Article on Keith SWC in 1911???

[Jtarm]

Somewhere exists an article or thread on loading one of the Keith SWCs (454424 or 452423) for 1911s, but I can’t find it.

Could someone kindly point me to it?

[gunther]

The front driving band is supposed to be throat and bore diameter in either of those designs. You may have a problem with the plunk test in a 1911. Especially a newer production barrel that doesn't have much of a throat. Deep seating with all the driving bands inside the case would avoid this, but the case volume would take a nose dive, and pressures would go sky high. Either bullet works well in a 45acp revolver, but automatics are not their natural home.

[johniv]

The 452423 works for me at 1.200 OAL YMMV

[megasupermagnum]

There have been multiple articles on this. I'm pretty sure Glen Frxell has done one.

@guntger, it's a common bullet in the 1911, especially in the days of bowling pin shooting. They normally feed fine. Some 1911s are not perfect though, so some only like to feed really forgiving bullets.

[txbirdman]

I think our very own Char Gar wrote an article on this very subject many moons ago. Maybe he could be persuaded to post a link to that article.

[35remington]

I would also be leery of deep seating these if the gun would require it. Bigslug did some fiddling around with these and a search with his name on it may yield what you want.

Ultimately there are better 45 ACP bullets like the RCBS 230 CB bullet. Scratch that itch but keep in mind what you are giving away when using such a bullet which is some amount of reliability.

[StrawHat]

I think our very own Char Gar wrote an article on this very subject many moons ago. Maybe he could be persuaded to post a link to that article.


That would be this article,

https://castbulletassoc.org/blog/article/2017/4/67/452423-i-love-you---a-texas-love-story

It caused me to buy a GB mold and it is still one of my favorite boolits for my ACP revolvers.

Kevin

[Bigslug]

I learned A LOT on how a 1911 feeds ammo while writing this one: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?237958-Reliably-Feeding-the-452423-A-Science-Project

Ultimately decided that, while it can be made to work, the 452423 is really NOT what a 1911 wants to eat: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?255216-Feeding-Big-Meplats-in-1911-s-Continued-The-LBT-LFN&p=2951425#post2951425

LOVE the LBT mold and it remains the best feeding 1911 bullet I've encountered, but wanted a tumble lube version, which led to me running a group-buy/creation of the NOE/Ranch Dog TL: https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/bullet-moulds/452-454/tl452-234-rf-bi2/ which ended up with a crimp groove on the clever suggestion of one participant so it could be run in wheelguns.

Satisfactory, but what I've since discovered after careful measuring of my LBT bullet is that the Accurate 45-230H is pretty much EXACTLY the LBT profile with a tumble lube groove format. Gonna get around to ordering that before long.

The short version is that the LBT profile gives up about .02"-.04" in meplat to the 452423, but you can FEEL the guns struggling to get that big nose up the ramp, nosed down, and into the chamber. The term I've used for how the LBT feeds is "slick as greased eel boogers". The pistols feel as if the slide is going forward onto an empty chamber - that's how little resistance they give.

I LIKE the 452423 as a wheelgun projectile for it's purity of purpose - it isn't trying to by a hybrid, long range/hunting slug like the 454424. Nope. It's all about short range, maximum blunt force trauma down in the classic .44 Special / .455 Webley performance envelope. (I think Elmer was probably pissed off at the world when he designed it LOL). Unfortunately, it's not an autoloader bullet, and my autoloaders have told me so.

Hope all that helps you out.:drinks:

[Kosh75287]

I'm not sure if a request was made for loading data, I suggest using data for the Speer 260 gr. JHP in .45 ACP. Using Green Dot, Unique, or Herco, I obtained best results with charge weights ranging from the midway point to about the 3/4ths point.

[45DUDE]

That would be this article,

https://castbulletassoc.org/blog/article/2017/4/67/452423-i-love-you---a-texas-love-story

It caused me to buy a GB mold and it is still one of my favorite boolits for my ACP revolvers.

