trigger pull and follow through will give you far greater benefits.

[Walks]

When I was small, I watched My Dad cast HBWC from Lyman #358395 molds. I know that the brass he used came from a full case of 1,000rds of Rem Match brass.
Those bullets were cast from a pair of molds, dropped on either side of a small bottom pour pot (Potter's?). Each batch was weighed and separated by weight.
I don't know about case prep. but I do know that Match ammo was assembled using CH custom made dies. This was back when CH was in Gardena, CA where they started. He used a Pre-War Colt Officer Model Match. He brought targets home that had incredibly small one hole groups. I remember that NRA Pistol was 25yrds back then. Try as I might with My M14, I've never bean able to match those groups.

[afish4570]

I recall John Dewey who moved from Ct. to Stamfordville,NY around 1964 ish. He and Ed Shilen were in a joint venture for several years. My ex fatherinlaw bought some stuff for his 222 and he had a tool with J. Dewey marked on and he called it a Crocagator if my memory serves me right. That would be around 1969 or 70????afish4570