Kevin

Thanks -Good read-I'm looking for a long Colt on the back burner. I have a 452460 Lyman mold that drops a .456 bollit at 245 grains. I had a machine shop make the nose larger on the end but not longer. It works good in a Kimber and prints 4'' or so higher over a 200 grain. I am not against A Ruger but the Smiths have a lot better trigger. I haven't owned a 45 LC in a while because I had a 44 mag I liked.

[Jtarm]

That would be this article,

https://castbulletassoc.org/blog/article/2017/4/67/452423-i-love-you---a-texas-love-story

It caused me to buy a GB mold and it is still one of my favorite boolits for my ACP revolvers.

Kevin

Thank you, sir!

[Jtarm]

I learned A LOT on how a 1911 feeds ammo while writing this one: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?237958-Reliably-Feeding-the-452423-A-Science-Project

Ultimately decided that, while it can be made to work, the 452423 is really NOT what a 1911 wants to eat: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?255216-Feeding-Big-Meplats-in-1911-s-Continued-The-LBT-LFN&p=2951425#post2951425

LOVE the LBT mold and it remains the best feeding 1911 bullet I've encountered, but wanted a tumble lube version, which led to me running a group-buy/creation of the NOE/Ranch Dog TL: https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/bullet-moulds/452-454/tl452-234-rf-bi2/ which ended up with a crimp groove on the clever suggestion of one participant so it could be run in wheelguns.

Satisfactory, but what I've since discovered after careful measuring of my LBT bullet is that the Accurate 45-230H is pretty much EXACTLY the LBT profile with a tumble lube groove format. Gonna get around to ordering that before long.

The short version is that the LBT profile gives up about .02"-.04" in meplat to the 452423, but you can FEEL the guns struggling to get that big nose up the ramp, nosed down, and into the chamber. The term I've used for how the LBT feeds is "slick as greased eel boogers". The pistols feel as if the slide is going forward onto an empty chamber - that's how little resistance they give.

I LIKE the 452423 as a wheelgun projectile for it's purity of purpose - it isn't trying to by a hybrid, long range/hunting slug like the 454424. Nope. It's all about short range, maximum blunt force trauma down in the classic .44 Special / .455 Webley performance envelope. (I think Elmer was probably pissed off at the world when he designed it LOL). Unfortunately, it's not an autoloader bullet, and my autoloaders have told me so.

Hope all that helps you out.:drinks:

Which LBT bullet are you using? The LFN?

The NOE mould looks awesome, but sold out.

[DougGuy]

This says about all that's needed to be said to get the 452423 or any of the other K style LSWC boolits to work flawlessly in the 1911:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?329223-Kudos-to-DougGuy

Stock Springfield RO barrel on left, same barrel after throating on the right:

308392

The throated barrel will plunk and feed anything that will cycle through the magazine, as long as it is no larger than .452"

Here's the last page of the sticky on 1911 throating, this is a good thread too:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?232061-1911-Throating/page4

[35remington]

The problem with getting the gun to run “flawlessly” isn’t just about getting them to seat fully into the chamber, it’s also in getting them to feed while having to navigate the whole feeding process from magazine to frame ramp to seating fully in the chamber. It is a multi part process.

I got a lot smarter when I realized the proper process was giving the 1911 the bullet design it wanted to feed well rather than whatever bullet I wanted to shoot in it. The 1911 has preferences in overall length and ogive shape that make it work correctly. Cater to those and you will have a more reliable gun. Ignore it and you have a paperweight.

[megasupermagnum]

The problem with getting the gun to run “flawlessly” isn’t just about getting them to seat fully into the chamber, it’s also in getting them to feed while having to navigate the whole feeding process from magazine to frame ramp to seating fully in the chamber. It is a multi part process.

I got a lot smarter when I realized the proper process was giving the 1911 the bullet design it wanted to feed well rather than whatever bullet I wanted to shoot in it. The 1911 has preferences in overall length and ogive shape that make it work correctly. Cater to those and you will have a more reliable gun. Ignore it and you have a paperweight.

Well, yes and no. The 1911 is such a broad subject in itself today with the massive aftermarket out there. I mean you can get 1911's that feed full wadcutter ammo. Then there are certain, especially older 1911's that will only shoot ball rounds, nothing else. Today most manufacturers are making 1911's with magazines and feed ramps that will cycle hollow points, otherwise nobody would buy them.

It seems to me a 1911 can cycle anything, but its design is such that there are so many factors. Its such a farcry from today's designs that really just need to make it up a ramp. In a 1911 the magazine follower and feed lips have to be right. The frame ramp has to be just right. The barrel ramp has to be just right. Even the extractor has to be just right. Yes the cartridge matters, but if they can feed hollow points, they should be able to feed a Keith SWC. A 1911 that will feed flat nosed or HP bullets will do it.

[Bigslug]

Which LBT bullet are you using? The LFN?

The NOE mould looks awesome, but sold out.

Indeed - the LFN:

308409

Done properly (as the LBT bullet is) there is little or no contacting of the frontal flat or its corners with the barrel or ramp during the feed process. It's one oblique hit on the ogive on the ramp, and then another at the top of the chamber during nose-down, and the bullet makes that trip pretty much unaltered. The COAL is also a no-brainer - seat it to where the .452" diameter ends and the nose taper starts right at the case mouth. Part of my 452423 experimentation was to eject a chambered round to see which type of magazine resulted is a SMALLER denting of the 6:00 edge of the meplat. The amount of that denting also changed depending on whether it was the first round in the mag or the last. As I said in my last post, the feel of how the gun runs pretty much said it all. When you compare the 452423 to the LBT or just GI hardball, the Keith bullet has a considerable "hitchy-kerchunky" thing going on, even though it's technically "running well" in the sense that the gun makes it successfully through its cycle of operation.

I arrived at the conclusion that the .30"-.32" meplat .45 LFN profile was about as good as it got for destructive capability with a non-expanding bullet that adhered to the parameters of what a 1911 wants to eat. The .34" meplat of the Keith, along with some misinterpretation of available data on its background was what sucked me in, but like Jeff Goldblum said of the cloning of dinosaurs, just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.

The Accurate 45-230H that I'm planning to order. . .On measuring my LBT bullets against the 230H's blueprint, they're carbon copies of each other to within a thousandth or so at each of data points, and the only significant difference seems to be the TL grooves. I've pretty much concluded that life it too short to run a lube sizer where it isn't needed, and that this should therefore be the LAST .45 ACP mold I'll ever need.[smilie=1:

[Jtarm]

This says about all that's needed to be said to get the 452423 or any of the other K style LSWC boolits to work flawlessly in the 1911:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?329223-Kudos-to-DougGuy

Stock Springfield RO barrel on left, same barrel after throating on the right:

308392

The throated barrel will plunk and feed anything that will cycle through the magazine, as long as it is no larger than .452"

Here's the last page of the sticky on 1911 throating, this is a good thread too:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?232061-1911-Throating/page4

Have you considered writing a book, Doug? All this knowledge needs to be preserved.

What is the “BDacp” bullet?

[35remington]

While hollowpoint designs have been tweaked to allow more reliable feeding through the incorporation of more curved ogives the caution against expecting everything to feed well still applies. The gun is not favorably disposed to do so. Blunt and short is especially anathema to a 1911. A more complete understanding of 1911 feeding dynamics explains why this is so.

Kachunky feeding is a particular warning sign. Again, it is what the gun wants, not whatever you can hand drop into the chamber or magazine. Expecting all sorts of unsuitable bullets to feed is a pipe dream.

The old saw about the gun “feeding empty cases” is a misunderstanding about how the gun is intended to feed. Believe me….the gun wasn’t designed to do so, and it is no black mark if it does not. Merely a misunderstanding of why it is desirable, which of course it is not, as the gun is often compromised in feeding correct overall length rounds if it does so.

Think about why it is undesirable that the gun feeds cases only, and that nobody needs to feed an empty case for any reason whatsoever. 1911s that feed wadcutter ammo have tweaks unnecessary for proper ammo and have altered frame ramps, extractor modifications and magazine modifications that often make them less reliable than when using more suitable ammo. All this modification and expense is unnecessary had the proper bullet and overall length been used in the first place.

The right thing to do is a lot cheaper than throwing hundred of dollars at a pistol so it can feed nonstandard ammo most of the time instead of the correct ammo all of the time. The benefit of doing so is nonexistent for any normal use.

All these mods serve to lighten your pocket while adding little to the utility of the gun.

[Bigslug]

I would also add to heed the warnings about reduced case volume with the Keith. It gets seated pretty much to the end of the driving bands in order to chamber without a throating job, and the feed dynamics will try to shove it deeper on ramp impact as well. I had one case head burst during the trials that drew blood with it's shrapnel. Also, check your weights. A lot of the classic blueprints for the 452423 claim 238 grains. In pure linotype, maybe, but closer to or exceeding 250 has been my experience with both rounded and square lube groove versions.

Now if you have a Smith 1917 or .45 Colt laying around, you can't deny it has a certain presence (2nd from right)

308414

To the immediate left of the Keith is the LBT, and to the left of that is an Accurate 45-230F. Not a bad option either, with the nose step intended to give the 1911's slide stop lever a little more clearance.

[Jtarm]

I would also add to heed the warnings about reduced case volume with the Keith. It gets seated pretty much to the end of the driving bands in order to chamber without a throating job, and the feed dynamics will try to shove it deeper on ramp impact as well. I had one case head burst during the trials that drew blood with it's shrapnel. Also, check your weights. A lot of the classic blueprints for the 452423 claim 238 grains. In pure linotype, maybe, but closer to or exceeding 250 has been my experience with both rounded and square lube groove versions.

Now if you have a Smith 1917 or .45 Colt laying around, you can't deny it has a certain presence (2nd from right)

308414

To the immediate left of the Keith is the LBT, and to the left of that is an Accurate 45-230F. Not a bad option either, with the nose step intended to give the 1911's slide stop lever a little more clearance.

Thanks much for all your info!

Looks like the LBT is the way to go.

[Char-Gar]

I don't pretend to have all the mechanical wisdom about the 1911 pistol, that some on this thread have. I can tell you, that with a throated barrel and the 452423 seated out, as per my post to DougGuy, the pistol and load will do a grand job at killing White Tail deer at reasonable ranges. I suspect it would put a human down pretty quick with a fair hit. For social purposes, I would trust it more than a JHP.

I do realized the BD and other newer designs with a big meplat and rounded shoulders would probably work as well, but I have no need to buy new molds that will do the same as 452423.

[johniv]

The #452423 feeds smoothly in one of my 1911’s, and very rough in another. Feels like pushing a piano down a gravel road.

[megasupermagnum]

I don't pretend to have all the mechanical wisdom about the 1911 pistol, that some on this thread have. I can tell you, that with a throated barrel and the 452423 seated out, as per my post to DougGuy, the pistol and load will do a grand job at killing White Tail deer at reasonable ranges. I suspect it would put a human down pretty quick with a fair hit. For social purposes, I would trust it more than a JHP.

I do realized the BD and other newer designs with a big meplat and rounded shoulders would probably work as well, but I have no need to buy new molds that will do the same as 452423.

I don't know hardly anything about the guts of a 1911, but what I do know is you can't make statements like "A 1911 can't feed so and so bullet, it just isn't made for it." There is such a wide variety of styles and design changes to the 1911 that you simply can't say it will or wont work. Most of us that shoot newer design 1911's find they have zero issues with hollow point and flat nosed bullets, same as you found. They aren't the same guns that John Browning designed for ball rounds either.

[35remington]

I can say certain combinations are much more likely to work reliably. Stray towards blunt and short and things are more likely to go pear shaped.

[44MAG#1]

Double Tap offers a 255 grain SWC +P load for the 45 Auto.
I wonder if they sell any?
BTW
Their website says out of stock. That could mean popularity or if they had made one box and it was sold the ammo could then be out of stock after selling that one box.
How does one interpret "out of stock"? Meaning none left of many boxes due to being popular or one box made and sold due to low sales and near non existent popularity?